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Archive 2010 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw
  
 
Trux
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p.1 #1 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Does anyone know how to keep the color in the raw image the same as the jpg thumbnail?

Am using CS3/Bridge and shooting in Raw. Before taking photos I adjust the camera (D300) via menus and expodisc,or auto white balance to get the image on the camera's LCD monitor to look exactly or very close to the actual scene.

The photos are then downloaded to Bridge and the thumbnails look very accurate in tone and color to the scenes as I remember them.

When opening a photo in camera raw the color and lighness will often shift; particularly noticable with sunsets or subtle shades of sky color. This is very frustrating considering the care taken to adjust the camera and settings to capture the scene as it is. Of course the photo can be fixed in camera raw and photoshop - but it takes time and effort to just get it to look like the thumbnail!

I want to shoot in raw for large landscape prints. How do you open into camera raw and have the image look like the thumbnail? Thanks. Trux

Jul 28, 2010 at 09:59 PM
theSuede
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p.1 #2 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


You don't, since the camera colour profiles used for creating the thumbnail and the ACR/LR profiles are not the same. You'd need to make a "NX colour copy" profile for the Adobe system to make that workflow happen.

Use Nikon's NX if you want "instant likeness".

And HOT TIP: The camera LCD display is so far off regarding colour that you wouldn't believe. You're basically entrusting your "colour management" to a display with the same colour accuracy as a medium quality smart-phone.

The fact that the Nikon jpgs (thumbnails and NX renderings) are not in any way to be likened to an "original" apparently passes most people by without any further notice. They're just as processed as any other software solution, they just happen to be the camera makers colour interpretation. When measured against a true reference (the Dupont ceramic tiles, or Gretag CC24, or QP-card 201) the in-camera renderings are in fact more off target (higher dE) than the Adobe Standard profile (which isn't brilliant either)...

Jul 28, 2010 at 10:16 PM
E-Vener
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p.1 #3 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


number 1: second party raw processors like Adobe Camera Raw can't see all of those camera settings you set on your camera mainly because Nikon and Canon et.al have decided to keep those settings in undocumented data forks. So the onl way you can get your raw images to look like the 8 bit highly compressed small color space JPEG you see on your camera's preview display is to use your camera maker's raw devoting software.

number 2: let go of what you see on your camera's preview. Think of it as a quick proof justto see that the iamge looks reasonably good and not make duplicating that look the end goal. Among other things you're raw file has a lot more information in it than the preview's processing will allow you to see. What you want learn is how to access that information.

number 3) There's no way around it: You have to learn how to use Adobe Camera Raw, or which ever raw processor you end up preferring to get the highest quality your camera is capable of producing.



Jul 28, 2010 at 10:24 PM
Trux
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p.1 #4 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Thank you very much to theSuede and E-Vener for your help!

Trux

Jul 29, 2010 at 02:09 AM
skibum5
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p.1 #5 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Trux wrote:
Does anyone know how to keep the color in the raw image the same as the jpg thumbnail?

Am using CS3/Bridge and shooting in Raw. Before taking photos I adjust the camera (D300) via menus and expodisc,or auto white balance to get the image on the camera's LCD monitor to look exactly or very close to the actual scene.

The photos are then downloaded to Bridge and the thumbnails look very accurate in tone and color to the scenes as I remember them.

When opening a photo in camera raw the color and lighness will often shift; particularly noticable with sunsets or subtle shades of sky color. This is very frustrating considering the care taken to adjust the camera and settings to capture the scene as it is. Of course the photo can be fixed in camera raw and photoshop - but it takes time and effort to just get it to look like the thumbnail!

I want to shoot in raw for large landscape prints. How do you open into camera raw and have the image look like the thumbnail? Thanks. Trux


use the maker's own RAW software set to the same picture style you used when you took it

even better might be to get something like a colorchecker chart or colorchecker passport and forget about the maker's or adobe's picture styles and make your own and you should get a least a bit truer to life than you ever did with the maker's pic styles and you can also set measured white point as a starting point too




Jul 29, 2010 at 05:36 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


One way to think about it is to set your camera setting to monotone. When you see it in your LCD, it will be viewed as monotone ... when you open the RAW file it is obviously NOT monotone ... i.e. jpg & RAW will NEVER match.

