fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

3 … 5 6 end

Archive 2012 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

vovkinson
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #1 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Thanks AMaji!

AMaji wrote:
No, it is the same as D700. However, that is an improvement over D300. The focus confirmation on the D800 view finder look like > o < . So, the < and > helps you to know when you are nearing focus as the o indicates focus. The D300 just had o, which was a little bit of a pain.

If you really want SLR style MF, I think replacement screens from Katzeye should help. I am not sure if they have the one for D800 yet or not, but eventually they will have it and it is a great...Show more →

May 17, 2012 at 02:25 PM

rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #2 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

FlyPenFly wrote:
I also read the Mk3 has better build quality and weather sealing, not sure if that's true.

According to Roger at Lensrentals, when he did the 5DIII strip down, he didn't notice any specific weather seals, though that doesn't mean the III isn't better built than the II.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/04/5d-iii-strip-tease

wayne seltzer wrote:
The LV implementation of the D800 is the weakest point, and makes focusing a little harder with LV compared to my 1ds3 but I can live with it.

Thanks Wayne, this is interesting considering the 1DsIII's LCD is 230K, same as my 1DIII, which I never found great for live view with certain lenses with shallow depth of field. It's kind of unfortunate Nikon goofed this part, though sounds like it isn't absolutely unusable.

May 17, 2012 at 02:28 PM

Guest

Guest

p.2 #3 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
Since you are already invested in Canon, why wouldn't you just pick up a 5DIII?
If the question is addressed to me I may answer it. Actually atm I have 5Dc and 24-70L so it's just a little of investments to make me to investigate more precisely benefits of both camps. Moreover lenses are the same for both. I do appreciate Canon ergonomics and grip however it's a matter of habit.

May 17, 2012 at 03:09 PM

carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #4 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Hmm, actually it wasn't addressed to you, but rather to Wayne, who is significantly more invested in Canon, but all the same I feel that you didn't really answer it!

You only told me that you have just one lens and some habits. Why do you prefer the D800 over the 5DIII?

May 17, 2012 at 03:14 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #5 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
Hmm, actually it wasn't addressed to you, but rather to Wayne, who is significantly more invested in Canon, but all the same I feel that you didn't really answer it!

You only told me that you have just one lens and some habits. Why do you prefer the D800 over the 5DIII?

i'm not in the market for either, but it seems pretty clear the d800 has a better sensor, especially for landscape. that would be reason enough for me assuming the ergonomics weren't a total disaster.

May 17, 2012 at 03:25 PM

carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #6 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

What I don't quite get at the moment, is that both online and in print magazines around here, for all the touted benefits of the D800, the 5DIII often manages to get the better review score. I really don't understand this, since the 5DIII is a tidied up 5DII, but the D800 is a large leap forward in DR, detail, resolution and so on. I could understand if the benefits of the D800 only amounted to a slightly better score than the 5DIII, but the other way around just baffles me. It seems as if it doesn't matter what Nikon does, the Canon will score better. What gives? Where is the Canon so much better that it more than outweighs the additional IQ benefits of the Nikon? The weird thing is that the better score often isn't even properly explained. You read the article, look through all the subcategories, and still don't understand why the Canon outgunned the Nikon.

The same thing was true in 5DII vs. D700 days, where the Canon got slightly better scores. One could understand this, what with video and higher resolution, but the IQ was also severely compromised, with noise in the shadows even at base ISO, and the typical Canon nuclear reds. So now that the two cameras have more or less switched strengths, why does the Canon still win?

Colour me baffled. Am I missing something, or is the entire industry really that crooked?

May 17, 2012 at 03:42 PM

FlyPenFly
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #7 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Who has a bigger marketing/press budget? Nikon or Canon?

I have some first hand experience of providers of review gear generally not ever getting bad reviews. Its usually returned if an item will get a bad review and often reviews are edited down to reflect advertiser reality.

