p.13 #1 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
clarence3, pompo, arbitrage, and others, collectively you've well described the shortcomings of the 5D3 AF point illumination system. I am also pessimistic in that I doubt the mechanical set up of the LCD overlay will allow a "fix" as elegant as the system in the 1D4, but:
1. I'm still blown away by how well the AF works
2. I do appreciate the availability of the grid and level, even though I use them infrequently
3. I'm hopeful that a (second) FW update may include options that improve the situation, even if it remains imperfect
These are not excuses for the design, but reasons that I'm more than willing to stick with the 5D3.
p.13 #2 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
.....I said the 5D2 system makes no sense because on a 5D2 you have permanently etched black squares. You can't turn them off....EVER!. This is why you can't have the 5D2 system when you have 61 points or you would severely obscure your view through the viewfinder. I then said that the 1D4 system is ideal because it can only show what it wants but uses direct LEDs instead of side lit LEDs. It doesn't have all the points showing all the time, can turn on and off LEDs at will and therefore has the highest level of customization. The biggest issue with the 7D/5D3/1DX is that it has to use side lit LEDs because a translucent LCD can't have permanent LEDs on it. The benefits are that it can show more info on the screen like grid lines, levels etc...
I wish you would not take my statements out of context. Please have the respect to at least read what I wrote before arguing with me. I said very distinctly that the 5D2 system doesn't make sense. The 5D3 system makes all the sense in the world and the 1D4 would probably be even better. Again, since I don't have a 1D4, I'm still not 100% sure how it works but from what I've read, it seems to be able to turn on the black or the red directly and not have all 45 black squares always showing but can still show any of them and light them directly like the 5D2 does. ...Show more →
The Nikon D4 viewfinder is an example of how I was hoping the 1Dx would work. The Nikon has 'only' 51 AF points to illuminate but handles this with LEDs and also seems to have the features of the translucent LCD featured on the 7D/5DIII/1Dx.
In other words, the Nikon illuminates each point individually, with no side lighting visible. It also has on command gridlines/horizon level/AF points. The viewfinder also masks areas that will not be included when in 5:4, 1.5x, or 1.2x crop mode. The only permanently visible feature in the finder is the black line that outlines the total area covered by the AF.
This page shows some decent examples of what the D4 AF illumination looks like in use, as well as the mask and gridline features:
I'm still wondering which features are made available by the 7D/5DIII/1Dx/D700/D800/etc viewfinders that are not available in the Nikons and the older Canons.
p.13 #3 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
@ photon
I have to agree with you, the AF is amazing, I hope as well the new firmware will somewhat improve the VF but my hopes aren't that high. Any improvements, even small will be welcomed. I'm still torn if I should fork out $7000 for the 1DX if the VF is going to be exactly the same...
p.13 #4 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
pompo wrote:
yeah I did stop down to f 4 and pushing the dof preview button the af points are much darker=black even from 1.2 to 2.8; I can see a big difference
Cool, totally explains it and makes logical sense also. Now Canon needs to somehow improve the black visibility with wide aperture lenses. I mean the 5D3 is a great do it all camera but it is arguably the best "wedding" camera also right now and therefore I'm sure most wedding people use a lot of wide aperture primes (maybe I'm wrong and you guys are all using f/2.8 zooms??)
As I said earlier my lens line up is all f/4 zooms and a 100L so that is why I've never had issues with seeing the black squares in average to good light. I'm looking at buying my first L prime (debating between 35 and 50) so I will soon get to experience what you have been seeing pompo. Sorry for doubting your observations in the past, but neither of us were able to figure it out. I went and found that DPReview thread and kudos to that guy for figuring it out finally. Now we can continue to pester Canon into a solution. I think in the long run we will be benefited by the 1DX having this same system as more of the pros can make things happen at Canon a lot faster.
p.13 #5 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
Hi Todd, you seem to want to argue about everything so lets go.......I said the 5D2 system makes no sense because on a 5D2 you have permanently etched black squares. You can't turn them off....EVER!. This is why you can't have the 5D2 system when you have 61 points or you would severely obscure your view through the viewfinder. I then said that the 1D4 system is ideal because it can only show what it wants but uses direct LEDs instead of side lit LEDs. It doesn't have all the points showing all the time, can turn on and off LEDs at will and therefore has the highest level of customization. The biggest issue with the 7D/5D3/1DX is that it has to use side lit LEDs because a translucent LCD can't have permanent LEDs on it. The benefits are that it can show more info on the screen like grid lines, levels etc......Show more →
Huh? Do you think 1D4 and older do have the LEDs right on the sceen? They don't. Well, I can't speak for 1D cameras, but I saw LED module from EOS3, which is similar. It was an array of 45 LEDs with lens-like cover on top. It also had some electronics under gray plastic cover and flat copper cables were hanging from it. That thing couldn't be positioned anywhere on the screen, it would be positioned somewhere in the pentaprism hump.
