p.24 #1 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
You are right Todd. And I am sorry. I do not know, why I got so angry. Maybe it is because I would love to have a 5D III now for my own, because I think I could make more (and easier) money ...
In fact it is me, who should support one or more children with what I can give them.
Thank you for holding the mirror right into my face, Todd. And of course thxs to you too, Pompo.
p.24 #2 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
ggreene wrote:
Adapt to what? Leaving focus up to pure chance in low light conditions? Is Canon's new AF philosophy based on
"Spray and Pray"? I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense as they upped the FPS to 12. Take enough shots and some will bound to be in focus.
I'd be more convinced if you could show me the shots that you missed because of the screen.
p.24 #3 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
For the better part of the last 45 days I have been in northern Montana photographing real working cowboys during their spring ritual of roping and branding cattle. Each shoot typically lasts anywhere from 5 to 6 hours, during which time I take 1600 to 3000 shots. More often than not my camera is set to AI Servo mode, though approximately 10% to 20% of the time I will use One Shot mode. In other circumstances I may use One Shot mode more often than not.
When I first view my photos in DPP, I grade them. Photos that are completely out-of-focus and/or unsalvageable in any way receive one star. Those that barely rise above that criteria receive two stars, and so on...all of the way to five stars, which is a photograph I know will be published.
On a good day, for every 1000 images (when shooting lots of action) I might have 20 to 30 5-star images and about 50 to 100 four-star images. Generally I will have just as many one-star images as I do five-star images and almost as many boring two-star images as I do four-star images.
Those photos that receive one star are always deleted immediately, and sometimes the two stars are also deleted (depending on the type of shoot). It is my impression that I am deleting more shots as a result of this AF illumination issue, especially in AI Servo mode, and because composition is always a consideration when I shoot. Those who always center the subject probably don't worry about this issue as much because their AF point/group is always parked in the middle. For me, I'm ALWAYS moving my AF point/group around from one end of the VF to the other.
I wish I could show you what I'm talking about. I do have a shoot coming up for a client in Yellowstone National Park in a few weeks and I will be sure to save some of those for you since you clearly have an all-knowing, omnipotent, Chuck Westfall-like power to diagnose how I am incorrectly using my camera with this new and (cough) improved AF point/group illumination feature from Canon (a company that clearly can do no wrong).
But here's the kicker, what I can't show you are the "missed shots" that never made it onto my camera at all. Why? Because in the process of fumbling with my camera, trying to locate the AF point in my VF, countless other shots are missed because of the time necessary to do all that. I think a person typically raises a camera into shooting position when they see something that instinctively clicks in their head that says, "That's a good shot." Because of that, it is my experience that when shooting fast moving scenes with lots of action, the first or second shot in that sequence is more often than not the better image, and those shots taken thereafter are not as good because the thing that caught my attention is now gone. And when I can't find my AF point and I don't know instantly where it is, I know I am missing shots.
The tone of your post above, Geniousc, would seem to indicate that you don't believe those who say that this matter has impacted our photography. Why would we make this stuff up? What's more, why are you so vehement about defending Canon on this issue? Do you work for Canon? Do you have a friend or family member that works for Canon? Do you own stock in Canon? What is the purpose of defending Canon here? And, finally, if it bothers you so much there are people here criticizing Canon's decision to change this "feature," why do you even participate in this thread at all?
p.24 #4 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Todd,
In the conditions you describe I am surprised you are having trouble seeing the active AF point. I assume most of this work is done in daylight conditions so there should not be an issue of seeing the darker outline against a very dark subject, or is there?
p.24 #5 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
geniousc wrote:
I'd be more convinced if you could show me the shots that you missed because of the screen.
Shooting in a low light gym from the sideline/baseline of a basketball court at f2 or 2.8 you don't have a lot
of leeway for DOF. Your AF point needs to be on the player driving to the hoop usually amongst a lot of
other players. If you are a little bit off you could end up with the opposing player in focus and your target
just out of focus. Same with poorly lit night games.
