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Archive 2011 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan

  
 
douglasf13
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p.16 #1 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


wfrank wrote:
Oh no, sensors aren't that good. How about a sensor with doubled DR? We're so used with the look of 20th century photographs and therefor think that that look is proper. An outblown sky in a shot from a shadowed narrow street, is that what we saw? Of course not.

But the difference in DR between APS-C (current) and FF (from 2008) may be minute.


Unfortunately, more than sensors are to blame for low DR. Glaring flare from inside the lens and mirror box (or non-mirror box) also reduces DR. Even the best primes with great coatings and few lens elements only allow 12-13 stops of DR anyways, because of this glaring flare destroying shadow detail, so we may not see much more usable DR with newer sensors using our current lens tech.

Either way, I don't take pictures for science books or anything, so I don't mind working within the constraints of our current technology. I'm less interested in photographing what I see and more interested in interpreting what I see. Again, this is why many still use the same film for years, despite newer and better films being released. That being said, I am interested in the technology improving, and I look forward to seeing where it goes.



Nov 19, 2011 at 08:17 PM
freaklikeme
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p.16 #2 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff Kott wrote:
I've got a 5N plus my Nikon and Pentax bodies and a NEX 7 on order. I've got no hesitation to buy a camera based on what's available today, but rather was saying that in general I don't think it makes sense to compare sensors on cameras available today to some hypothetical improvement down the road. This is especially true because with the last batch of sensors (both FF and the current APS) the print output is great.


I read Carsten's point, in context of a thread titled "Giving up 5D II for NEX?," to be that you need to consider the future of the system you're using before making a major change like switching from a full-frame to one of the mirrorless wonders for the sake of minor IQ improvements. Assuming that was his point, he's right. Unless you have a low investment in your current system, or have loads of free time and cash, making that kind of change is an expensive, time consuming process that is equal parts rewarding and frustrating, and not to be taken lightly, given what you'd have to do to reverse the decision. So there should be more than just that motivation, because it's likely your chosen line will surpass the NEX in IQ on the next release. Augmenting your gear to include the NEX is an entirely different matter.



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:01 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.16 #3 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


freaklikeme wrote:
I read Carsten's point, in context of a thread titled "Giving up 5D II for NEX?," to be that you need to consider the future of the system you're using before making a major change like switching from a full-frame to one of the mirrorless wonders for the sake of minor IQ improvements. Assuming that was his point, he's right. Unless you have a low investment in your current system, or have loads of free time and cash, making that kind of change is an expensive, time consuming process that is equal parts rewarding and frustrating, and not to be
...Show more

Well, if that's what he meant, I certainly agree. To me the NEX is a tool for certain situations and I'm not getting rid of all of my Nikon and Pentax gear although I may get rid of some. For example, I have a D90 and CV 40/2 for a compact any where kit, but now that I have the NEX, I don't need that. However, I'm hanging onto my D300 to use with my ZF 100/2 as well as my 70-200 for sports. So, I guess I would have to say that I would not give up all my gear and have the NEX as my sole system and I may find that at times I'll want to use my F mount lenses with a 36 megapixel D800.



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:11 AM
carstenw
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p.16 #4 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


freaklikeme wrote:
I read Carsten's point, in context of a thread titled "Giving up 5D II for NEX?," to be that you need to consider the future of the system you're using before making a major change[...]


Yes, that's my one point. The other is that I find the NEX system quite immature, as a system. The operation is a bit crude, the lenses a bit disappointing. Using good FF lenses with a NEX partly alleviates that, but many of the good FF lenses have really interesting things going on in the corners, and can be somewhat sterile cropped, and anyway, something like a CV15 is no replacement for a 21 Distagon, for example. There are also no really interesting AF lenses at the moment. The Zeiss 24 will hopefully change that, but the NEX system as a whole has IMO just two interesting points, sensor size and peaking, compared to m4/3, which is much more mature, but has a smaller sensor, or even the Nikon 1 system which, although the sensor is even smaller, has a couple of interesting lenses, plus full access to AF-S Nikkors (70-200/2.8 anyone), and a number of very integrating high performance options.

Edited on Nov 20, 2011 at 03:48 AM · View previous versions



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:25 AM
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p.16 #5 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


You can add corner softness and vignetting in post (heck - some people I know are doing this sometimes), but not the other way around (at least with softness). Better to have a sharp image to start with, without these "interesting things". I'm sure you know why the FF T/S lenses are so sharp at neutral setting - because their image circle is sufficiently larger than FF. Is that not too sterile for you? (actually I've heard that some non-T/S lenses employ the same principle to a degree - like the Nikkor 14-24/2.8 renowned for overall sharpness). So I'm happily using FF lenses on my (slightly) cropped camera, knowing that the worst of the barrelled, soft, CA-ridden and darkened corners are safely outside the image (though not always enough).

YMMV.

