carstenw wrote:
I am not suddenly voicing objections, btw. I have always done so, although maybe not for each and every post. The thing is that this forum is great because of its altness.
This thread hasn't wrecked the special altness of this place in the last four months, but today you needed to stomp all over it to save the forum. Brilliant.
I see the Alt forum as a larger arena, where all types of alternative uses of cameras and lenses, along with emerging product lines, should be welcomed and fostered, whether that is Twilight/time exposure methodology, or Panoramic and photo stitch, or Nex/M43. That's why I started these few threads and why they get a decent response from talented photographers and others trying their hand at something different. If they use standard manufacturer equipment in an unconventional way, I don't see how we can either rule that out, or try to have the topic sequestered in multiplicty on Alt, Canon, and Nikon forums. (Based on true Alt-ishness, the electronically mated ZE, CV, and other lenses shouldn't be considered "Alt".)
Perhaps the situation isn't ideal, but it seems most appropriate situated here on the Alt forum. And like obik, I don't see it doing any harm or detracting from other efforts. Someone who is a fan of smaller brands might likewise complain that there is an over emphasis on Zeiss, or Leica, and wish to limit that "market share" of the bandwidth. I'm not one of those people! I say there is plenty of room here for all the interests currently being offered.
As you say, there is a lot more distraction by allowing Sony, Pentax, etc, and especially the Nex and M4/3 threads -- those are about as mainstream as anything can be, except for the more rare mounting of Alt lenses. But I don't think anyone objects.
If we were to strip away all these "non-Alt" threads and responses, this would be a pretty bleak and clinical forum area.
I don't think there is much danger of many multiple threads of Twilight, but if it becomes that popular, I don't see it hurting.
I hate to give unsolicited advice, but if someone doesn't like a particular thread topic, no one else is forcing them to read, much less participate.
I agree that no one needs to read any threads. I do not agree that night photography is alt. It is as old as photography itself. I think that all that happens if we strip away non-alt stuff is that alt stuff remains, as was intended…
Well, I cannot convince anyone by force, and I am not going to report anything to anyone, so I guess in the end the only way I can react is to ignore it, use the Hide Me button, or leave.
For obik and Technician, don't take this personally, as I am not targeting anyone, but you guys have barely contributed to the forum yet, and are already trying to bend the rules. I don't see how that is cool. Put in your time and then see if you really think things would be better if we start posting Canon and Nikon photos here.
obik -- Thanks for your contributions. It is about the pictures, and having one place to share amongst all people interested in the topic.
Carsten -- If the thread dies from lack of interest or postings, so be it. I might have started the thread, but I don't own it (I hate originators who take a proprietary position regarding threads).
carstenw wrote:
For obik and Technician, don't take this personally, as I am not targeting anyone
It's funny, but after four months of posts, suddenly jumping on Technician sure seems like a personal attack. It's also seems petty, pissy, and small-minded.
I don't see how that is cool.
And I don't see how throwing your weight around and getting someone else to pull down pictures that were absolutely in keeping with the theme of an explicitly gear-neutral thread is cool either.
Put in your time and then see if you really think things would be better if we start posting Canon and Nikon photos here.
Here's a better idea. Drop the bullshit and report this thread to the moderator. If it's such a threat to the forum, surely Fred will take action.
carstenw wrote:
For obik and Technician, don't take this personally, as I am not targeting anyone, but you guys have barely contributed to the forum yet, and are already trying to bend the rules. I don't see how that is cool.
That's a reminder for a very old soviet mindset: 'What have you done to <whatever>?'. The statement about targeting is in massive contradiction to the rest of your message, because absolute number of forum posts is nothing to be proud of. I know many idiots with 20000 posts behind their backs and many very interesting people which hate to use internet for communication. Subject matters, not quantity. At the end of the day, I am newbie here, yes, but this doesn't mean that I came to impose everyone to obey my anarchy. I am not outlaw or rebel freak, so your statement that I am trying to bend the rules is really offensive.
