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Archive 2011 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan

  
 
michael49
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p.15 #1 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


snapsy wrote:
....
The NEX without the EVF has the same horrible ergonomics as a P&S, with the addition of Sony's horrible menu system. The EVF on the NEX-5N transforms it into a different camera. All the buttons seem to be in the right spot when my eye is pressed against the EVF and I have all the control I need (I shoot manual so the rear dial is shutter speed, the center button I've configured for ISO, and the aperture is controlled via the aperture ring on my MF lenses).


Agreed.



Nov 18, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Sosua
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p.15 #2 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Correct, I consider tonality to be closely linked to dynamic range and my D7000 was much better than my 5D 2 for that.

Pull the shadows up and then work the micro-contrast - the best APS-C sensors are great and seem to be developed more regularly.



Nov 18, 2011 at 10:38 PM
traveler
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p.15 #3 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I sold a D700 late last fall when the D7000 was released. I wanted something a bit smaller and lighter as I was having shoulder reconstruction and also ended up having sinus surgery a month after. My November and December were spent pretty much in a stuper. With that said I must say in the end I have not missed my D700. In regards to noise, dynamic range and overall resolution the D7000 has more than just met my needs. Also it's focus capabilities have been outstanding. I messed around from January on with a couple of Micro 4/3rd cameras (the Panny GH-2 and G3) but in the end just sold those both off for a 5N, kit 18-55, 16mm f2.8 pancake and 55-210. I must say so far I've been mightily impressed. It has been pacing my D7000 for IQ rather closely (which is kind of what I'd hoped for in a smaller travel cam). I like the way the Nikon meters as it lifts the shadow rather nicely right off the bat, where the Nex is a bit more conservative. But it's not annoying at all. I think Sony did a heck of a job with this camera, and I"m looking forward to exploring it's limits over the next few months.


Nov 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM
uhoh7
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p.15 #4 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Where I am struggling right now with the n5n is the edges on 35 and wider in landscape work.

Infinity against a mountainside at a mile or more is pretty revealing.

I think I am going to have to give up shooting these at f/4 or even 5.6 where the sensor is supposedly sharpest--I get great centers, but SLR or RF the edges are not keeping up. This with a bunch of different lenses.

At f/8 its alot better.

The 50s and greater seem to handle the faster stops fine.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6095/6361218695_7923964f78_b.jpg
Canon LTM 135/3.5 @f/4



Nov 18, 2011 at 11:22 PM
philber
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p.15 #5 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Uhoh, I am surprised at your issue. I now shoot a ZM 18, and stop it down to f:5.6, or just one stop. with no discernible corner problem. Denoir reported the same on a C3.
My understanding is that, if it is a NEX issue, like it is on the 3/5 with wides, no amount of lens stopping don will cure it. I can demonstrate that with my Contax G21. Actually, on a theoretical level, stopping down actually increases the incident angle of light hitting the corners of the sensor, so it should make matters worse, not better.
OTOH, if stopping down helps, it sounds like a lens issue.
Can you post examples?



Nov 18, 2011 at 11:31 PM
uhoh7
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p.15 #6 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philber wrote:
Uhoh, I am surprised at your issue. I now shoot a ZM 18, and stop it down to f:5.6, or just one stop. with no discernible corner problem. Denoir reported the same on a C3.
My understanding is that, if it is a NEX issue, like it is on the 3/5 with wides, no amount of lens stopping don will cure it. I can demonstrate that with my Contax G21. Actually, on a theoretical level, stopping down actually increases the incident angle of light hitting the corners of the sensor, so it should make matters worse, not better.
OTOH, if stopping down
...Show more

Take a look at wfranks shot with the contax 28
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/969329/117#10096536
has fantastic edges, however hit the full size and check debris in lower left corner; fuzzy.

I'm very curious as to his aperture in that shot.

Obviously it should come as no surpirse the sharpness accross the frame on the wides may be best at f/8 or beyond--though I'd hope my skopars, nikons and canons could manage it somewhat faster.

wfranks shot is really good for checking--now the corner is a bit dim and that could explain it. I'm going to guess he was at least f/8 there. (Nope he was 4-5.6, but that may reinforce my new theory on the wides)

Now here is the 35/1.2 @ f'/22 or maybe more (i was down to 1/80 in bright conditions, ISO 100) Excuse the overexposure, but that thing seems to be pretty good everywhere--if fact maybe great---whereas even at F/8 I see slightly fuzzy edges.

That's my standard out the backdoor shot---which has closer edges than I consider optimum for a good look. I just checked a nikon 28/2 AI shot at 5.6 the same scene it has fussy corners. As you prolly know that is a hell of lens---and its clean.

