p.12 #1 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
stanj wrote:
The fact that the D4 and 1DX has the same problem is not very comforting...
I recently purchased a D4 and it does not have this same problem. It appears to use individual LEDs for each AF point, there is no red light leak across the frame, and there is definitely no visible red light through the other end of the lens. My understanding is that the D800 does exhibit this problem, though I've not used one to confirm.
That being said, are you 100% certain the 1Dx has the same system as the 5DIII?
p.12 #3 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
I'm 99% certain the 1DX is the same from this technical article......
"Viewfinder
The viewfinder features another new development for the EOS-1 series. While the viewfinder optics are almost identical to those in the EOS-1Ds Mark III, with the same 100% coverage, 0.76x magnification (higher than the 0.71x on the EOS 5D Mark II) and eye-point, the new development is the inclusion of a translucent liquid crystal display (LCD) like that found in the EOS 7D.
The translucent LCD allows the camera to display more essential information within the viewfinder, including the 61 AF points, Zone, Spot or Expansion AF points and a grid when required. With the camera turned off the display will appear milky due to light scattering, but once the camera is powered on the display becomes clear. To avoid the screen looking cluttered, it is possible to choose the information the LCD displays, or even to have it show none at all.
Compared to the viewfinder found the EOS 7D, the one found in the EOS-1D X has been designed for usage in harsher environments and it will function substantially better in temperatures below 0°C. Also, the power consumption of the LCD screen is minimal so there is no significant effect on battery life.
Because the translucent LCD is unable to produce light the viewfinder features red LEDs to light the entire LCD in low light conditions. In the default setting, the red LEDs will light automatically in low light, however this can be set to ‘always on' or ‘always off' by using the Custom Functions."
p.12 #5 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
stanj wrote:
The 1DX that I used was the same as the 5D3 in this regard.
Well, this sucks.
LD_50 wrote:
I recently purchased a D4 and it does not have this same problem. It appears to use individual LEDs for each AF point, there is no red light leak across the frame, and there is definitely no visible red light through the other end of the lens. My understanding is that the D800 does exhibit this problem, though I've not used one to confirm.
Actually, one of the best things about the D3s vs. the D700 (for me) was the way the flagship Nikon handled viewfinder illumination without the whole "screen flashing" thing. Glad to hear the D4 is the same.
p.12 #7 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
stanj wrote:
The 1DX that I used was the same as the 5D3 in this regard.
This is beyond pathetic. Canon supposedly talked with pros and what they wanted before designing the 1DX. It is
their ultimate low light body. Wouldn't you want an AF point that is recognizable under those conditions? How does
this get by the design vetting process at Canon? Where were the pros who were testing this? Were they all out on
the sunny plains of Africa shooting lions?
p.12 #8 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Yes they actually probably were out in fairly good light. This camera was mainly tested by photojournalists (Royal Wedding?) and by sports shooters. Granted there are a lot of indoor sports also but nothing that would be low light enough to not see the black points or red flash. Then again Canon also had 3 years of this system in the 7D that never garnered many complaints about the system.
A lot of people don't have any issues with it. Others have major issues. I for one have not had it affect my shooting at all. However, I don't do a lot of low light work. Outdoors and normal use I think it is a great system. If I hadn't read the complaints on here about it I would have never thought twice. I also have used the 7D since 2010.
p.12 #9 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
This is not the 7D2. It's Canon's flagship still photo camera at $7000. Specifically
designed to compete with the Nikon D3s/D4 in low light for both AF and ISO. Don't
you think it would be a good idea to have an AF point that is easily seen under those
conditions?
It doesn't matter what the 1DX is used for, it is Canon's top of the line with supposedly
their best technology. If they did not thoroughly test this body in low light then
shame on them. I would hope that they would have more pride in the products they
declare to be the best that they can produce.
p.12 #10 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
Yes they actually probably were out in fairly good light. This camera was mainly tested by photojournalists (Royal Wedding?) and by sports shooters. Granted there are a lot of indoor sports also but nothing that would be low light enough to not see the black points or red flash. Then again Canon also had 3 years of this system in the 7D that never garnered many complaints about the system.