May 17, 2012 at 03:48 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #8 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
What I don't quite get at the moment, is that both online and in print magazines around here, for all the touted benefits of the D800, the 5DIII often manages to get the better review score. I really don't understand this, since the 5DIII is a tidied up 5DII, but the D800 is a large leap forward in DR, detail, resolution and so on. I could understand if the benefits of the D800 only amounted to a slightly better score than the 5DIII, but the other way around just baffles me. It seems as if it doesn't matter what Nikon...Show more →

don't know, that is news to me � i never read the numeric score sections of reviews (or even conclusions usually). i just look at test images and reviews of specific components i'm interested in.

May 17, 2012 at 03:49 PM

wfrank
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #9 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Maybe people take images and value craft and aesthetics rather than get religious in DXOmark scores?

May 17, 2012 at 03:59 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #10 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

wfrank wrote:
Maybe people take images and value craft and aesthetics rather than get religious in DXOmark scores?

such people are not the same sorts who write reviews.

i must say i've only ever actually visited dxomark's site once myself (4 years ago), so i'm not clear on what exactly they do over there, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't interest me.

May 17, 2012 at 04:07 PM

carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #11 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Wilhelm, this is not my usual Canon-bashing, this is just me going through a WTF thing.

Are you saying that the D800 doesn't take images, not does it have value craft? Or whatever, I don't quite understand your sentence.

I understand that sometimes the Canon is better, sometimes the Nikon. I also understand that changing the reviewer can change which camera "wins". All that is fine. Both are great cameras.

What I don't understand is why the 5DII beats out the D700 due to higher resolution and better video (D700 = none), but the 5DIII beats out the D800 in spite of lower resolution and less impressive video features (no uncompressed HDMI out and so on). It is as if the measuring stock changes to favour Canon here.

I could understand if certain magazines or certain reviewers or whatever would prefer the Canon. What I don't understand that in spite of what is on the surface a massive improvement in the D800, which not only has higher de facto resolution, but also higher DR, cleaner shadows even at base ISO, and better per-pixel sharpness, it still loses out as the better camera everywhere. I can make a list of about 5 German magazines, all top titles, and all of them have the 5DIII come out 1-2% better in the final score, and don't properly come out and say why.

I can also point at several online video reviews (DRTV, thecamerashop, and some others) which compare both directly, score up several solid wins for the Nikon, and then go on to say that they prefer the Canon, without properly justifying it. One says that the AF is slightly faster on the 5DIII, which may be the case (although faster AF didn't make the D700 beat the 5DII for the same outfits), and so on, but the whole thing just makes no sense. I just really really don't understand what is going on.

If you compare MFT vs. NEX, then some will prefer MFT because of this, some NEX because of that. If you compare A900 vs. D3x, some prefer A900 due to colour, others D3x due to other things, and so on, but for some reason, I have real trouble finding any supposedly neutral review source outright preferring the D800, yet I don't find a solid list of reasons why?

I am not really a paranoid conspiracy theory kind of guy, but this is just too weird, too much of a coincidence.

May 17, 2012 at 04:08 PM

carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #12 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

sebboh wrote:
i must say i've only ever actually visited dxomark's site once myself (4 years ago), so i'm not clear on what exactly they do over there, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't interest me.

DXOMark doesn't make much sense when they put together their compound scores. They don't publicize the formula used, and don't explain how they can take such a large amount of different factors and come out with a single number in the end.

Having said that, their measurement scores are just that. They measure a bunch of stuff, and write what they saw. This part is fine, you just need to know how to read the score, and we are lucky enough to have a bunch of knowledgeable people around here to tell us what the numbers mean.

What baffles me is that the Nikon D800 absolutely slaughters the Canon in almost every sensor category, apart from ISO 6400+ or some such, yet I cannot find a review which comes out and lets the Nikon win, nor can I find one where the Canon wins, and they write a clear explanation of why.

May 17, 2012 at 04:18 PM

wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #13 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

rscheffler wrote:
According to Roger at Lensrentals, when he did the 5DIII strip down, he didn't notice any specific weather seals, though that doesn't mean the III isn't better built than the II.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/04/5d-iii-strip-tease

Thanks Wayne, this is interesting considering the 1DsIII's LCD is 230K, same as my 1DIII, which I never found great for live view with certain lenses with shallow depth of field. It's kind of unfortunate Nikon goofed this part, though sounds like it isn't absolutely unusable.