But it could be my focusing to some degree--I'll start being very careful on the landscapes and see if I can get things sharper off to the sides. As you know its a pain because many adapters go past infinity. Even the hawks is easy to bump and come back a bit.

I guess the good news is that I'm seeing some quite good sharpness at f/16 and 22 from these same wides--which in the classical sense is where I should be anyway

Maybe the sensor optimum of f/4 is not something really tangible.




Nov 19, 2011 at 02:54 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #7 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Douglas, it sounds like you know well about MF, so my caution is clearly not needed. About FF vs. APS-C, I don't think there is a massive difference, but it is there. As Philippe says, part of the difference is in the glass, but also in DR and colour.

There is one fact which appears to have been forgotten almost completely in this thread. If you want to compare FF and APS-C sensors, pitting the D700 against the D7000, or the NEX-5N against the 5D Mark II is meaningless. The technology moves fast, and the FF options are currently several years old, i.e. at least two generations, so here is my counter-challenge for those who claim that there is little difference: please use APS-C results from cameras released around the time of the D3 and 5DII to show that there is no difference. If you want to compare apples to apples, we will have to wait until the 1D-X is out. There will be a difference (again). Planning a kit for the future, it is necessary not just to look at the current options, but also what might come.

About the glass, Philippe has hit it bang on the head, there is not, and likely never will be the same variety of high-end great or interesting glass for APS-C that there is for FF. This is where my interest in APS-C dies. m4/3 has had more longevity and the interesting glass is beginning to be in place, such as the 12/2, 25/1.4 and 45/1.8.



Nov 19, 2011 at 04:41 AM
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p.15 #8 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
About the glass, Philippe has hit it bang on the head, there is not, and likely never will be the same variety of high-end great or interesting glass for APS-C that there is for FF. This is where my interest in APS-C dies.

Just use the FF glass while being thankful that the worst performing corners are out of the picture (literally), what's not to like?


m4/3 has had more longevity and the interesting glass is beginning to be in place, such as the 12/2, 25/1.4 and 45/1.8.

Ah, some salt for wounds of the non-µ4/3 users. If only there had been a similarly affordable (I don't hope for compactness) kit for any other format, including the NEX.



Nov 19, 2011 at 05:49 AM
httivals
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p.15 #9 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


i agree with Carsten. The m43 glass is consistently excellent, affordable, compact and lightweight. It's what makes the system. If I were to buy an Nex 7 it would be to use with the new Zeiss 24mm f1.8. Unfortunately, the Sony 16 mm pancake was apparently of low quality, or it would have made the system much more interesting.

carstenw wrote:
There is one fact which appears to have been forgotten almost completely in this thread. If you want to compare FF and APS-C sensors, pitting the D700 against the D7000, or the NEX-5N against the 5D Mark II is meaningless. The technology moves fast, and the FF options are currently several years old, i.e. at least two generations, so here is my counter-challenge for those who claim that there is little difference: please use APS-C results from cameras released around the time of the D3 and 5DII to show that there is no difference. If you want to compare apples
...Show more



Nov 19, 2011 at 06:35 AM
xbarcelo
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p.15 #10 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I, for one, don't agree with Carsten. On the one hand, it makes a point of looking into the future and says that we should not consider current full frame against current APS-C (because, if you go to the shops, that's what you find… A900, 5DmkIII, D3, against K5, NEX5N, etc, regardless of the fact that generations are different) and we should plan according to what's to come (and not take into account that maybe it'll be delayed for a long long time, for whatever circumstances). On the other hand, he says that we should pick m43 because currently it's the best mirrorless system. Now, it looks to me that NEX's got a very good potential, with interesting lenses about to be released and some planed, plus also there's the potential of adapting any other brand's lens, which m43 has in a lesser extend, because of the crop factor. So… potential or present?
I'd say NEX it's a useful proposition and it's up to you to take it or not, but it seems it's trying to force an argument to justify not using it because of future and current reason simultaneously.

Xavier



Nov 19, 2011 at 07:17 AM
alwang
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p.15 #11 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
There is one fact which appears to have been forgotten almost completely in this thread. If you want to compare FF and APS-C sensors, pitting the D700 against the D7000, or the NEX-5N against the 5D Mark II is meaningless. The technology moves fast, and the FF options are currently several years old, i.e. at least two generations, so here is my counter-challenge for those who claim that there is little difference: please use APS-C results from cameras released around the time of the D3 and 5DII to show that there is no difference. If you want to compare apples
...Show more

I'm not sure your counter-challenge would be any more fair: one of the advantages of APS-C is the much faster product improvement cycles, because of the lower cost of production and larger market sizes. In addition, because of the relatively low price of these bodies, you really can afford to upgrade fairly frequently. The downside to this, as has been well-described in this thread, is that less investment is paid in product design for any one camera release, and you may need to relearn the controls of your camera more often.