I'm very unhappy to see what was a pleasant and informative thread turned into this.
Carsten -- I'm very disappointed in you. Pushing your agenda has done nobody any favors, and simply works to discourage imput that you are not in favor of.
Perhaps we can all move past this and get back to the purpose of the thread.
Gunzorro wrote:
I'm very unhappy to see what was a pleasant and informative thread turned into this.
So am I, and I regret to say that I have to shoulder a fair portion of the blame. My replies to Carsten were aggressive, needlessly caustic, and more than a little childlish. For that, I apologize to Carsten, to you, and to the rest of the forum. I'm an angry person at heart, and often fly off the handle. I will try to temper my responses in the future.
But I stand by my belief that the alt forum is strong enough to handle two low-traffic threads where Canikon lenses are welcome.
The original thread was already a border case. Night time photography has nothing to do with alt gear per se. But fine, if one makes it about night time photography with alt gear, one could sort of include it in the general theme of the forum. It's a stretch, but still one most people posting here won't have too much of a problem with. However if you remove the alt criteria altogether, then where's the connection to this forum? If you refuse to draw the line anywhere then why not post a thread dedicated to, say, political discussions?
If there is to be a general theme for this forum you need to draw the line somewhere. Carsten's idea of where the line should be drawn is pretty reasonable as it's based on the description of what this forum is supposed to be about.
I do understand the wish to post images from Canon & Nikon lenses here. The alt forum is basically a separate community and a lot of people have a mix of alt and Canonikon lenses. It's natural to want to share the images within the community where one usually posts. I have in fact myself been arguing for a dedicated Canon and Nikon thread here (since we debate lens rendering a lot, excluding the most common brands isn't a great solution). There were those that objected, essentially on the same grounds that Carsten is objecting now and we had a fruitful general discussion about it.
My point being that it's a relevant discussion. We need to draw the line somewhere if the alt forum is not to become some bland 'anything goes' bulletin board. And in that context Carsten's objections are perfectly valid - regardless if you ultimately agree with them or not. The solution is to discuss it and come to a general consensus.
Also, as for as obik's suggestion goes, one of the traditions of this forum is that we don't require moderator supervision but handle disputes internally through discussion and in a polite way.
The objections should have been made four months ago, not now.
However if you remove the alt criteria altogether, then where's the connection to this forum?
The people. People are what makes forums good or bad, not rules.
If you refuse to draw the line anywhere then why not post a thread dedicated to, say, political discussions?
Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. The thing that will stop political discussions is the fact that this is a photography website, and that this forum is dedicated to alt gear. That's also what will stop the forum being turned into another Canon/Nikon forum--the interests of the community will drive the conversation. Just look at the forum as it exists today: the forum is thriving, the overwhelming majority of the images posted are from alt lenses, the EF mount thread has died unloved and unmourned, and all of that in spite of this poisonous thread being active for four months.
If there is to be a general theme for this forum you need to draw the line somewhere. Carsten's idea of where the line should be drawn is pretty reasonable as it's based on the description of what this forum is supposed to be about.
Lines need to be drawn, but I don't think they should be carved in stone, and if they're going to be carved in stone, infractions should be pointed out promptly. Letting a low traffic thread slide for months, then suddenly singling out one poster and acting like this thread will be the death of the alt community is bizarre. Look at the first page of posts in this thread--it's overwhelmingly Canon lenses on Canon bodies. How was that not a problem four months ago, but is suddenly a problem now?
Do you object to the people listing Canon or Nikon lenses in the "Holy trinity" thread? There's a lot of that going around. Quite a few Canon and Nikon lenses listed in the "magical lens" thread too. And that's not even getting into the Canon and Nikon images posted in the film thread.
I have in fact myself been arguing for a dedicated Canon and Nikon thread here (since we debate lens rendering a lot, excluding the most common brands isn't a great solution). There were those that objected, essentially on the same grounds that Carsten is objecting now and we had a fruitful general discussion about it.
