Well I finally tried one today at my local shop, would have bought except for 15% restocking fee which is insane. I am not paying $450 to return it when I can order from amazon. I like to shop local but I'm not sold on the camera.
Anyway, my quick take compared to the X100 which I've had about 5 months.
1) faster in all areas of operation
2) I could cause the AF to fail if I wanted, same as x100
3) rear LCD is really nice
4) manual focus seemed better with the 35mm than x100
5) q menu is nice
Tariq yep it doesnt seem to upres very nicely ...
I remember in the other thread we discussed this months ago when then fuji first uploaded full res samples, we could see the squigly pixels in extreme crops (pretty sure you commented on it too ?)
It looks shit, but I'm not sure it's worse than the Nex crop which looks like a mush.
I doubt if fuji or anyone would bother fixing something like this, after all it's only visible in magnifications beyond the camera's spec.
SpyroP: yes, it might be a lesser problem. Many of the anomalies at 100% pixel peeping will not show in print. However it is always nice to look at "pixel perfect" files at 100%, and I am sure those will print a little bit better when you need to work the images a little.
Some of the X Pro 1 problems that have surfaced are the slow start ups, lock ups and freezes, This is something a few reviewers have already pointed out but it is something that many seem to disregard, or simply don't want to hear. This, coupled with spotty AF (even in decent light) indicates a system that needs a major overhaul.
To me, this rings warning bells all over as it is very annoying and it will cause missed images, frustration and possibly some trips back to the dealer for warranty service, where they will fail to reproduce the problem and send it back as within specs/no fault.
This is not a system I would buy into, my X10 is throwing fits every now and then, but I only use the camera as my play camera so I can live with it, even though the camera actually fails to deliver at times due to electronic glitches. This would be unacceptable for me if I had chosen the X Pro 1 route.
This is also my past experience from being in the middle end of handling (not only, but in this case) Fuji products as being the actual sales rep that has had to fill out the warranty/repair forms. This is why I didn't bite the bait when the X Pro 1 was announced, even though hope was always there from my side that they would hit a home run and put the past behind them, but in the digital arena I have seen Fuji as something like a Lemon factory, and they have proved me right once again by continuing to squeeze out lemons.
I do have some inside information but it is of a nature I am not willing to discuss in a public forum.
Back in the film days Fuji was one of the camera makers I always admired for being the odd one out and producing some wonderful niche cameras (like the joint venture of the X-Pan/TX-1 and TX-2 plus panoramic and rangefinder medium format cameras) with exceptional image quality. I owned the X-pan myself (Hassy version) and the optics and build quality are both stellar.
PS
Has anyone noticed the similarities in layout between the TX-2 (X-Pan) and the X Pro 1? This is one of the reasons my pulse rate went up when the X Pro 1 was announced...
Mate, I say definitely don't get this camera, you carry too much baggage, you'd probably start swearing the moment you see the word fuji on the box
Look TBH I also half expect the camera to have bugs or even die on me at some point, I made that consious decision when I ordered it. However, I dont know what the deal is in europe but in australia it comes with a 2 year warranty, and the service centre is actually pretty damn good by aussie standards. I know, I had to send my x100 in twice. I know now that the standard fuji packaging is perfect for posting, maybe thats why they made the hard box with the padding
So I just put the camera in with a copy of the invoice, a form off the internet with a description of the problem and my details and they send me sms's once they receive and once they post back, which is in 2-4 weeks depending on holidays (holidays in Australia have a "glow" that extends 2 days before and after ) So the process doesnt scare me much. On top of that fuji has shown a remarkable commitment to the X series with firmware updates that actually make things better. So in summary, I've seen worse, much worse.
I probably havent read the reviews you speak of but FWIW my camera (knock on wood) doesnt have slow start ups, lock ups or freezes, and if you could live with the Contax G's AF I think you can live with this one. But I'm having way too much fun with the camera to be objective so take it all with a grain of salt
Spyro P. wrote:
It looks shit, but I'm not sure it's worse than the Nex crop which looks like a mush.
I doubt if fuji or anyone would bother fixing something like this, after all it's only visible in magnifications beyond the camera's spec.