Re: the NEX system, it's the good wideangle that's the most sorely missing item. Adaptables from the A mount are not that hot either. For true UWA, that leaves us with using Sigma lenses with LA-EA1 or LA-EA2 adapter (the latter still not being compatible to my wife's older NEX-3 until the firmware is out, and that may take some time). But then, there goes the size advantage, and it's an important consideration as my wife needs to carry that UWA with her in a lady's shoulder bag somehow.



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:59 AM
carstenw
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p.16 #6 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Snopchenko wrote:
You can add corner softness and vignetting in post [...] YMMV.


I guess we have different opinions about this one. You can successfully add vignetting, perhaps, but you cannot turn a 35mm Distagon back into a 35mm effective lens, and there is no 24mm lens in the world which looks like that lens. Etc.

Re: the NEX system, it's the good wideangle that's the most sorely missing item.

Yes, and the portrait lens and the fast standard, all AF. And then there is a fast tele for sports.



Nov 20, 2011 at 03:55 AM
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p.16 #7 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
I guess we have different opinions about this one. You can successfully add vignetting, perhaps, but you cannot turn a 35mm Distagon back into a 35mm effective lens, and there is no 24mm lens in the world which looks like that lens. Etc.

Yeah, the 24mm FOV is a pain, but starting with 35mm it's better, just use the 24mm as a 35mm. From then on, it's all covered. But I get your point: a dedicated fast APS-C wide is long overdue, no system except µ4/3 offers anything like this and even there it's only f/2 at 12mm (so a little problematic for darkness where f/1.4 is more or less required).



Yes, and the portrait lens and the fast standard, all AF. And then there is a fast tele for sports.

The new 50/1.8 OSS should be good for portraits, although I'd like a 85mm more (I often end up using my 70-200 around 85-110mm but that's on APS-H). However the Sony roadmap did show a short tele prime, should be something like a 85 (since the 50 is covered). A fast standard (35mm)... that one is tougher.

The lineup I'd probably go for if switching to NEX is: a wideangle (adapted Sigma 8-16mm in a pinch); 24mm f/1.8 ZA; 50mm f/1.8 OSS; a telephoto (if only a dedicated f/4 telephoto similar to Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 IS L would be released!); maybe a short or medium macro.



Nov 20, 2011 at 04:43 AM
slungu
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p.16 #8 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
Yes, and the portrait lens and the fast standard, all AF. And then there is a fast tele for sports.


Now, Carsten, since when do we talk about AF lenses here on the alt forum ?
But now, I think it was not Phillipe's intetion to say that the NEX would be the ideal system for everyone. He was thinking loud about his situation, what he needs in terms of FL and IQ and how he thinks he will manage with the NEX. I for myself have dumped the Canon FF ( even if also for other than photographical reasons at one point in time ), but making a short inventory I think I could do with the ZM18/4 and one of the CV75 - that would give me decent stuff in the FL that I used 99% on FF, with a little loss at thze wide end since I had the 28/2 Distagon. If the NEX ( or every other body for that matter ) would also have IBIS, I think I would stop there ( joking, trying out lenses is also fun, but that would be my main kit ). The reason is wery simple : i like the 28mm equivalent for shooting bildings in and out ( in is where the IBIS would be great ), and for thight portraits a 75 would be enough - I like to see the person portraited, so the 1.2 lenses of the 85mm FL are not for me. Why would such consideration be flawed ?

Regards, Stefan



Nov 20, 2011 at 06:43 AM
carstenw
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p.16 #9 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan




It is certainly true that depending on needs, one could build up a nice system around the NEX, but there are many gaps at the moment, so it isn't yet generally viable. Is the 50 OSS 50 effective, or 75 effective?



Nov 20, 2011 at 08:04 AM
joychris
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p.16 #10 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


A little late to this discussion, but I have the Samyang 14mm 2.8 in Canon mount on my Nex with a Fotodiox Nex/EOS adapter - I get great results. Its fast, wide, very sharp and less than $400. It does look goofy on the Nex body, but I like the shooting with the lens in my hand so for me its not awkward in any way.


Nov 20, 2011 at 09:32 AM
mawz
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p.16 #11 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:


It is certainly true that depending on needs, one could build up a nice system around the NEX, but there are many gaps at the moment, so it isn't yet generally viable. Is the 50 OSS 50 effective, or 75 effective?


50mm lens, 1.5x crop sensor. 75mm-e with respect to FF FoV's

There's no fast normal for the NEX (just the 30/3.5 Macro).



Nov 20, 2011 at 09:50 AM
douglasf13
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p.16 #12 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


slungu wrote:
Now, Carsten, since when do we talk about AF lenses here on the alt forum ?
But now, I think it was not Phillipe's intetion to say that the NEX would be the ideal system for everyone. He was thinking loud about his situation, what he needs in terms of FL and IQ and how he thinks he will manage with the NEX. I for myself have dumped the Canon FF ( even if also for other than photographical reasons at one point in time ), but making a short inventory I think I could do with the ZM18/4 and one
...Show more

Yeah, that's all I'm trying to say, too. I certainly don't mean to imply that everyone should dump their 135 cameras for NEX. I'm just saying that, for myself, the camera's IQ is good enough to where the size of the system outweighs the IQ hits at my print size. I only manual focus, and I only need a wide, standard, short tele and occasional longer tele, so lens options aren't a problem for me. If I was a sports shooter, printed huge, wanted AF, wanted auto aperture, needed a super fast 24mm equiv., shot jpeg**, etc, I would have a very different set of parameters. The NEX-5N is just a little digital back to me that accepts great M lenses and has one of the higher IQ per system size ratios, especially for the price, and I've had no problems with selling off all of my 135 digital gear.