You basically have a scenario of one original capture (RAW) and two (actually more) different processing algorithms to interpret the RAW data ...

1) the camera's CPU based on your settings, or

2) the algorithms you apply to the RAW data on your PC via either (A) preset programs in your software of choice (which will not be the same as the camera OEM mfr) or (B) the algorithms you apply to the RAW data via manual utilization of your software.

Since neither you, nor any non-OEM, know the algorithm in your camera, they will never be equal ... I used to fight with this very thing, trying how to figure out how my RAW file will look using my LCD. I shoot RAW + jpg and only use my jpg at its smallest setting, knowing that I won't really be using it, but thinking of it as only a rough sketch of my RAW file.

E-Veener's point about 8 bit compressed color space is a highly valid point that shouldn't be dismissed. Fred has posted a nice, brief explanation Workflow Guidelines of the difference in color space and what that means to your files / images at the top left of this Forum page. It's a good, easy read that can help you get your mind even further away from trusting the 8 bit jpg in your LCD when you're going to be working with a 12 or 14 bit file.

One other recommendation that was given to me by FM'ers was to 'tone down' one of my jpg user adjusted LCD settings till it more closely resembles my RAW file if I'm really using the LCD as a RAW Preview ... rather than an OEM finished image preview ... i.e. make the LCD match your RAW, rather than make your RAW match your LCD.



Jul 29, 2010 at 12:38 PM
HerbChong
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p.1 #7 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


yuck. you use an uncalibrated monitor in changing lighting conditions to set your color?

Herb...

Trux wrote:
Before taking photos I adjust the camera (D300) via menus and expodisc,or auto white balance to get the image on the camera's LCD monitor to look exactly or very close to the actual scene.



Jul 29, 2010 at 03:05 PM
howardm4
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p.1 #8 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Rusty, you dont really need to shoot RAW & JPEG if you're just going to use it for 'guidance'. there is a JPEG already embedded inside the RAW that can be extracted.

Jul 29, 2010 at 03:49 PM
 



RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Howardm4 ... interesting to know.

jpg @ chimping / field review mostly ... also use them for 'contact sheet' / slideshow review as a starting point for deciding which RAW file I might want to work. Small jpg doesn't take up that much storage space on CF, then many get deleted after 'contact sheet' / slideshow review.

Also, the family sometimes wants stuff that I'd probably toss, so it's easy to give them a small jpg rather than work something from RAW that I have no real interest in.

Jul 29, 2010 at 03:59 PM
howardm4
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p.1 #10 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


yes, just a quick google of 'extract jpg from raw' will start you on the path

Jul 29, 2010 at 04:07 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #11 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


thanks ... will check it out.

Jul 29, 2010 at 04:26 PM
Trux
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p.1 #12 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Thanks to Skibum5, RustyBug, HerbChong, howardm4 - all of you who offered your expertice! Will be googleing 'extract jpg from raw'.

Since my original post, I've experimented with camera settings; taking pictures and comparing the image on the camera LCD with the image seen by my eyes. Admittedly the camera monitor was not calibrated. However,the human eyes viewing a scene are the ultimate judge of accuracy I would think. The jpgs are close, though not perfect, but more accurate than most raw files.

If we don't have an image that very closley represents what our eyes are seeing, we must then rely totally on memory. If the goal of photoshop enthusiasts is to create a pleasing image, well that's fine; but it probably is not the image the photographer saw. I know some would say: who cares; the image we created in photoshop is more beautiful. That is certainly a valid point. However some of us would like to take the viewer to that special place at sunrise or sunset and say this is what I saw; this is the color, the tone, and the mood at that moment - isn't it wonderful?!

Again, thanks to all of you who replied.