A lot of people don't have any issues with it. Others have major issues. I for one have not had it affect my shooting at all. However, I don't do a lot of low light work. Outdoors and normal use I think it is a great system. If I hadn't read the complaints on here about it I would have never thought twice. I also have used the 7D since 2010....Show more →
And this is exactly what confuses me about it. I've had the 7D since the month it hit the shelves, and not have had an issue. 30% of what I use it for is poorly lit, but not completely dark. I set the AF point myself, so I know relative to the frame borders roughly where it is before it lights up. For things like the intros, dances, etc I have never had a problem but maybe if it is so dark you can't see the frame edges it is an issue?
p.12 #11 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
A lot of people don't have any issues with it. Others have major issues. I for one have not had it affect my shooting at all. However, I don't do a lot of low light work. Outdoors and normal use I think it is a great system. If I hadn't read the complaints on here about it I would have never thought twice. I also have used the 7D since 2010.
I have less of an issue when using the 7D because there are fewer focus points. But I greatly prefer the way that the red light works on the 1D3... every time I press the back AF-ON button with my thumb, the selected focus point blinks in red (even in AI SERVO). Easy confirmation, especially as I switch between horizontal and vertical orientation. I don't have the 1D4, but the 1D3 (and heck even the Rebel T1i) does this in AI Servo.
And I can quickly adjust the selected focus point on the fly by moving my thumb to the focus select button. This is all by reflex and habit... all part of what several shooters call "working the back button".
Critical in low light shooting, but even in daylight, I'm usually looking way past the black dots in the viewfinder with my right eye, and my left eye is open for field awareness... scoping out the receiver before I even point the lens in his direction. So the red blink is essential for keeping the selected focus point on the subject's eyes, and for knowing when to adjust the selected focus point to support the composition of the frame.
This red blink of the selected focus point is what I expected the "Selected pre-AF" option (menu AF5.2) to do on the 5D3 when "VF display illumination = ON" (menu AF5.3) - if the next firmware update provides that, I'll be thrilled.
p.12 #12 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Well said. Explains my sentiments RE: this issue well, Clarence.
And some might think there are "a lot of people" who don't have any issues with it, but it would seem as though there are many more who do. And most of those who seem to be defending Canon for no logical reason at all (since it would hurt them to have this issue remedied), it would seem many if not most do a majority of their shooting using a 7D, which means they probably have very little experience using a the other AF point illumination method.
p.12 #13 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
One of the key points here is that the AF lighting system in the 5DIII and 1Dx is the newer system. That would mean that when the decision was made to change from the older system the tradeoffs would have been thoroughly discussed.
The idea that pros would need to test the new system or a certain number of complaints would be needed relative to the 7D contradicts the way I would expect the design and engineering processes to work on such an important product (and I have a mechanical engineering background). By the time pros are using this camera, the discussion would have already taken place as to the tradeoffs of changing to this system.
I assume it was determined that there were positive effects from this change, though I don't know what those would be. I would suggest cost, but the cost of the 1Dx would lead me to believe that this would not be as big a concern on this model.
Does anyone who has used a 7D actually prefer this system over the older style of AF lighting? Having switched from a Nikon D700 to D4, I don't see the benefits of the D700 system (similar to the 5DIII and 1Dx).
**Edit** One more point to consider.. will the 1Dc use this same AF lighting system? It seems to me that the example given where it was pointed out on a film set that the red light was visible through the end of the lens on a 5DIII would be very relevant for the 1Dc's intended market.
By the way, I am posting here not to put down the 1Dx, but because I'm interested in the camera once reviews are available (despite owning a D4).
p.12 #14 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Current score from this thread alone:
14 posters with either minor or major problems with the system.
11 posters with no issues.
I'd say my comment above would still be fairly valid.