The LV is definitely usable just weird as there is a delay from time when you adjust the focus ring to when it shows up on the screen so you have to focus slower. It is also fuzzier and as you are looking through a video camera with interpolated lines. My low-res 1ds3 screen is not ideal but it is ok when zoomed in and using my Hoodman Loupe when outdoors which helps magnify things too. I didn't get to try the trick of increasing the jpeg sharpness to max which doesn't affect the RAW shot and helps the LV focusing.
Hardest thing was going through all the steps to configure the camera to work with a MF lens like the ZF21. Had to RTFM. I didn't know the lens aperture had to be on f22, in order for the camera to take a shot. Definitely spoiled with ZE and Canon.

May 17, 2012 at 04:21 PM

wfrank
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #14 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

sebboh wrote:
such people are not the same sorts who write reviews.

i must say i've only ever actually visited dxomark's site once myself (4 years ago), so i'm not clear on what exactly they do over there, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't interest me.

Well if so, you should hail the 5D2, with its flange distance, EG-S and more since you repeatedly posting great inspiration here in the Alt-forum.

I personally have yet to justify the 5D3 over the 5D2. Since quite a while I am into MF and Alt, therefor Nikon is a bad bet (nothing that should be of interest of a general reviewer - a comparison of DXOmark scores make you look much more intelligent). And within Canon, the EOM supported EG-S matte is such an asset for us that use our eyes still.

I do have some irreplaceable L's that could make the difference, perhaps. And also, I do see the superior sensor in the D800 - it would affect 1/10 images I do (read PP) - which is a lot to me. A similar quota has made me buy lenses by the same focal that I already have two copies of. But yet it is not enough for a system switch.

Finally (with Canon-eyes) the Nikons are quirky. I could probably get used to it but there are disturbing reports about LV implementation and AF in case you use that-

A couple of years ago I was about to switch to Nikon (D300s in my case - fast things was my interest), but then the 7D appeared allowing me to keep my lenses. Since then I moved to MF and fast lenses and I go back to square one, the EG-S in my case.

May 17, 2012 at 04:25 PM

carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #15 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Wayne and Wilhelm, yes the line-skipping LV is a really sad thing, but to be honest, although it will surely bother me, I have not seen a single review mention it, apart from DPReview. I hope that Nikon updates the firmware to eliminate it.

The Nikon's AF inferiority (which I have not yet seen demonstrated, nor any numbers put on it, but let's say it is real) appears to be due to a tendency to home in on the right area very quickly, and then spend some time micro-adjusting before being done. This is likely due to the higher resolution of the sensor, especially since Nikon's AF has typically been better than Canons in recent years. I am happy that Canon has finally released a 5D-model with good AF, but I still don't understand how this could be enough to make the Canon win all the reviews. In fact, I have only seen this point being mentioned in the thecamerashop video review. Not only that, but I have seen other reviews claim that the Nikon AF can focus in darker places than the Canon, yet still the Canon wins in the end.

I would really love to know why.

Anyway, I don't want to harp on and on about this point, so I will just drop it now, but if anyone reads this and should know of a review which either has the D800 win over the 5DIII, or has the 5DIII win but provides a solid explanation, then please post a link here.

May 17, 2012 at 04:32 PM

wfrank
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #16 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
Wilhelm, this is not my usual Canon-bashing, this is just me going through a WTF thing.

Are you saying that the D800 doesn't take images, not does it have value craft? Or whatever, I don't quite understand your sentence.
...

Well Carsten, I didnt think so either. On paper the D800 is a better camera in most respects to me, since I am sensor oriented and do PP. But in the Alt world it's more than a draw - more open to discussion. I think you'd agree.

To quote John Cleese in Faulty Towers about what's bleeding obvious the latest (Nikon) camera can produce the most stunning images. But so can the 5D2 and even 12MP cams such as yours or the 5DC. It's not about decimals in a chart.

