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Archive 2011 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan

  
 
AhamB
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p.14 #1 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


loosh wrote:
Look above - somebody is asking for a "heavy for it's size" body? How can a company justify a heavy "compact" to go along with its' DLSR line? They cannot win.


Seems very simple to me. Solid metal build, yet compact -> heavy for its size.



Nov 18, 2011 at 11:28 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.14 #2 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
I think it is a mistake to go from a 5DII to a NEX camera. The drop in IQ is too large: sharpness, ISO, FF look. I think it makes more sense to get an even smaller camera for when IQ is not an issue, and keep the FF camera for when it is. And apparently, there are some people who miss a bit of IQ after starting to use a NEX, and are now looking at medium format, because FF is too close Why rotate the world around the NEX? Keep FF and get a m4/3 or Nikon
...Show more

This is very judgmental on your part. I like my APS-C sensors and am totally happy with the 16x24 prints I get with my Epson 4900 using my D300, K-5 and NEX 5N and don't think you should be saying since the quality of my APS-C cameras isn't good enough I should just throw in the towel and use Micro 4/3. Have you looked at the difference in dynamic range between Micro 4/3 and the current crop of APS-C sensors?



Nov 18, 2011 at 11:39 AM
p9168k
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p.14 #3 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Everybody has their own unique needs/wants. There's no such a thing as better or worse in photography and trying to prove the other that their wrong. Each system has its own strengths and weaknesses. I think it's great we now have the option of a NEX camera. It's no longer just a decision between P&S or DSLR or the niche Leica M8, M9. Who would have thought few years ago that people would be talking about mounting Zeiss, Leica and other exotic glass on a Nex like camera and saying that the output can come close or even equal DSLR quality. These are exciting products and I can't wait to see what else happens down the road.


Nov 18, 2011 at 11:56 AM
Jeff Kott
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p.14 #4 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


pkupcik wrote:
Everybody has their own unique needs/wants. There's no such a thing as better or worse in photography and trying to prove the other that their wrong. Each system has its own strengths and weaknesses. I think it's great we now have the option of a NEX camera. It's no longer just a decision between P&S or DSLR or the niche Leica M8, M9. Who would have thought few years ago that people would be talking about mounting Zeiss, Leica and other exotic glass on a Nex like camera and saying that the output can come close or even equal DSLR
...Show more


I really agree with your points. My problem with this thread is that everyone is so negative and I feel we have lots of fantastic options available to us. I've been waiting for a camera like the NEX 7 for years and am very excited about it. If somewhere down the road someone comes out with a compelling FF small sized camera, that will be even better. But right now, I think these are exciting times for photo enthusiasts and I'm going to enjoy the rich variety of products available to us.



Nov 18, 2011 at 12:00 PM
crazeazn
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p.14 #5 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff Kott wrote:
I really agree with your points. My problem with this thread is that everyone is so negative and I feel we have lots of fantastic options available to us. I've been waiting for a camera like the NEX 7 for years and am very excited about it. If somewhere down the road someone comes out with a compelling FF small sized camera, that will be even better. But right now, I think these are exciting times for photo enthusiasts and I'm going to enjoy the rich variety of products available to us.


I actually don't think its negative. Rather, I think it points our inner-need to make things better. To me, the digital photography "software" right now is still in its infant stages. The hardware exists (components, sensors etc al) so the next step is to make it easier and polished (kind of like what Apple does) Give it a couple more years and the proper designs will come out. Remember this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Nomad.jpg/800px-Nomad.jpg

To me denoir's analogy of the M9 being tacked on from old m5/6 bits is exactly that old creative nomad. It works fine in that form factor, but it can def. be much much better.



Nov 18, 2011 at 01:10 PM
philber
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p.14 #6 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff, I am not sure that "everyone is so negative" in this thread. In my case, I delight in the choices I have, that I would never have had 3 years ago. My 5N is better than my 40D was then, by quite a handsome margin, and the 7 will be better yet. Yea!


Nov 18, 2011 at 01:20 PM
h00ligan
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p.14 #7 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I took a few minutes to read the manual and setup the customs buttons / understand what they were doing. It's a lot better now.

It's a shame the menu button can't be swapped to the bottom as others have said. Also, when shooting shutter priority with aperture set on the lens...and auto iso, the nex is under exposing by 2/3 stops. That seems to be pretty par for the course with digital cameras, I'll dial in +1/3 and split the difference. A third stop in post isn't a big deal either way.

I think the nex7 is going to answer a fair amount of questions from the 5, ergonomics specifically. It's going to be a real bummer if it goes back to more corner problems like the 5.

I'm heading out on a consulting gig a bit later, and will probably walk around Tempe to test the camera in more than my yards...

The contax g 45 really is a great lens, better than the 28/2.8 IMO. Its a shame the zeiss 24 isn't available yet.

With the g lenses (where the adaptor has the focus ring) I can't see being fast enough for people shots outside of zone focusing..which is fine. I would think m mount glass would make this a lot easier, with evf.