Personally I shoot 7D, 5D2 and 5D3 and as I've said before, the 5D2 system would be horrible with 61 points. However, a 1D4 series system would be the best from what I've read. The 1DX having this system is sure to ruffle some feathers. Odd that none of the pre-production pros have complained or maybe they have and that is part of the reason Chuck Westfall mentioned that the issue was being addressed.
Also as I mentioned in the other thread, I did send emails to Canon USA and Canada for you guys. Please send me some paypal donations for my efforts
p.12 #15 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Angst against this system seems more lopsided in other forums. But even if the anecdotal statistics above are consistent with attitudes on the street (which, I know, there are far more complainers on forums than there are people who don't have problems), 56% of respondents who don't like a system is extremely high in my opinion. Even if 20% of the customers are upset about this feature that's too many.
And BTW, your contention that this AF/viewfinder illumination method doesn't make good sense on a camera with 61 AF points doesn't make sense. The Canon 5D III allows the photographer to employ far fewer than 61 AF points. Last night, in fact, I was photographing a baseball game and I was only using 15.
p.12 #16 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
according to someone at dpreview depending on which lens you use ( how bright it is can make the black af points appear lighter or darker...That could explain why some people seem to see them deep black and I see them lighter ( I mostly use primes1.2 and 1.4)
Light gray at 1.2, quite dark at 2.2, and totally solid black by 3.5 (on 50L).
I will try to stop down and see if that's the case...
p.12 #17 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Todd Klassy wrote:
And BTW, your contention that this AF/viewfinder illumination method doesn't make good sense on a camera with 61 AF points doesn't make sense. The Canon 5D III allows the photographer to employ far fewer than 61 AF points. Last night, in fact, I was photographing a baseball game and I was only using 15.
Hi Todd, you seem to want to argue about everything so lets go.......I said the 5D2 system makes no sense because on a 5D2 you have permanently etched black squares. You can't turn them off....EVER!. This is why you can't have the 5D2 system when you have 61 points or you would severely obscure your view through the viewfinder. I then said that the 1D4 system is ideal because it can only show what it wants but uses direct LEDs instead of side lit LEDs. It doesn't have all the points showing all the time, can turn on and off LEDs at will and therefore has the highest level of customization. The biggest issue with the 7D/5D3/1DX is that it has to use side lit LEDs because a translucent LCD can't have permanent LEDs on it. The benefits are that it can show more info on the screen like grid lines, levels etc...
I wish you would not take my statements out of context. Please have the respect to at least read what I wrote before arguing with me. I said very distinctly that the 5D2 system doesn't make sense. The 5D3 system makes all the sense in the world and the 1D4 would probably be even better. Again, since I don't have a 1D4, I'm still not 100% sure how it works but from what I've read, it seems to be able to turn on the black or the red directly and not have all 45 black squares always showing but can still show any of them and light them directly like the 5D2 does.
p.12 #18 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
pompo wrote:
according to someone at dpreview depending on which lens you use ( how bright it is can make the black af points appear lighter or darker...That could explain why some people seem to see them deep black and I see them lighter ( I mostly use primes1.2 and 1.4)
Light gray at 1.2, quite dark at 2.2, and totally solid black by 3.5 (on 50L).
I will try to stop down and see if that's the case...
This now makes sense to me and I finally understand why you thought the points were a muddled brown colour. Probably with more light coming through the camera the points become more washed out. I mainly shoot my 100-400 at f/5.6 and my widest aperture lens is the 100L at f/2.8. I think you've finally figured out why some of us don't have as much of an issue in good light. Most of the people that have had issues have been using the wider aperture primes.
As you know, I've totally agreed with all your complaints about the system in low light but it has been the good light issues that I and others didn't understand. This sounds like it could be the "missing link". Do you have some native 2.8 lenses or even f/4 lenses that you could compare against the 1.2 and 1.4 primes? That would probably answer the question right there.
As for the low light problems, hopefully Canon will update the firmware soon to give us more customization to how and when the AF points light up.
p.12 #19 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
And remember you will need to push the DOF preview button to see the improvement as otherwise the lens doesn't stop down till you push the shutter release.
Please send me some paypal donations for my efforts