The NEX though does look more natural and, more importantly to me, it can be sharp. The Pentax lens I used on it is clearly not giving sharpness/ detail at the pixel level and having shot other lenses with the NEX-7, there are lenses which do. By the way, that upressed size is one my older 24MP A900 could easily do with a good lens. To get there with the NEX-7 really requires a lot out of the lens.
I don't recall the discussion about the issue with Fuji XPro1 samples.
kosmoskatten wrote:
Back in the film days Fuji was one of the camera makers I always admired for being the odd one out and producing some wonderful niche cameras (like the joint venture of the X-Pan/TX-1 and TX-2 plus panoramic and rangefinder medium format cameras) with exceptional image quality. I owned the X-pan myself (Hassy version) and the optics and build quality are both stellar.
Yes, in the film days, I was pretty happy with Fuji's professional offerings regarding the various MF cameras, the X-Pan (which a friend of mine used) and the great 4x5 lenses. As I mentioned, I was also very happy with the S2Pro. I can't help but think after now owning and using the X100 and X-Pro1 that something negative has occurred at Fuji with the professional group. Perhaps they let a lot of folks go and majorly downsized, I don't know - but something has changed.
Spyro P. wrote:
Look TBH I also half expect the camera to have bugs or even die on me at some point, I made that consious decision when I ordered it. However, I dont know what the deal is in europe but in australia it comes with a 2 year warranty, and the service centre is actually pretty damn good by aussie standards. I know, I had to send my x100 in twice. I know now that the standard fuji packaging is perfect for posting, maybe thats why they made the hard box with the padding
.....
So in summary, I've seen worse, much worse. ...Show more →
The U.S. only gets a year but having also recently dealt with the service center with the X100 I owned, they were very fast and easy to actually contact/ speak with.
The thing that bothers me personally about the X-Pro1 is that it seems like Fuji released it before it was ready. Things like the Geiger counter clicking and twenty year old AF should never have been in a released, "Professional" product. I also have no clue why they would not have included a top shutter speed of 1/8000 sec. since they were free to do so having gone back to the focal plane shutter. While shooting, I have already ran into that limitation with the 35 1.4. Also, some things which they nailed on the X100 such as the feel of the aperture movement (heck, they even went on and on about the feel of the movement in their X100 marketing yet they totally disregard it on the "Pro" model, what's that about?) and even the viewfinder seem to be a step down in quality, not to mention lacking in basic features like a simple diopter. The poor lens build quality - not optical quality which is great on the 35 - also just boggles my mind. Even the accessories are chintzy. I mentioned the lens hood already but the expensive grip, while nicely made overall, lacks something as basic as a spring loaded key on the bottom. The key is there but has no spring to keep it in the open position. It's extremely fiddly to take on and off because of this. Just about every other accessory grip I have used on cameras in the past have a proper spring loaded key. Just another example of a simple - yet obvious omission to a photographer/ user - thing that should have never occured.
Knowing what the camera could and should have been is so disappointing to me particularly because I, like many others, really do prefer the ergonomics and usability of the camera. I much prefer the OVF to an EVF, I love the traditional control layout and the body does feel really nice in the hand. The camera just feels a bit half backed to me and I suppose that angers me a bit.
Yeah I thought about these things too but then I tried to put myself in their shoes. I remember the UK fuji rep saying they've been developing the XP1 for the last 3 years. From a financial perspective this is disastrous and I dont know how much more of this cost they could eat before the project was canned, there must have been great pressure internally to start raking some money in. Remember that in all main areas of work they practically reinvented the wheel: sensor, viewfinder, a range of lenses for a particularly fussy platform, jpeg engine. This camera shares nothing with any existing machine, not even the x100, not even a button. And all that for what? To cater for a niche market within a niche market, the "fussy-RF-guy-who-might-ditch-his-leica-for-a-truely-fantastic-alternative-only". It is my job to put business cases in front of CFOs and I can only imagine how much sake it took to get his signature on that one. To this day I'm still surprised this camera even exists to be honest. And to think of all the x100's they've had to support, service, write FU's for, replace and write off to date? I'd hate to see that bill.
Of course none of us should care about any of that, their problem. As a photographer I'm simply happy that they launched when they did, with warts and all, because I've waited for a digital camera in the HexarAF/ContaxG category for over a decade, and I'm even happier that the market seems to take to it which gives me hope that a) the mount will still be around in 5 years from now and b) there will be an ironed out Xpro2 at some point in time. It will not go they way of the epson RD1.