Trux

Aug 02, 2010 at 01:27 AM
HerbChong
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p.1 #13 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


how will this help you? nothing you own once you move the files to a computer have the response characteristics of your camera LCD. that means all your adjustments as to color and contrast are wasted. that is why people take pictures of color targets under controlled lighting conditions and calibrate against them when they need critical color control (like in catalog shooting). memory has nothing to do with it. you are making deductions based on a very flawed premise. if you can't make your RAWs look like your JPGs, it is your skill in using your software that is lacking.

Herb...

Trux wrote:
Since my original post, I've experimented with camera settings; taking pictures and comparing the image on the camera LCD with the image seen by my eyes. Admittedly the camera monitor was not calibrated. However,the human eyes viewing a scene are the ultimate judge of accuracy I would think. The jpgs are close, though not perfect, but more accurate than most raw files.



Aug 02, 2010 at 03:03 PM
E-Vener
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p.1 #14 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


However,the human eyes viewing a scene are the ultimate judge of accuracy I would think.

Accuracy? No. The visual cortex is very good at adaptive seeing, making something look like you think it should look like, and it can do it instantly, even if your eyes are going back and forth between what you see on the screen and what is in front of the camera.

There are a couple of problems with your premise:

Whether or not the preview screen is calibrated and profiled independently -- kind of a moot issue actually, the facts are that at the version the camera sends to the preview screen is a processed JPEG in either a very small (sRGB) or moderately large (Adobe RGB (1998) color space, depending on how you have set up your camera for JPEG shooting, while the real world very often contains colors that are outside those limited gamuts (or color palettes if you prefer).

We also don't know whether the camera makers use relative colorimetric or perceptual rendering when doing the internal raw to JPEG processing. Without going into a long diversion about that, the choose can have a profound affect on how those out of gamut colors are brought into ("clipped") the the color space you have set your camera up to use for JPEG processing and how they make those out of gamut colors relate to the colors that are in gamut, as well as changing the relationships of the colors that are i n a truly large gamut, like ProPhoto RGB, or Lightroom's native "Melissa RGB" variant of ProPhoto RGB once they are squeezed down into the smaller color spaces.



JPEGs are 8 bit per channel, Lightroom renders raw files as 16 bit per channels -- meaning 256 (0-255) steps vs over 16,000 steps. So with a JPEG subtle and sometimes not so subtle color shade differences are lost.

While healthy human eyesight can generally distinguish somewhere in the 8 to 9 bit per channel range of color and tone -- 256 to 512 steps -- depending on the illumination level, glare, etc. those extra bits are really important when a program is processing your photo.

What the camera is sending to the preview screen (and is that initial thumbnail view) is a highly compressed JPEG being sent to the preview -- similar tones and scholar shades are lumped together.

The very smart people who write a camera's firmware and spec a camera's LCD preview screen aren't so much interested in accurate color as in what is known with good reason as pleasing color. They want what you see to naturally look good, and make you feel good about your photos (and your choice of cameras). There isn't anything wrong with a pleasing color rendition, but it is different from "accurate" color and tonal renditions.

M y advice is to treat what you see on the camera's preview screen as a rough guide, a very good polaroid test if you like, of the photograph you actually made, but not as the end all and be all of your photo.

Whether or not you care about this is up to you. They are after all your photos and you have the unassailable right to make them look any way you want them to. Unless you are unhappy with the way they look, no one can tell you are wrong. I just wanted to share with you some insight into what is going on and to clear up your misconception.
best wishes,

Ellis



Aug 02, 2010 at 03:49 PM
HerbChong
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p.1 #15 · Color management - color shift from jpg to raw


Ellis, he is unhappy because the RAW images still don't look the way he sees them on the camera LCD after all his JPG adjustments. as you and i know, there are a myriad of reasons not limited to RAW conversion skill and expectation.

Herb...

E-Vener wrote:
Whether or not you care about this is up to you. They are after all your photos and you have the unassailable right to make them look any way you want them to. Unless you are unhappy with the way they look, no one can tell you are wrong. I just wanted to share with you some insight into what is going on and to clear up your misconception.



Aug 02, 2010 at 04:05 PM




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