fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6              13       14       end
  

Archive 2012 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread

  
 
phillie5o3
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #1 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


bloop


Apr 08, 2012 at 09:02 PM
aleksanderpolo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #2 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Tariq, do you have raw from other camera+lens you can open in Silkypix, that can form a basis for comparison?


Apr 08, 2012 at 09:31 PM
Mitch Alland
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #3 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


I had a quick look at it at the X-1 Pro at a store last week and found that I would need a diopter adjustment in order to see EVF image clearly — I have normal long vision but need glasses for reading. Here in Bangkok, I don't know how long it would take to get a diopter, as the sales people in the store did not know. My feeling is all cameras with EVF should have a built-on diopter adjustment. The OVF seems somewhat less bright than the M8/M9. Although I don't need a diopter adjustment for the Leica-M viewfinders, it looked to me like the X-1 Pro seemed to have some diopter, which makes me wonder whether the same diopter adjustment would work for me for the EVF and the OVF — is this thought off the wall? What experience do others have with this? I ask because I read somewhere that Fuji had include some weird diopter in this camera, but hope I am not starting a nonsense rumour.

The EVF, in my quick look at the camera, was not that much better than that of the clip-on EVF of the Ricoh GXR. Although the latter is quite workable, I would have preferred an EVF of the quality of the NEX-7. While I don't know how good the M-lens adapter for the X-Pro 1 will be, I am very happy with GXR-M for shooting M-lenses — I particularly like using the Elmarit-21 ASPH with the GXR-M, followed by the CV-15.

While I liked the feel and design of the X-Pro 1, there was nothing that was pushing me to get it now, granted that the lack of diopter adjustment was a put-off. If I did get it, I would use it with the Fuji lenses, and use either AF or pre-focusing (i.e., using the AF to pre-focus). The other thing that attenuates my interest in getting this camera (besides having the GXR-M), is that I recently bought the Ricoh GRD4, which I like a lot and think that it is more of an improvement on the GRD3 than most people think.

—MItch/Bangkok
Tristes Tropiques? No, They Have a Strip Mall in Chiang Mai Too



Apr 08, 2012 at 09:35 PM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #4 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


aleksanderpolo wrote:
Tariq, do you have raw from other camera+lens you can open in Silkypix, that can form a basis for comparison?


I will check. I would imagine Silkypix likely supports at least two or three other camera raws I have.



Apr 08, 2012 at 09:40 PM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #5 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Mitch Alland wrote:
I had a quick look at it at the X-1 Pro at a store last week and found that I would need a diopter adjustment in order to see EVF image clearly — I have normal long vision but need glasses for reading. Here in Bangkok, I don't know how long it would take to get a diopter, as the sales people in the store did not know. My feeling is all cameras with EVF should have a built-on diopter adjustment. The OVF seems somewhat less bright than the M8/M9. Although I don't need a diopter adjustment for the
...Show more

I thought I would need a diopter for the X-Pro1 as I use mild reading glasses and also have to adjust the diopter on pretty much every other camera but I'm not sure I do after using it for a few days now. Re. the EVF, the resolution is not as great as the NEX-7, which I also have, but in other areas, I find the Fuji better. For instance, the NEX-7 EVF has really poor eye relief and, at least with my eye, if it's not exactly in the right position, the image is blurry a bit. Not so with the X-Pro1 EVF. I also suspect the EVF in the X-Pro1 has greater dynamic range than the NEX-7 EVF. This was my impression in bright light outside. All that said, I much prefer the OVF of the X-Pro1 to any EVF. It is much, much brighter in daylight and, of course, crystal clear and REAL! It is claimed that the OVF in the X-Pro1 is a little dimmer than that in the X100 but I have not noticed that myself. It does feel a little smaller/ more cramped than the X100 OVF.



Apr 08, 2012 at 09:52 PM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #6 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Just an update to the extreme watercolor effect I noticed with the jpegs and raws when they are interpolated up to larger sizes. What appears to be going on is some extreme default sharpening/ clarity/ contrast effects which Fuji applies in camera to the jpegs (even with sharpness set to it's minimum setting) and which is the default sharpness setting in Silkypix for the raws. Playing around with all the sharpening options in Silkypix, including applying no sharpening at all, confirms the heavy default processing is the main culprit. The thing is, this extreme default sharpening is also what
...Show more


I think this agrees with what I see. And the SOOC jpegs with 0 settings look like they've had a bit of sharpening and NR applied even at base ISO. Only visible at high magnifications though.