PS I'm guessing the lenses would have to be extremely light just for the sorry ass AF motor to be able to move them. And because the stupid thing moves the lens hood as well, this would have to be as thin as a coke can too. Not to mention costs...
Spyro P. wrote:
Yeah I thought about these things too but then I tried to put myself in their shoes. I remember the UK fuji rep saying they've been developing the XP1 for the last 3 years. From a financial perspective this is disastrous and I dont know how much more of this cost they could eat before the project was canned, there must have been great pressure internally to start raking some money in. Remember that in all main areas of work they practically reinvented the wheel: sensor, viewfinder, a range of lenses for a particularly fussy platform, jpeg engine. This camera shares nothing with any existing machine, not even the x100, not even a button. And all that for what? To cater for a niche market within a niche market, the "fussy-RF-guy-who-might-ditch-his-leica-for-a-truely-fantastic-alternative-only". It is my job to put business cases in front of CFOs and I can only imagine how much sake it took to get his signature on that one. To this day I'm still surprised this camera even exists to be honest. And to think of all the x100's they've had to support, service, write FU's for, replace and write off to date? I'd hate to see that bill.
Of course none of us should care about any of that, their problem. As a photographer I'm simply happy that they launched when they did, with warts and all, because I've waited for a digital camera in the HexarAF/ContaxG category for over a decade, and I'm even happier that the market seems to take to it which gives me hope that a) the mount will still be around in 5 years from now and b) there will be an ironed out Xpro2 at some point in time. It will not go they way of the epson RD1.
PS I'm guessing the lenses would have to be extremely light just for the sorry ass AF motor to be able to move them. And because the stupid thing moves the lens hood as well, this would have to be as thin as a coke can too. Not to mention costs......Show more →
Good points - and I don't plan on selling any of my X-Pro1 adapter(s) in hopes that the X mount is around for a more refined version of the camera. I also completely get why anyone would put up with the X-Pro1's quirks just for the handling experience. The innovative Fuji Hybrid finder alone is an amazing achievement imo. I can't imagine the development cost of that.
The point you make about the long development cycle is interesting. Could it be that the development of the X100 actually occurred after the X-Pro1 was started and, as a result, the X100 might have actually seen some more mechanical refinement? Something to think about I guess.
Spyro P. wrote:
PS I'm guessing the lenses would have to be extremely light just for the sorry ass AF motor to be able to move them. And because the stupid thing moves the lens hood as well, this would have to be as thin as a coke can too. Not to mention costs...
What the AF need to move the hood as well? This is just a bad design from the start without clear thinking (like the slow focusing Panny 20/1.7)
aleksanderpolo wrote:
What the AF need to move the hood as well? This is just a bad design from the start without clear thinking (like the slow focusing Panny 20/1.7)
Yes, the front of the lens moves in and out. No internal focusing.
jcolwell wrote:
The XF 60mm f/2.4 R Macro front element does move in and out, but the hood does not, as it's attached to the fixed, outer barrel of the lens.
That's different than the 35 then where the hood attaches to the front of the lens which moves. There is no outer barrel. The entire front lens assembly moves.
Thank you guys for the info. I tried my best to convince myself to keep XP1 but after a little play with the camera .. Well... it's packed now and ready to go where it's come from.
The X Pro 1 seems to deliver great to excellent, even class leading, APS-C performance.
I don't doubt the capabilities of the system. But to me the X Pro 1 seems a bit half baked, also taken into consideration the quality of the products Fuji has released before. If you name a camera with "Pro" in the name, it has to deliver not only in output quality, but also in build, feel and handling.
I honestly think there is a generation change in the industry, the younger guns that are more digital savvy are probably often too young to have handled and used the dense, well built cameras of yesteryear whereas the more seasoned guys complain that the current cameras feel like toys with fiddly buttons that are not workable with gloves.
The last couple of years with consumer SLR cameras were honestly not that inspiring either, with very flimsy offerings from all the major players.