Nov 19, 2011 at 07:35 AM
michael49
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p.15 #12 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
Douglas, it sounds like you know well about MF, so my caution is clearly not needed. About FF vs. APS-C, I don't think there is a massive difference, but it is there. As Philippe says, part of the difference is in the glass, but also in DR and colour.

There is one fact which appears to have been forgotten almost completely in this thread. If you want to compare FF and APS-C sensors, pitting the D700 against the D7000, or the NEX-5N against the 5D Mark II is meaningless. The technology moves fast, and the FF options are currently several years
...Show more


Not trying to start a FF vs APS-C battle, because I know those can get ugly , but here is a couple of comparisons I did between my 5D and 40D years ago.....

5D vs 40D, both with 24-105....

40D....
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/photos/429275017_CpU9r-L.jpg

5D...
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/photos/429271010_xjfYB-L.jpg


40D left, 5D right.....
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/photos/379786075_wdVkb-O.jpg


Now, there are some things that FF is clearly better at, its much easier to produce this degree of subject isolation with normal and wide angle lenses on FF vs APS-C.....

Sigma 50 1.4 @ f/2 on 5D....
http://brownphotography.smugmug.com/photos/680136741_E7qgZ-XL.jpg



Nov 19, 2011 at 08:53 AM
philber
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p.15 #13 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Where I agree with you, Michael is that current DSLR FF bodies today are all on their last legs. While they still produce fine images, they are about to be replaced, presumably by better ones. So comparing them against the latest APS-C sensors (Sony 16 Mp, and 24 Mp) introduces a bias. Where I respectfully differ is the glass. There is unquestionably more native glass on M4/3, but not of the same caliber as the best alt glass (Leica M, Zeiss ZM, Contax G). This great glass can of course be used on M4/3, but with less IQ benefit than on NEX because of the lesser sensor, and with a greater crop factor.
So the question I asked on this thread is: is NEX advanced enough today to pick up where 5DII leaves off? If not, then M4/3 even less so. Whether either system is acceptable as a backup, which is Carsten's position, or Luka's (denoir) is altogether different IMHO.



Nov 19, 2011 at 09:56 AM
Beni
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p.15 #14 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


uhoh7 wrote:
OK lets see it Quite a few in here have both FF and Nex. Lets see the tonality deficit!

PP Nice to see samples both with auto WB and and after PP. Be nice to have consise details on PP.

We can all visualize the DOF FOV. Now lets see the tones.. Why would a FF have an inherent tonal advantage? Or is this just a sony thing?



I don't have like for like comparisons, the processing is for the 'look' that I work with, the evaluation was based on my own feel of the images. Extremely subjective and as such I'm not posting samples just to be shot down for having an opinion. I reserve the right to have an opinion as to the tonality of the files and to make a purchasing choice based on it. If it helps my benchmark for tonality is the 4X5 film I used to shoot and since then everything has just only ever being playing catch up...



Nov 19, 2011 at 11:15 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.15 #15 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


xbarcelo wrote:
I, for one, don't agree with Carsten. On the one hand, it makes a point of looking into the future and says that we should not consider current full frame against current APS-C (because, if you go to the shops, that's what you find… A900, 5DmkIII, D3, against K5, NEX5N, etc, regardless of the fact that generations are different) and we should plan according to what's to come (and not take into account that maybe it'll be delayed for a long long time, for whatever circumstances). On the other hand, he says that we should pick m43 because currently it's
...Show more

+1

Rumors say the future Fuji X interchangeable lens rangefinder style cam will have an APS-C sized sensor that will blow any FF sensor away. So how are we supposed to take than into account when trying to decide what camera to buy today. If that's true when that camera comes out, we should then assume that the next generation of FF will be better than that - with that logic we would never be able to buy a camera.



Nov 19, 2011 at 12:24 PM
philber
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p.15 #16 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff, as long as the Fuji has interchangeable lenses, it is extremely likely that adapters will appear that will let one use legacy MF glass on it as well as on NEX or M 4/3. So your investment in glass would be 100% protected; As long as you "only" have a 5N, your investment in a camera body is limited, and will not be worth much anyhow after some 3 years. Body obsolescence and loss of value is the negative side of the coin, the positive side of which is rapidly improving performance.