Apr 08, 2012 at 10:41 PM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #7 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


aleksanderpolo wrote:
Tariq, do you have raw from other camera+lens you can open in Silkypix, that can form a basis for comparison?


Apparently, the version of Silkypix bundled with the X-Pro1 is not the general version and does not work with any other raw formats besides Fuji that I can see (I tried Panasonic GH2 raws and Sony Raws). The name of the program is RAW File Converter EX powered by Silkypix so I guess that makes sense as "RAW file converter EX" was the name of Fuji's in house raw program I used years ago with Fuji S2Pro files. So, it's a Fuji Only raw converter and very likely has special processing designed only for the Fuji Raws. I don't think it would have done much good anyway as far as a base comparison in adding multiple variables at once (sensor and lens from another camera). What I will do is compare the Fuji X 35 1.4 lens directly to another lens mounted on the X-Pro1 (I'm waiting on an adapter - not the Fuji X M one as I have that already but a NIkon F to M adapter and a M42 to M adapter). At least that will isolate the lens quality I think.



Apr 08, 2012 at 10:52 PM
aleksanderpolo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #8 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Um, until some major raw developer start supporting XP1's raw, it is rather difficult to say where the "trick" is happening...


Apr 08, 2012 at 11:04 PM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #9 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


aleksanderpolo wrote:
Um, until some major raw developer start supporting XP1's raw, it is rather difficult to say where the "trick" is happening...


All you have to do is process the same X-Pro1 raw file in the Fuji Silkypix converter using different sharpening settings and compare those to using no sharpening. It's pretty obvious this is where the "trick" is occurring on the raws - well, I guess not completely because that watercolor pattern is in the raw file to begin with, it's greatly emphasized by the sharpening. It will also very likely be evident in other raw converters because that is the case with the X100 raws. . Here is what the tool/ parameters look like and the "sharpening" effect can't be exactly replicated only using Photoshops "Smart Sharpen" filter- that's one reason I say "trick" - there is a lot more going on here then just traditional sharpening.
http://www.gibranstudio.com/sharpening.jpg



Apr 08, 2012 at 11:19 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #10 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Don't you like the water-colour effect? The Kodak SLR/n has the same kind of thing, and as soon as you don't look at 100% crops, it looks great, much nicer than normal digital photos.


Apr 09, 2012 at 01:56 AM
kosmoskatten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #11 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


miloz wrote:
If the XPro-1 were $995 it wouldn't exist. That's not a realistic price-point.

I've owned a D700, a Leica M7 and M4, a F100, I've just recently come into a Pentax 645N (which, I wil say, is the most fun to shoot camera I've ever had - 35mm, MF, digital or film, etc.)... the XPro-1 is the equal of any in "build, feel and handling." Equating "build quality" with "weighs a lot" is absurd.

Clicking aperture - just like MFT bodies. No RAW support - Adobe always takes time to catch up. It will be here soon. The 18/2 is getting excellent
...Show more

Of course I am looking for reasons to dislike the X Pro 1, there are enough reasons to like it to go and buy it blind. I am however more interested in shortcomings so that I can work out if I can live with them or not.

Build quality was an unfair comment from me, I admit that. I need to work one beforehand. But if it is anything like the X100 and the X10 I am not convinced, too many rejects on those to receive a well built merit. My shutter button on the X10 fell off. I didn't really do anything like snag it or so. It just fell off. Quality? I equate build quality with cameras like the Nikon F4, Contax RX, RTSII and III and the likes. Fuji has nothing of the same caliber on the market today.

I also think it is fair to question the build quality if you factor in the marvelously built TX-1 and TX-2 from Fuji, rangefinder panoramic cameras. The X Pro 1 seems to be nothing like them in build quality. Look at how much you can get stuffed in a volume selling camera for $995 nowadays, that is a lot.

The 18/2 will get awards for the best lens on the planet - by less discriminating users. For me it fails to deliver something RF wide angle lenses have done for decades on film. So good lens, yes, Great lens, nah.