I am happy you left the Nikon land, it gives you creds

May 17, 2012 at 04:36 PM

itai195
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #17 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Well, Lloyd Chambers outright prefers the D800, and LuLa has basically ignored the 5D3 and is singing the D800's praises. I agree with your general observation though. The optimistic side of me thinks this is just due to Canon's massive mindshare, but the pessimistic side wonders if there's more to it than that.

May 17, 2012 at 04:41 PM

sebboh
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #18 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
What baffles me is that the Nikon D800 absolutely slaughters the Canon in almost every sensor category, apart from ISO 6400+ or some such, yet I cannot find a review which comes out and lets the Nikon win, nor can I find one where the Canon wins, and they write a clear explanation of why.

i'm happy to make a guess as to the reason, though i haven't read any of the reviews of either camera. the canon seems to have no real weaknesses (having a less good sensor does not mean the sensor isn't still awesome). the nikon seems to have a number of problems with poor implementation of features. the canon is a more refined product while the nikon needs some fleshing out to work smoothly despite performing noticeably better in the most important category (image quality).

wfrank wrote:
Well if so, you should hail the 5D2, with its flange distance, EG-S and more since you repeatedly posting great inspiration here in the Alt-forum.

I personally have yet to justify the 5D3 over the 5D2. Since quite a while I am into MF and Alt, therefor Nikon is a bad bet (nothing that should be of interest of a general reviewer - a comparison of DXOmark scores make you look much more intelligent). And within Canon, the EOM supported EG-S matte is such an asset for us that use our eyes still.

i have no interest in any FF cameras currently available unless they are under $1k. they simply have too many things i don't like to justify their price. first of all, they're all too da** big. i've not been impressed with the canon viewfinder (even with the EG-S) and it has mirror conflicts with all the lenses i really want FF for (also not a fan of canon ergonomics). the nikon has a terrible mount for my lenses, terrible focus screens, and terrible liveview (i do like their ergonomics better though).

May 17, 2012 at 04:52 PM

wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #19 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

carstenw wrote:
Wayne and Wilhelm, yes the line-skipping LV is a really sad thing, but to be honest, although it will surely bother me, I have not seen a single review mention it, apart from DPReview. I hope that Nikon updates the firmware to eliminate it.

The Nikon's AF inferiority (which I have not yet seen demonstrated, nor any numbers put on it, but let's say it is real) appears to be due to a tendency to home in on the right area very quickly, and then spend some time micro-adjusting before being done. This is likely due to the higher resolution of...Show more →

There were some good comparison reviews on Youtube between 5d3 and D800 and one of them mentioned details about the poor LV implementation and tricks to improve it. Most of these reviews have hailed both cameras and it is a personal decision whether to switch or not to Nikon. I think nobody doubts the sensor of the D800 is better than the 5d3 and the video and LV implementation is better in the 5d3. Other things like AF and other general camera functionality I would say are equal. Oh, I forgot the 5d3 has the edge in fps in that matters to you.
Having the 1ds3 already, I am not as interested in the better AF of the 5d3 over the 5d2. I have been wanting more resolution and now even more importantly the extra DR and low-noise shadow performance of the D800 sensor is what is most interesting to me and so I will probably order the D800E soon and become a dual platform shooter.
The D800(E) has had a lot press hailing its top of the DSLR IQ performance and mentioning the leading DXO Labs scores. The fact that Nikon kept the price low and didn't increase it is another huge factor too.
Lula(Michael Reichmann), Rob Galbraith, GetDPI guys, Uwe Steinmuller(Outback Photo), etc. are all shooting the D800 right now and praising it.

May 17, 2012 at 05:17 PM

AMaji
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #20 · Nikon D800 + Zeiss ZF lenses - ur experience

Please do not make this a D800 Vs. 5D3 thread. There are enough of those on the Canon forums on DPreview!! I am very impressed with how the 100/2MP ZF.2 performs on my D800. Anyone else with some samples?

May 17, 2012 at 11:57 PM

1 2 3 … 5 6 end
FM Forums \| Leica & Alternative Gear \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 5 6 end