**note: I say jpeg because, since I shoot raw, I rarely need to go into the camera menus at all, and the handling of the 5N is nearly as good as any other camera I've owned in that regard.



Nov 20, 2011 at 12:57 PM
uhoh7
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p.16 #13 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Snopchenko wrote:
Re: the NEX system, it's the good wideangle that's the most sorely missing item. Adaptables from the A mount are not that hot either. For true UWA, that leaves us with using Sigma lenses with LA-EA1 or LA-EA2 adapter (the latter still not being compatible to my wife's older NEX-3 until the firmware is out, and that may take some time). But then, there goes the size advantage, and it's an important consideration as my wife needs to carry that UWA with her in a lady's shoulder bag somehow.


I suggest you become more familar with the sony 16 and .75 adapter.

I have both those two and the sigma 8-16.

The sonys can produce comparable results---but need some TLC to do so. The major source of their bad rep is people using them for P&S and wondering about the crap results. Yes, the DEEP corners fuzz a bit--but on the other hand the sony is a VERY fast 16 which turns into a VERY fast 12 quite nicely with distortion not too bad.

Most ultra wides are useless in low light--so when it comes to what to throw into your purse to use night or day, the sony is just fine.

Learn what apertures the sonys like for various situations and learn to question the AF--verify, and there is little to complain about---unless you are in the habit of looking at every photograph by peering into the 1% on the far corner.



Nov 20, 2011 at 01:54 PM
philber
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p.16 #14 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Sorry uhoh, I can't agree with you on this. I tried two 16s and rejected both, not because of peeping at extreme corners, but because of how the centre looked when stopped down
Since then, I bought one when I bought my 5n, as I already owned a kit zoom left over from my 5. Again, it is so weak that I didn't even bother taking it with me to Japan, and forked out a significant amount of money to get a 18mm, whenI would have been delighted to save that money and take the wider, cheaper, lighter lens. But, as I am too stupid to get any decent result from it, for want of any "clever TLC", I had to forsake using that gem of a lens...



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:17 PM
uhoh7
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p.16 #15 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philber wrote:
Sorry uhoh, I can't agree with you on this. I tried two 16s and rejected both, not because of peeping at extreme corners, but because of how the centre looked when stopped down ...


Maybe my standards are too low

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6203/6103722506_92b31af672_b.jpg
100
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6082/6103173155_c8443b6445_o.jpg

w/ 12mm adapter
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5196/5813944860_446b53c74b_b.jpg



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:31 PM
wfrank
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p.16 #16 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Uhuh, have you tried the Sigma 8-16 on the NEX? What mount? I had it a couple of years ago to a Canon 7D and really liked it.




Nov 20, 2011 at 02:36 PM
uhoh7
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p.16 #17 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


my sigma is alpha mount: 2 examples
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3629/5824887075_27e2ccef2a_b.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6003/6016909288_695f7a9fba_b.jpg

Philber: hows does the wide you left behind perform at 2.8?

What stop did the sony become unusable?

This guy wants to know
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6240/6299208799_f2f4b9dd68_b.jpg



Nov 20, 2011 at 02:50 PM
douglasf13
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p.16 #18 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Yeah, my 16 is pretty darn sharp in the middle. Shoot in 16:9 ratio, and it nearly eradicates the corner issues. That being said, I don't really shoot wides at fast aperture, so I still prefer my CV 15, from what I've seen so far.


Nov 20, 2011 at 03:29 PM
wfrank
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p.16 #19 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


uhoh, what's your verdict of the Sigma 8-16 on the 5N?

Philippe, you've started a great knowledge-sharing thread! :-)

This is 8mm on the 7D, I think I had other standards then, but I'm still happy about the result

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6013/5923292763_6948d04780_b.jpg



Nov 20, 2011 at 03:34 PM
freaklikeme
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p.16 #20 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
Yes, that's my one point. The other is that I find the NEX system quite immature, as a system. The operation is a bit crude, the lenses a bit disappointing. Using good FF lenses with a NEX partly alleviates that, but many of the good FF lenses have really interesting things going on in the corners, and can be somewhat sterile cropped, and anyway, something like a CV15 is no replacement for a 21 Distagon, for example. There are also no really interesting AF lenses at the moment. The Zeiss 24 will hopefully change that, but the NEX system as
...Show more

Agreed, and I think it extends beyond lenses to dedicated system accessories as well. At this time, no other photographic system is as well-supported by the industry as the DSLR.



Nov 20, 2011 at 04:06 PM
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