What about initial acquisition as you are panning to a new target? I shouldn't be guessing where to focus
when I only have a brief amount of time to capture the moment.
It's hard to believe that people are condoning a design in which you can't see the AF point.
p.24 #6 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Greg, you do have the 5D Mark III and using the camera on a regular basis then? I was under the impression that you want to get or at least are considering the 1DX.
p.24 #7 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
That's right, I'm only interested in the 1DX which uses the same AF/VF. Fully admit to not using either. I'm just trying to imagine looking through my 1D4 and seeing no AF point to go by. This is not something that I want to be guessing at. Unfortunately, if you want to stay at the 1 series level you are forced into this as Canon is offering no other choices.
p.24 #8 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
geniousc wrote:
I'd be more convinced if you could show me the shots that you missed because of the screen.
ggreene wrote:
Shooting in a low light gym from the sideline/baseline of a basketball court at f2 or 2.8 you don't have a lot
of leeway for DOF. Your AF point needs to be on the player driving to the hoop usually amongst a lot of
other players. If you are a little bit off you could end up with the opposing player in focus and your target
just out of focus. Same with poorly lit night games.
What about initial acquisition as you are panning to a new target? I shouldn't be guessing where to focus
when I only have a brief amount of time to capture the moment.
It's hard to believe that people are condoning a design in which you can't see the AF point....Show more →
ggreene wrote:
That's right, I'm only interested in the 1DX which uses the same AF/VF. Fully admit to not using either. I'm just trying to imagine looking through my 1D4 and seeing no AF point to go by. This is not something that I want to be guessing at. Unfortunately, if you want to stay at the 1 series level you are forced into this as Canon is offering no other choices.
You are rendering an opinion on something that you haven't used then or not even handled before? Of course, you can but no offense, how can people put value on that though? I would suggest for you to go to a store where you can handle the 5D Mark III and judge that yourself. To a certain degree, it is actually kind of difficult to do so as the viewfinder display and illumination of that camera can be customized to your need since I can imagine that the one in a store has the default setting.
p.24 #9 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
jerrykur wrote:
In the conditions you describe I am surprised you are having trouble seeing the active AF point. I assume most of this work is done in daylight conditions so there should not be an issue of seeing the darker outline against a very dark subject, or is there?
Bright sunlight doesn't make as much of a difference as one would think IMHO. In these particular shoots my AF point is often placed on a dark horse, black cow, or other somewhat dark subject (regardless of how well lit the scene is), so it still gets lost easily. More than that, finding the AF point/group is not nearly as intuitive as before. For me, and maybe because my eyesight is failing me as someone else once suggested on here, the red flash of the AF point was much, much easier to see than the black outline. I pick it up much easier on my 5D Mark I, which I still use extensively, than I do on the 5D Mark III.
p.24 #10 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
ggreene wrote:
That's right, I'm only interested in the 1DX which uses the same AF/VF. Fully admit to not using either. I'm just trying to imagine looking through my 1D4 and seeing no AF point to go by. This is not something that I want to be guessing at. Unfortunately, if you want to stay at the 1 series level you are forced into this as Canon is offering no other choices.
To be fair, the statement, "no AF point to go by" is not accurate. The selected AF point/group is distinguished by a thicker black border around the AF point, or a box within a box if you want to use Single-point Spot AF. But it is still much harder to find the selected AF point on the Mark III than on any of the other professional and prosumer Canon cameras I use now or have used in the past. To make it easier to see the AF point(s) I have been forced to use "AF point expansion," which has four AF points highlighted with a thicker border (in the form of a cross or plus-sign) around a central AF point, but it doesn't make a huge difference. And when I find myself having to or wanting to use single-point AF, the AF point is frequently lost more than half of the time and my eye is searching for it in the VF frequently.
p.24 #11 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
ggreene wrote:
Shooting in a low light gym from the sideline/baseline of a basketball court at f2 or 2.8 you don't have a lot
of leeway for DOF. Your AF point needs to be on the player driving to the hoop usually amongst a lot of
other players. If you are a little bit off you could end up with the opposing player in focus and your target
just out of focus. Same with poorly lit night games.