p.13 #6 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
MintMar wrote:
Huh? Do you think 1D4 and older do have the LEDs right on the sceen? They don't. Well, I can't speak for 1D cameras, but I saw LED module from EOS3, which is similar. It was an array of 45 LEDs with lens-like cover on top. It also had some electronics under gray plastic cover and flat copper cables were hanging from it. That thing couldn't be positioned anywhere on the screen, it would be positioned somewhere in the pentaprism hump.
All I know is that others have said that with the 1D4 you can basically have the squares showing or not showing but still have the red light come from a direct LED. How this works, I have no idea and haven't tried the 1D4 myself except for like 10mins in a store once. The 5D2 that I own, has the AF squares permanently etched onto the screen and I was told the 1D4 didn't have them permanently showing. My only point was that the 5D2 system would be less than ideal on a camera with 61 points as you would always have this large grid of squares you would have to look through. Again the 5D3 issue is that to have the translucent LCD that can display levels etc, they had to move to two side LEDs that are part of the problems with the red flash and not lighting up enough in good light situations. So I think the 1D4 system would be the most ideal from what I've read but if I had to choose just between a 5D2 system and a 7D/5D3/1DX system, I would choose the 5D3 one to support the 61 points.
p.13 #7 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
All I know is that others have said that with the 1D4 you can basically have the squares showing or not showing but still have the red light come from a direct LED. How this works, I have no idea and haven't tried the 1D4 myself except for like 10mins in a store once. The 5D2 that I own, has the AF squares permanently etched onto the screen and I was told the 1D4 didn't have them permanently showing. My only point was that the 5D2 system would be less than ideal on a camera with 61 points as you would always have this large grid of squares you would have to look through. Again the 5D3 issue is that to have the translucent LCD that can display levels etc, they had to move to two side LEDs that are part of the problems with the red flash and not lighting up enough in good light situations. So I think the 1D4 system would be the most ideal from what I've read but if I had to choose just between a 5D2 system and a 7D/5D3/1DX system, I would choose the 5D3 one to support the 61 points....Show more →
Pre 1Dx AF points work as follows: If you pick one (EOS-3 up to 1D2n allows picking two), that point is always glowing in red. So you see it at any time. If the focus is locked, the AF point's glow is more intensive. I can hardly recall any situation I couldn't see my chosen point.
If you select all points, for the time of selection this is indicated by the glowing ouf the outermost points around the oval (hence the "ring of fire" label). When you shoot, the ring of fire is not visible, and any other point, but when focus is locked, all the points reporting lock glow in red again.
I think this is an ideal system, you see everything all the time and there is no red glow visible through the lens front element.
But where exactly is this module positioned, I'm not sure. I only saw the defective module my friend had replaced by the service.
p.13 #8 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Yeah that is what I'd read about and I also think that type of system seems to be ideal but then you can't have the fancy levels and grid lines (well I guess there are focusing screens with grid lines available). I'd give up my levels to have something like what you described for the 1 series but on the other hand I do like how the 5D3/7D/1DX can show small squares for non-active points and can flash the points that aren't cross type and some other things. Probably this could be designed into a 1D type system too but I guess Canon has decided on their path after beta testing with the 7D for a few years.
p.13 #9 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
Yeah that is what I'd read about and I also think that type of system seems to be ideal but then you can't have the fancy levels and grid lines (well I guess there are focusing screens with grid lines available). I'd give up my levels to have something like what you described for the 1 series but on the other hand I do like how the 5D3/7D/1DX can show small squares for non-active points and can flash the points that aren't cross type and some other things. Probably this could be designed into a 1D type system too but I guess Canon has decided on their path after beta testing with the 7D for a few years....Show more →
Personally, I think they just went the cheap route. Like when they fixed the light leak with a piece of black tape (although I do think that this was perhaps the best solution for a quick fix). Or when they attached the piece around the 50/1.2L's front element by double-sided adhesive tape. Or when f/8 AF option was removed, because it reportedly needed much tighter tolerances on mirrorbox assembly which had to be carried out manually.