If the X Pro 1 was $995 for the house or sold as a kit with one lens for say around $1200 and the other lenses priced like they are now I probably would have bought one myself. For $995 I can live with lesser build quality, Contax G2-like AF and some quirks, but not in a body selling for $1600. I currently have the $$$ but not the stomach for it for a side kick camera.
Spyro P: I worked with Fuji equipment before and it might seem like I hate them, I really don't, I am just disappointed with the X Pro 1. I could have had one for the weekend but my desire for trying one out has been contained and I don' t really feel like there is any rush to try it out until there is at least RAW support.
But as for now; clicking aperture, hunting AF, no really good RAW support, Fuji 18/2 with corner smear and excessive CA, lesser build, MF focus by wire, camera lock up and freeze reports, sub par menu / user interface, not really compatible with legacy wide angle RF glass, etc etc. It is too much to make me really interested in one, despite some of the excellent merits of the system. (I had the Contax G2, so one of those quirky systems is enough I tell you... )
I look forward to the next incarnation of it, it is bound to be better.
My frustration partly stems from my initial surprise when reading the announcement; all three lenses strike a chord with me and it seemed almost too good to be true. A fast wide angle prime, a very fast normal lens and a short macro/portrait telephoto lens. I was ready to go all in.
If the XPro-1 were $995 it wouldn't exist. That's not a realistic price-point.
I've owned a D700, a Leica M7 and M4, a F100, I've just recently come into a Pentax 645N (which, I wil say, is the most fun to shoot camera I've ever had - 35mm, MF, digital or film, etc.)... the XPro-1 is the equal of any in "build, feel and handling." Equating "build quality" with "weighs a lot" is absurd.
Clicking aperture - just like MFT bodies. No RAW support - Adobe always takes time to catch up. It will be here soon. The 18/2 is getting excellent reviews from actual users. Sub-par menus - again, this is just incorrect and makes it obvious you haven't used one.
You're looking for reasons to dislike the XPro-1, which is fine. Don't buy one. I'm not going to buy a Canon 5DIII (though, I see a D800 in my future if they're ever available) but I don't need to manufacture reasons about why not.
It's really easy to just absorb all the negativity when reading an online forum. Before receiving my camera, I was worried that I'd made a terrible mistake. But now that I have received it, I admit that it has its faults, but much of the negativity is overblown. The AF is not in the same class as a DSLR or an E-P3, but it's not even close to unusable. I guess it's subjective, but you should try it and judge for yourself rather than relying solely on a few comments on the web. I guess I just find the complaining ironic considering this is the same forum that popularizes the use of MF Zeiss lenses on DSLRs that aren't designed for a good MF experience. One major issue is that Fuji ships the camera with the parallax corrected AF point feature turned off. It really should be on. I wonder how many people give up on the AF because this feature is off or they don't understand the parallax issue.
The build quality is good except for a few niggles: mainly the battery compartment door. Lloyd Chambers said he almost immediately snapped off the battery door on his D800. Is this a showstopper?
The menu system is really okay. Really. It's not the same menu as the X100. It's not the greatest menu ever, but it's perfectly fine.
Anyway, I'm not saying the camera is without faults. I enumerated a long list of them earlier. But I'd encourage anyone interested in it to try to ignore the internet echo chamber, try one yourself, and make your own decision.
I think the menu is actually nice, and reassuring that they listened to feedback on the X100 and revamped it.
The major question for me - is the AF problem an algorithm issue correctable by firmware or is it weakness in the electronics? A partnership with Olympus would be great for their future.
Just an update to the extreme watercolor effect I noticed with the jpegs and raws when they are interpolated up to larger sizes. What appears to be going on is some extreme default sharpening/ clarity/ contrast effects which Fuji applies in camera to the jpegs (even with sharpness set to it's minimum setting) and which is the default sharpness setting in Silkypix for the raws. Playing around with all the sharpening options in Silkypix, including applying no sharpening at all, confirms the heavy default processing is the main culprit. The thing is, this extreme default sharpening is also what makes the 35 1.4 appear to be so good. Without all this extreme processing, the lens is good but nowhere near what one might initially think. For a sensor with no AA filter, the "no sharpness" results out of Silkypix are fairly soft with the 35 1.4. Fuji seems to be relying very heavily on processing tricks but they do seem to do the job in most cases unless you really push the files.
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