What about initial acquisition as you are panning to a new target? I shouldn't be guessing where to focus
when I only have a brief amount of time to capture the moment.
It's hard to believe that people are condoning a design in which you can't see the AF point....Show more →
p.24 #12 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
AGeoJO wrote:
You are rendering an opinion on something that you haven't used then or not even handled before? Of course, you can but no offense, how can people put value on that though? I would suggest for you to go to a store where you can handle the 5D Mark III and judge that yourself. To a certain degree, it is actually kind of difficult to do so as the viewfinder display and illumination of that camera can be customized to your need since I can imagine that the one in a store has the default setting.
That's mostly true, but it isn't much different than someone (not you) rendering an opinion on a matter in which they in all likelihood shoot different subjects and do so in different ways than those who are having a problem with this new VF.
Also, when reports of this issue first surfaced, about three weeks before my 5D Mark III arrived, I too was genuinely concerned, but tried to keep an open mind. It wasn't until I began using AI Servo and shooting in action-heavy situations in back-to-back shoots, after the camera had been thoroughly vetted, that I formally rendered an opinion on this matter. I honestly tried to make it work, but I've now had the camera for a couple of months and trying to "just get used to it" hasn't helped. So it isn't completely unfair for him to form an opinion on this matter given the fact there are discussion threads all over the Internet on this topic and the fact it has been raised by some blogs (including Canon Rumors). And if he is like me, his fears may very well be confirmed when he picks one up and tries it for the first time.
p.24 #13 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
jj_glos wrote:
Never ever had a problem doing this with the 7D.
Let's be clear...just because you never had a problem "doing this" with the 7D doesn't mean the VF "works just as well" and accomplishes the same things as the VF on the 1D, 1Ds, and previous 5D series cameras. Again, you might shoot differently than other people (i.e. different AF points selected, different AF mode, different panning techniques, different composition techniques, etc.).
For example, if you always (or more often than not) keep your subject matter centered and don't constantly move your AF point/group around from one side of the VF to the other, I can honestly see why this isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if you shoot like me, and you are constantly shooting a variety of different subjects, in a variety of different settings, and in a variety of different compositions, using a variety of different AF points to compose and frame your subject, this becomes much, much more of an issue AND this makes shooting with the 5D III in this one regard (and ONLY in this one regard) a much more difficult proposition for those of us who have used the previous method of illuminating AF points/groups.
p.24 #14 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
jerrykur wrote:
In the conditions you describe I am surprised you are having trouble seeing the active AF point. I assume most of this work is done in daylight conditions so there should not be an issue of seeing the darker outline against a very dark subject, or is there?
Todd Klassy wrote:
Bright sunlight doesn't make as much of a difference as one would think IMHO. In these particular shoots my AF point is often placed on a dark horse, so it gets lost easily. More than that, finding the AF point/group is not nearly as intuitive as before. For me, and maybe because my eyesight is failing me, the red flash of the AF point is much, much easier to see than the black outline. I pick it up much easier on my 5D Mark I, which I still use extensively, than I do on the 5D Mark III.
Todd, you and pompo, the OP, are the most vocal voices here on this thread but at least we know that both of you are using that camera. I am not defending Canon and I know the viewfinder illumination or display can be improved upon. So, we are on the same page there. But I am a little puzzled on the point that you made above. You are placing the active AF point on a dark horse during the day and you still cannot see it? I am not the youngest either but I have yet to encounter any outdoor situation while the lighting is decent where I cannot see the AF point regardless how dark the target is. Period. In addition, you may want to point/place the AF point on a more contrasty area anyway rather than straight on the dark part and less contrasty part of the target. I don't have to tell you since you know that already anyway, right?