The 35/1.4 will get well deserved universal praise, I wish I could stick that lens on my camera.

The menu system? Not even top ten. Never will be from Fuji.

itai195 wrote:
It's really easy to just absorb all the negativity when reading an online forum. Before receiving my camera, I was worried that I'd made a terrible mistake. But now that I have received it, I admit that it has its faults, but much of the negativity is overblown. The AF is not in the same class as a DSLR or an E-P3, but it's not even close to unusable. I guess it's subjective, but you should try it and judge for yourself rather than relying solely on a few comments on the web. I guess I just find the complaining
...Show more

The parallax AF point issue is good information, it is something that will help a lot of people out.
I am used to shooting the G2 with a similar problem to be overcome so I guess I would be fine.

I have taken the very ungrateful role of (light oz) hammering the X Pro 1 by pointing out what to me seems like problems and design faults, so not everything is sugar coated with a shimmering glow. But I will refrain from reiterating the same things over from now on, I promise. I am sure new problems will surface from user reports and am not afraid to post those findings here.

/ the Echo chamber



Edited on Apr 09, 2012 at 08:27 AM · View previous versions



Apr 09, 2012 at 02:00 AM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #12 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


kosmoskatten wrote:
I am sure new problems will surface from user reports and am not afraid to post those findings here.



heh thats cool, its not the first time I've bought a crap camera and if this turns out to be crap I'll be the first to admit it.

Till then we'll make sure to balance out your findings with a bit of praise



Apr 09, 2012 at 06:42 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #13 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


carstenw wrote:
Don't you like the water-colour effect? The Kodak SLR/n has the same kind of thing, and as soon as you don't look at 100% crops, it looks great, much nicer than normal digital photos.


Assuming you are being serious, it's a major issue for some of the work I do involving anything larger than native size prints of certain subject matter (landscape with foliage). The effect obliterates the actual detail at the pixel level so that any interpolation up falls apart really fast. It may not effect other subject matter interpolated up - people, man made structures - I don't know yet. It's something I have not seen in other raw files from the cameras I have owned and I don't know yet how to deal with it when I need large landscape prints. When the effect is visible, it looks like a cheap digital filter was applied to certain areas of the image. I really love actually using the X-Pro1 - it is sort of infectious - so if I could solve this issue I might even decide to keep it. I'm afraid though that what I'm seeing is inherent in the raw file and is a processing "trick" Fuji is using to make files look really good at native sizes at the expense of fidelity. The best analogy I can think of is music with lots of loudness, treble and bass applied. Sounds great at normal volumes but the actual nuances are covered up and turning the volume up distorts the hell out of the sound.



Apr 09, 2012 at 08:02 AM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #14 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


I'm afraid it's up to you to play guinea pig Tariq... few people these days make prints, let alone big intrapolated ones, so I wouldnt expect your usual suspects/reviewers/forums to bring up the issue. Why dont you make one and see how it looks from normal viewing distance?

(and if you see people trying to look from closer than that maybe quickly offer them a drink or something )



Apr 09, 2012 at 08:13 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #15 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Spyro P. wrote:
I'm afraid it's up to you to play guinea pig Tariq... few people these days make prints, let alone big intrapolated ones, so I wouldnt expect your usual suspects/reviewers/forums to bring up the issue. Why dont you make one and see how it looks from normal viewing distance?

(and if you see people trying to look from closer than that maybe quickly offer them a drink or something )


Yeah, it has to pass my my quality control before it goes to the gallery.



Apr 09, 2012 at 08:23 AM
kosmoskatten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #16 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Spyro P. wrote:
heh thats cool, its not the first time I've bought a crap camera and if this turns out to be crap I'll be the first to admit it.

Till then we'll make sure to balance out your findings with a bit of praise


Then we see it from the same point of view. Looking forward to your singing the praise.

I am sure the camera isn't crap. I am not sure it is worth the admission yet, especially for the asking price. I have to find that out partially based upon your findings, along with all the other X Pro 1 users who have a non biased approach to their gear. When I get to borrow a kit I need to know what to look for and what can be worked around. Simple as that.

I prefer not having to buy one for myself just to find myself let down, again. I've done my share of being an early adopter, only to find out that I should perhaps have waited a while before taking the plunge. Hence my stern-ish commentary on design flaws and both minor and major faults of the X Pro 1. Some of my early concerns did prove right though some chose not to take notice only to find out for themselves.