Nov 18, 2011 at 01:31 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #8 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Jeff Kott wrote:
This is very judgmental on your part. I like my APS-C sensors and am totally happy with the 16x24 prints I get with my Epson 4900 using my D300, K-5 and NEX 5N and don't think you should be saying since the quality of my APS-C cameras isn't good enough I should just throw in the towel and use Micro 4/3. Have you looked at the difference in dynamic range between Micro 4/3 and the current crop of APS-C sensors?


Why judgemental? Like you, I post a mix of fact and opinion, nothing more. Free speech?

The difference between FF and APS-C is about the same as APS-C to m4/3. If you are used to FF results, APS-C is unlikely to satisfy you. Some who moved from FF to APS-C are now wanting to add a high-quality option, but the next major step up is medium format, so it makes much more sense financially and from a weight perspective to just keep FF and add m4/3, IMO.



Nov 18, 2011 at 01:39 PM
wfrank
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p.14 #9 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Although I agree with most of the mentioned UI flaws of the 5N I think you people that are concerned with industrial design are missing out one major piece. The NEX series is simply a thick rectangle with a handgrip and a circular mount above the sensor. That's it. It's minimalistic, ingenious and simple. Think about that to ease your pain ;-)



Nov 18, 2011 at 01:57 PM
h00ligan
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p.14 #10 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


The designs necessitates trips to the menu. Why can't I have format in my custom menu? Why can't I have whatever I want?


Nov 18, 2011 at 02:03 PM
xbarcelo
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p.14 #11 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I've never had any camera that didn't need to go to a menu to format! (and I've had my fare share: Olympus, canon, sony alpha and now nex). Is it a nikon or pentax thing?


Nov 18, 2011 at 02:14 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #12 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I don't know about the Pentax, but on at least some Nikons, if you hold the Trash and Mode buttons down for maybe three seconds, you can initiate formatting.

I am happy to have that, but I don't think it is a big deal. I do find the NEX menus confusing though, and don't particularly like the feel or operation either.



Nov 18, 2011 at 02:29 PM
wfrank
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p.14 #13 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Even the slight UI differences between Canon flagships 7D (crop 2009) and 5DMkII (FF 2008) annoyed me when I moved to FF going back in time somewhat. We just like to be picky here, and with all rights! :-)

I wont sell my 5D for the NEX, I like both with all their glitches. Of course, both would have been perfect for what they are if I had designed them. Really.



Nov 18, 2011 at 02:48 PM
douglasf13
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p.14 #14 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


carstenw wrote:
Why judgemental? Like you, I post a mix of fact and opinion, nothing more. Free speech?

The difference between FF and APS-C is about the same as APS-C to m4/3. If you are used to FF results, APS-C is unlikely to satisfy you. Some who moved from FF to APS-C are now wanting to add a high-quality option, but the next major step up is medium format, so it makes much more sense financially and from a weight perspective to just keep FF and add m4/3, IMO.


I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't currently need a higher quality option. I'm saying that, if I did, I would skip up to MFDB at that point. I used to assist for a high end pro that shot mostly H1s, so I'm very familiar with the weight (that 55-110 is a beast.) My point is that, if I need a camera heavier than the nex system with better quality files, the extra weight of an H1 or whatever wouldn't bother me any more than a dslr, because I wouldn't be hauling it around with me all of the time.

Some of you must be regularly making some large prints, because I've yet to see a massive drop off from FF to aps-c at my modest 13x19 print size.



Nov 18, 2011 at 03:06 PM
h00ligan
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p.14 #15 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


xbarcelo wrote:
I've never had any camera that didn't need to go to a menu to format! (and I've had my fare share: Olympus, canon, sony alpha and now nex). Is it a nikon or pentax thing?


Quick menu on mft. Yes, the menu trip is there, but it's right there..not in one of five and then a good ways down. My problem is its not intuitive, I'm constantly looking for the bloody format option!



Nov 18, 2011 at 03:44 PM
uhoh7
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p.14 #16 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


h00ligan wrote:
Quick menu on mft. Yes, the menu trip is there, but it's right there..not in one of five and then a good ways down. My problem is its not intuitive, I'm constantly looking for the bloody format option!


Be sure you are set to "return to last menu item", then when you hit "setup" its right there. Also the on/off for peaking is just below that.

It's very fast when you get used to it. But you do need to look.

Many ergo complaints are more from the frustration of breaking habit than some terrible menu design. E.G. one of my clients has a 7D I help her with. I hate the interface. Why? I'm am not used to it.

WHich is not to say the rants above about digi camera design in general are not valid.

Here's an entertaining thread about traveling with the M9



Nov 18, 2011 at 04:34 PM
xbarcelo
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p.14 #17 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


Now, that I find a lot more annoying… on / off for peaking. Format… I don't format all that often, so I don't care tripping to the menu. On/off peaking… that's another story! But I guess it's all a matter of getting used to it, as you say uhoh7.
Yes, the NEX UI is different and it's got stuff placed in different spots, but it's not so bad and it really takes a little while to use it. But it needs a chance, not a couple of test shots.
But then, if you're set to hate it from the start, you're probably going to hate it anyway.