Indoors or when the lighting conditions are really low, it is a little tougher and trickier, I admit. We definitely can benefit from some kind of AF point illumination (at less intensity, like 50% only to separate that from AF confirmation illumination of 100%) while the AF point is still active and the AF point is activated right away when you use the joystick to move it. The way it is right not, you have to push the AF-On button or the shutter button to be able to move the active AF point around although it is lit (if you select so in the custom setting) with each movement..
p.24 #15 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
The outline of the AF point(s) is black. When placed on a darker subject it gets lost (for me) much easier than if it is against a lighter background or subject. When using my 5D and 1D Mark IV I am able to tap the Multi-controller/joystick on the back of the camera and the AF point I selected flashes in red. And in AI Servo mode spotting the AF point was much easier and helpful. What I'm saying is that the black outline is much harder to see than a red AF point, and especially against darker subjects. The darker the subject, the harder it is for me to find my AF point/group.
And you also said you have yet to encounter an outdoor situation while the lighting is decent where I cannot see the AF point regardless how dark the target is. In response, all I can is, I believe you. I too can "find" the AF point, but it takes more effort, more time. I am scanning the VF more to find it, especially the darker the subject is, and the less light there is available in a scene. The more light the better it is, sure, but the darkness of the subject (for me) makes a big difference too.
As for placing the AF point on something with more contrast really is not the issue for me. I don't have a problem with the AF point locking on to the subject. I have a problem seeing it and knowing where it is so I can frame the subject the way I want and/or quickly switch to a different AF point. If you are suggesting I should first position my camera on something that has more contrast (or perhaps a lighter background) just for the sake of easily finding my AF point/group, well then I would say that in doing so I would still be spending more precious time positioning my camera and/or AF point than I ever have to do with my 5D Mark I or 1D Mark IV. I haven't consciously tried doing that yet, but will give it a whirl.
And yes, having to push the AF-On button or the shutter button in order to move the active AF point around with each movement is tedious. And although it may be lit in those circumstances (thus requiring more time to do so), it still gets lost in that veil of red that flashes across the entire VF screen IMHO.
p.24 #16 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Todd, I used to hate the fact that the black square never showed up on my 1Ds and 1DsIII so when trying to place focus I knew where to aim without having to first tap the shutter release so it would show in red. I used to take the focus screen out and with a pencil draw a small square where the centre point and rightmost point (the two I use the most) would be and it made a world of difference. If you can remove the focus screen in the 5DIII at all, perhaps draw the square in red pencil or mark an X on the spot so it would show up more clearly? Would help you with the aiming.
p.24 #17 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Beni wrote:
Todd, I used to hate the fact that the black square never showed up on my 1Ds and 1DsIII so when trying to place focus I knew where to aim without having to first tap the shutter release so it would show in red. I used to take the focus screen out and with a pencil draw a small square where the centre point and rightmost point (the two I use the most) would be and it made a world of difference. If you can remove the focus screen in the 5DIII at all, perhaps draw the square in red pencil or mark an X on the spot so it would show up more clearly? Would help you with the aiming....Show more →
The MK3 does not have user replacable focusing screens.
p.24 #18 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
^ Thanks for the suggestion, but as jerrykur said, there is no replaceable focus screen on the 5D Mark III. That said, your solution with your cameras is clever nonetheless.
Hopefully Canon will find some way to remedy this problem with the 5D Mark III, though I'm not holding my breath.
p.24 #19 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Todd Klassy wrote:
^ Thanks for the suggestion, but as jerrykur said, there is no replaceable focus screen on the 5D Mark III. That said, your solution with your cameras is clever nonetheless.
Hopefully Canon will find some way to remedy this problem with the 5D Mark III, though I'm not holding my breath.
well you can leave the black square on all the time, right? Not sure if that wouldnt drive
me crazy
p.24 #20 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
^ You can set the camera to display an AF point(s) constantly, or have it/them displayed only when selecting AF point(s) AND when focus is achieved. And no, it doesn't drive me crazy because the AF point(s) in this configuration is/are still difficult to see.