Just for the record; I do think it is one of the most exciting new cameras in years. Normally when new cameras are announced I don't even bother to comment.

Tariq; the watercolor effect will definitely be more pronounced if you do up-scaling or a lot of hard core post processing. I think that when you are working within the limits of enlargement of the X Pro 1 the output will be perfectly fine.

Have any of you guys found the Fuji color palette somewhat different? A lot of web samples floating around has magenta like reds and a bluish tint to them. This could boil down to a number of reasons but what do you guys think?

The B&W samples SOOC I have seen so far seem excellent from the X Pro 1.

PS

On the comment "ignoring the internet echo chamber and go out and buy and try for yourself";
exactly how is that helping people to validate the system? That is the single worst piece of advice here so far. So, you advice people to plunge head first into a brand new untried system with a minimum entry fee of $2200 for a camera and a single lens just to buy and try?
I am glad you are not my financial advisor.

If someone points out potential and real flaws in anything I am willing to invest in, I listen.



Apr 09, 2012 at 08:24 AM
kosmoskatten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #17 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


Thanks Jim, for the macro samples.
The lens seems very capable.

Have you done any MF with the macro 60? If so, how does that work out?




Apr 09, 2012 at 08:36 AM
Tariq Gibran
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #18 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


kosmoskatten wrote:
Tariq; the watercolor effect will definitely be more pronounced if you do up-scaling or a lot of hard core post processing. I think that when you are working within the limits of enlargement of the X Pro 1 the output will be perfectly fine.

Have any of you guys found the Fuji color palette somewhat different? A lot of web samples floating around has magenta like reds and a bluish tint to them. This could boil down to a number of reasons but what do you guys think?

The B&W samples SOOC I have seen so far seem excellent from
...Show more

I agree. If you work within it's limits, the IQ looks great. I'm just finding those limits more restrictive than I expected with a sensor with no AA filter and 16MP. I thought it might be on par with something like my old Sony A900 or even the NEX-7 with regard to a files ability to be pushed. I can get gorgeous 30" x 30" prints out of those of trees, etc. Thus far, I'm finding that not possible with the X-Pro1 files...but I'm still testing.

The "issue" with the reds - which I have mentioned numerous times in various threads - I suspect may be somewhat overblown. I now think the rendering of red is an aesthetic choice Fuji has made with ooc jpegs and the various film looks. On occasion, the red channel may blow out with the jpeg film simulation, giving magenta reds but if one shoots raw, I think it's likely a non issue. See my stop sign/ flower example on a previous page. The raw processed file delivers perfect reds as far as I can tell.



Apr 09, 2012 at 09:13 AM
treacle
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #19 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


The Cosina Voigtlander diopters work with the X-Pro1. But for me that was the easiest thing to "fix" about the system. I really wanted to like the X-Pro1 (I've had the X100 for a year) There are so many other great choices for cameras now. I was out with the X-Pro1 and NEX-7 yesterday and I ended up relying on the NEX as I found the focus system of the Fuji quite difficult, I know many people say you can do things to work around this but there are so many other cameras with good focus systems as of now I can't justify keeping a system like this.

Mitch Alland wrote:
I had a quick look at it at the X-1 Pro at a store last week and found that I would need a diopter adjustment in order to see EVF image clearly — I have normal long vision but need glasses for reading. Here in Bangkok, I don't know how long it would take to get a diopter, as the sales people in the store did not know. My feeling is all cameras with EVF should have a built-on diopter adjustment. The OVF seems somewhat less bright than the M8/M9. Although I don't need a diopter adjustment for the
...Show more



Apr 09, 2012 at 09:47 AM
vovkinson
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #20 · The FM X-Pro 1 Thread


I think what Tariq says here makes sense. It's up to you whether to learn from his experience or just ignore it and let Fuji put it's hand into your pocket and grab your hard earned money for half-backed product like XP1.
In addition to that, Fuji already screwed up once with X100 big way (OVF offset error, sticky blades, etc) but it seems they haven't learned nothing from the past and do the same thing with XP1 again.



Apr 09, 2012 at 10:35 AM
1       2       3       4              6              13       14       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6              13       14       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account