Nov 18, 2011 at 05:42 PM
philip_pj
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p.14 #18 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


"Some of you must be regularly making some large prints, because I've yet to see a massive drop off from FF to aps-c at my modest 13x19 print size."

I see your take on it, douglas and agree it is the best approach for your present wishes and needs.

True enough re the small and nuanced step in what one might call quality, but (1) the real win for FF is cropability. It amazes me that so many photographers see the world as reflected in their work purely in the 3:2 dimension. I think the image should guide us to its final aspect ratio, I often see my finished images in near to square, or 4:3, for example. Start taking chunks from APS-C or smaller and you do lose a lot more precious 'sensor real estate' - in relative terms - especially for low Mp sensors.

People need not print very large to (2) *want the capacity* to do so in the future. If a trip to where you want to shoot costs say $4,000, I don't want to impose restrictions on the output or its future use, within cost constraints.

There must be a lot of disappointed early digital adopters looking back on their 2002 output and wondering how to resurrect their files for larger prints.

So there are two good reasons for travelling photographers to go with FF, along with (3) the dearth of great, functional, small wide angle lenses in APS-C and, relatedly, the better lens manufacturers not taking their lens lineups seriously in several areas with respect to both size/bulk and optical quality, after how long of APS-C - 8 or 9 years?

To which you can add (4) the 5-6 decades of legacy optics that 'breathe' best on full frame cameras, and instill a graceful sense of yesteryear, warts and all.

Final note on ergonomics - it's best to 'work around' a camera you really like the output from, than to buy one you like using but which does not deliver what you want. You forget that fiddly button fast while gazing at a wonderful image on screen or print, but the converse is not true: 'not much of a print but man those buttons were great when I pressed 'em!'



Nov 18, 2011 at 06:37 PM
douglasf13
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p.14 #19 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


I shoot square and other ratios all of the time. Pixel count influences the ease of doing this more than sensor size, for the most part, when you're talking a relatively modest sensor size increase from aps-c to 135.

Again, with 135 cameras being on an approximately 3x longer refresh rate than aps-c cameras, there are times such as now when the best aps-c cameras' IQ starts bumping up against 135 cameras that are a few years old, and that will especially be the case with the upcoming NEX-7. I don't think 2002 cameras are particularly relevant to the discussion, because those resolutions were struggling to make even modest sized prints at that time. Now we are at resolutions where even 20x30 prints look good, so basing IQ decisions on some incredibly large, potential or imaginary print that may never happen is misplacing priorities a bit. In fact, if it wasn't for size and ergonomic advantages, why were so many choosing 35mm over medium format film in the past? HCB chose Leica 35mm over medium format for the same reasons, and Leica wasn't even held in the same regard as Ikon at that point. He was really slumming it.

If this discussion was about sensors that were further apart in size, I think it would be a little more sticky, but as someone who's shot a ton of both the most recent 135 technology and aps-c technology, the differences are subtle. I'm very happy with the CV 15/4.5 on the NEX-5N, and it competes rather well with my 20mm prime on my A900. Sure, I didn't have the BEST wide angle lens for my a900, the Zeiss 21/2.8, so I can't compare to that specifically, but I'm comparing the CV 15 to a perfectly capable full frame lens.

The massive adoption of m4/3s in the last few years has shown that, despite having a much wider IQ discrepancy with 135 when compared to aps-c, many have been willing to work within realistic print size bounds if it means a more ergonomic and/or enjoyable experience, or if it means the camera being in hand at the right time. Buying a car because it goes 200mph in case you may need it if you're in a random car chase probably isn't worth it if the car is uncomfortable to drive and costs a fortune, or if you never actually drive the car.

That being said, an unbloated, 135 DSLR would make waves and be great, as would an even smaller 135 mirror less camera. As of right now, we've only got one 135 camera that's a reasonable size, so I'm not really interested in sacrificing size for modest IQ gains, anymore. Of course, it's all a sliding scale, so YMMV.

p.s. while I respect preferring different lens looks, stating that there's an advantage to using 135 glass on 135 cameras because of more vignetting, corner softness and other types of "character" is a bit dubious. I'd imagine that most would praise any company that built lenses for their 135 cameras that exhibit none of the aberrations that our current 135 lenses exhibit, but cost and size is what is limiting manufacturers from doing so.



Nov 18, 2011 at 08:12 PM
michael49
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p.14 #20 · Giving up 5D II for NEX? My experience in Japan


uhoh7 wrote:
....

OK lets see it Quite a few in here have both FF and Nex. Lets see the tonality deficit!

...



Agreed.

No offense, but I call "full frame snobbery b.s." I work in medicine and see the placebo effect in action every day.

When I owned both a 5d and 5d2 I did numerous comparisons with my APS-C cameras and there was very little difference in tonality and color (I can post some comparisons if anyone is interested). There was of course a difference in DOF and sometimes high ISO performance, but tonality? - I didn't see that.



Nov 18, 2011 at 09:46 PM
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