I've followed that debate and I disagree with your stance. If someone wants to post a comparison between Canon lens X and alt lens Y, that's one thing, but a Canikon thread just to look at rendering? GIS or Flickr will give you that.
Also, as for as obik's suggestion goes, one of the traditions of this forum is that we don't require moderator supervision but handle disputes internally through discussion and in a polite way.
I've been reading this forum for a _very_ long time, and I know the customs. Carsten used the appeal to authority fallacy, I just threw it back at him in the literal sense.
Luka -- I appreciate your comments, but the main issue is that there is nowhere more appropriate on the FM boards for those who appreciate and pursue out-of-the-ordinary subject matter using a wide variety of equipment. If a thread were posted on the Canon forum, no other "brands" would be encouraged. Same with Nikon and Alt forums. This would shatter any continuity of the subject/topic, and would force some to have to needlessly post in multiple fora, if they use more than one category of equipment.
You didn't address my comments that ZE, CV, and other current lenses produced specifically for the larger brand bodies aren't really Alt as they are designed to specifically couple and coordinate with Cannikon (and now moving into Sony and others). And while I'm on the subject, ranting, how exactly is film Alt? Or Medium Format? Or mass produced Nex and M4/3. Really!! Those are so un-Alt as to be funny (unless using an adapter to mount off-brand lenses). If we were to ban those topics/equipment for the Alt forum, it would cut a wide swath through the Alt community, yet, because so many of us would be negatively impacted, we let it slide. Subjects like Pano and Twilight have a much smaller demographic, so it would be easier to exclude, but unfairly, IMO.
I'm probably in the wrong, but it seems the Alt forum was originally to satisfy a need for the quality gear excluded in the Cannikon forums. But it has now expanded beyond that to "What is Alt picture taking?", encompassing technique and software as much as the earlier emphasis on Zeiss, Leica, Ikonta, etc.
I'm no more or less a purist than most posters on the Alt forum.
Alternative Gear & Lenses
Digital systems other than Canon/Nikon, including alternative lens solutions.
Quadratisch. Praktisch. Gut!
Many cool things die when someone behaves like a 80-old granny on the janitor's post. Do you wish to do like that? If you are such zealot, then ban film thread. 142 pages of sheer contradiction. We're on the forum for the digital stuff, right? And what the hell Berlin Photo Meet has to do here? fredmiranda.com has specially dedicated forum for meetings and parties. I have zero patience and tolerance for people like you, Carsten. You break the rules here and there and at the same time you catch other people like a polizei catches those criminals. This is nothing but hipocrisy.
My involvement here started like this, friendly enough:
Hmm, I like your shots, but it is really against the spirit of this forum to post Nikon or Canon photos with modern Nikon or Canon AF lenses…
I think everything that got thrown my way as a result is way out of proportion. I have now used the Hide Me button twice, and will leave this thread permanently. Technician, please look and think before you point the finger: the Berlin thread is for people to meet, discuss and test alt equipment and the photos in it are all alt. I don't know a single person over in the meetings forum.
In defense of carstenw, he wasn't here when Alt (not its original name) was created. The rational for splitting these "OT" conversations from the Canon Forum took several months. The forum was created on 23 Oct 2005, had its name changed three days later, and had its first film thread a day after that! All along, proper content for Alt has been debated: F/EF mount lenses, analog technology, postprocessing techniques, and beyond. The general consensus appears to be "anything goes", but keep the stock Canon/Nikon rigs to a minimum. Nikon manual-focus gear like the FM3A or SP is fully embraced (digital be damned), and similarly for Canon breech mount F1, A-1, etc.
Rarely or never have I seen a need to police threads in this regard. Alt is still an oasis of toleration, right?
I'm not one of those people! I say there is plenty of room here for all the interests currently being offered. 