So here they put just one big LED intended to lighten up everything. I'd presume. Everything is done on-display and then just one signal is needed to lighten up any image on the focus screen. It's too bad it meant a downgrade for the users (but hey, Canonites can live with that, 5D2 AF, anyone?). I'm just surprised that this is implemented on 1Dx also. Perhaps Masaya Maeda got "no complaints" again from the field testers
p.13 #10 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
kinda been holding my tongue & trying to stay out of the discussion, because unlike many of the users experiencing probs with the 5D3 viewfinder design, I didn't end up buying a 5D3..
but i'm really, really disappointed in such a crippling (to me) oversight in an otherwise excellent camera.. x1000 for how i feel about the 1Dx. i've been following this thread with interest, and it doesn't seem like something that can be outright "fixed" given it's design limitations..
typically i always want the latest & greatest image quality with money not being a huge consideration, esp in terms of bodies that would pay for themselves in a month or two.. but.. there's a but this time around.. :/ will prob end up renting a 1Dx at some point to compare the gains vs trade-offs of the viewfinder, but deciding to buy a $8000 camera (after taxes) just shouldn't have many/any "but" moments..
grain of salt: when i shoot a wedding day or event, i love being able to maneuver blindly during key times.. can change all the important settings without my eye ever leaving the eyecup on the 1ds3/1d4. now i don't doubt being able to find a workaround if i ever had to use a 5d3/1dx, but.. that "but" comes up again..
p.13 #11 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
kaycephoto wrote:
i don't doubt being able to find a workaround if i ever had to use a 5d3/1dx, but..
Right now, I think the workaround is to click the AF Select button, even when you don't want to change the selected focus point. This will highlight all focus points, including which one is currently selected.
p.13 #12 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
After "working around" the 5DII's AF system for the past 4 years, this "work around" is so minor in comparison I don't even mind it. In fact I'm so happy with the camera I bought a second one.
p.13 #13 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
deepbluejh wrote:
After "working around" the 5DII's AF system for the past 4 years, this "work around" is so minor in comparison I don't even mind it. In fact I'm so happy with the camera I bought a second one.
you must not use 1.2 and 1.4 primes, when using these fast lenses these freaking af point whether active or inactive (dark or red) becomes so much brighter that is disgusting
p.13 #14 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Oh BTW, I just looked into my Rebel XTi's (my carry-around camera) lens front element when all the 9 AF points were glowing red and while I could see them, they were only tiny pale red spots noticeable from 1-3cm distacne to the front element, so perhaps macro bugs might notice ;-)
p.13 #15 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
MintMar wrote:
Personally, I think they just went the cheap route. Like when they fixed the light leak with a piece of black tape (although I do think that this was perhaps the best solution for a quick fix).
p.13 #16 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
clarence3 wrote:
Right now, I think the workaround is to click the AF Select button, even when you don't want to change the selected focus point. This will highlight all focus points, including which one is currently selected.
& that would light the front of the lens up in bright red each time as well right? that's my understanding after to speaking with one of my buddies about his..
pretty minor thing, but still stupid.. considering there was nothing wrong with the 1Ds3 viewfinder
p.13 #18 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Nevertheless, I examined my XTi a bit more, and it looks like there is also only one red light to make the AF points glow. But it is partially masked out (some LCD?) when only one point is selected, and unmasked when all points are glowing. Then the light can be seen on the focus screen when one looks into the front element of the lens, or just at the focus screen without the lens attached, and in the dark. However, that light is much weaker than the one which is in the 7D viewfinder.
p.13 #19 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
that sounds strange "partially masked"? I gotta check that out...I wonder now if the firmware update they are talking about could make it like this then?
p.13 #20 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
pompo wrote:
you must not use 1.2 and 1.4 primes, when using these fast lenses these freaking af point whether active or inactive (dark or red) becomes so much brighter that is disgusting
That's about all I use.
24/1.4
50/1.5
85/1.4
Make up probably 70% of the shots I take. Not sure what you're up in arms about, but I've found nothing "disgusting" so far. It would be nice to have the points illuminate once you initiate focusing, but it hasn't been a deal breaker for me.