Edited on Nov 19, 2011 at 12:40 PM · View previous versions



Nov 19, 2011 at 12:30 PM
Jeff Kott
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p.15 #17 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philber wrote:
Jeff, as long as the Fuji has interchangeable lenses, it is extremely likely that adapters will appear that will let one use legacy MF glass on it as well as on NEX or M 4/3. So your investment in glass would be 100% protected; As long as you "onl" have a 5N, your investment in a camera body is limited, and will not be worth much anyhow after some 3 years. Body obsolescence and loss of value is the negative side of the coin, the positive side of which is rapidly improving performance.


I've got a 5N plus my Nikon and Pentax bodies and a NEX 7 on order. I've got no hesitation to buy a camera based on what's available today, but rather was saying that in general I don't think it makes sense to compare sensors on cameras available today to some hypothetical improvement down the road. This is especially true because with the last batch of sensors (both FF and the current APS) the print output is great.



Nov 19, 2011 at 12:37 PM
douglasf13
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p.15 #18 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
Douglas, it sounds like you know well about MF, so my caution is clearly not needed. About FF vs. APS-C, I don't think there is a massive difference, but it is there. As Philippe says, part of the difference is in the glass, but also in DR and colour.

There is one fact which appears to have been forgotten almost completely in this thread. If you want to compare FF and APS-C sensors, pitting the D700 against the D7000, or the NEX-5N against the 5D Mark II is meaningless. The technology moves fast, and the FF options are currently several years
...Show more

Sensors have matured to the point where what we have right now is very good for the print sizes I'm currently using. I've yet to make a print with the A900 or current aps-c camera where a little more DR and tonality or a little less noise would have made it more successful, and this isn't 2002, where every sensor generation was making leaps and bounds. I'll gladly take improvements in the future***, but, for right now, I choose the massive system size advantage of the 5N over the slight IQ improvements of my A900...or even the likely improvements in the next generation of 135 cameras. Of course, if someone made a 135 camera in a small package, I'd have no problem going that route. I'm not arguing that larger sensors aren't better. I'm just weighing the IQ advantage against other attributes, and NEX is the current sweetspot for me.

As far as lenses are concerned, I'm primarily an all manual, standard and/or short tele shooter a large majority of the time, so there are tons of options out there for me with just about any system. Except on the widest end, adjusting my lenses for aps-c hasn't been too big of a deal, and I've been fine with the CV 15 for wide shots.


***note: Since sensors have gotten so good, I'm wondering if some of us may keep our digital cameras for longer than in the past, as the sensor IQ "signature" may start becoming a part of our personal style?? Many film shooters didn't change to a new film every year or two, despite improvements being made in film quality, because that film became part of their "look." Hmm, not sure.



Nov 19, 2011 at 01:04 PM
wfrank
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p.15 #19 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


douglasf13 wrote:
Sensors have matured to the point where what we have right now is very good for the print sizes I'm currently using. I've yet to make a print with the A900 or current aps-c camera where a little more DR and tonality or a little less noise would have made it more successful, and this isn't 2002, where every sensor generation was making leaps and bounds. I'll gladly take improvements in the future***, but, for right now, I choose the massive system size advantage of the 5N over the slight IQ improvements of my A900...
...
***note: I wonder about this statement
...Show more

Oh no, sensors aren't that good. How about a sensor with doubled DR? We're so used with the look of 20th century photographs and therefor think that that look is proper. An outblown sky in a shot from a shadowed narrow street, is that what we saw? Of course not.

But the difference in DR between APS-C (current) and FF (from 2008) may be minute.



Nov 19, 2011 at 01:49 PM
uhoh7
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p.15 #20 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


philber wrote:
Uhoh, please forgive me for disagreeing. I am not saying that what you see isn't there, just that your general conlusion of everything soft below f:16 unless the lens is longer than 35mm doesn't tally with my experience.
To wit, this shot with ZM 18, which conveniently supplies bricks on two corners, as good a softness indicator as any. It is shot most probably at f:5.6, my standard aperture on the ZM, or possibily f:8.0. I don't remember having gone to f:11, DOF not being a concern on such a lens.
Furthermore, if what you said applied as generically as you think,
...Show more

Hi Philippe

Oh never worry about disagreeing with me I'm often wrong, and how else will I learn?

Obviously the ZM18 is working great---maybe the best around 20 I've seen. I've got a strong 20 but it's big: nFD 20/2.8
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6052/6365343425_44d3306ca0_b.jpg
full
here it is this morning at f/16. This lens is my stongest in the corners at f/4--amoung the wides. However it seems just as sharp at f/16. Funny enough the CV 21 has possibly even better centers now with the 5n---but I need to find the sweet spot for the edges.

On the other hand the nikon 28/2 has much better edges at f/16 and comparable centers, but softens beyond that.

So it does look like a case by case case of glass And you cannot always predict the best performers from their reputation.



Nov 19, 2011 at 05:01 PM
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