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carstenw
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p.627 #1 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

There is also a lot more information in the shadows in the M9 shot than in the film shot, so even without bringing up the shadows in post, a shot with equalized exposure for the highlights would be telling.

Jan 24, 2013 at 04:33 PM

zhangyue
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p.627 #2 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

douglasf13 wrote:
ken.vs.ryu wrote:

nice and simple comparison. thanks.

The problem with this comparison is that the digital version has the highlights blown out. A comparison where the highlights weren't blown out, and the shadows were brought up in post, would be a more telling comparison. That's especially true with an "ISO-less" camera like the M9.

Yes, the film's DR mostly happen at right of histogram. The beauty of digital is it can redistribute histogram as your wish to realize more usable DR in real life without sacrifice too much. film can have more DR that if you use this character of film to exposure to the right. but color information is not linear, so it is very hard to bring down mid-tone to keep color intact. especially with 35mm film, there is no enough pixel (6M?)

Most people choose film for its look! I will recheck VCSO, Joe recommended last time. It might be a good idea to have the look but save the hassle.

Jan 24, 2013 at 04:40 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.627 #3 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

M9 - ZM 50/2 by edward karaa, on Flickr

Jan 24, 2013 at 05:38 PM

rscheffler
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p.627 #4 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Regarding colors, I suspect Adobe is going for a fairly general set of pleasing 'memory colors,' which to me would explain the vivid blues and greens. And there is a certain logic in them trying for consistency across all profiles. It's great for shooting different camera models or makes at the same time when aiming for some consistency in post.

Edward, that's an interesting comment on skin tone preference. I think you've been acclimatized to Asian color preferences.

As I've mentioned before, it was quite apparent to me while browsing window displays of Taiwanese wedding photography studios, as well as seeing friends' wedding albums - everyone has very pink complexions.

It's also interesting to see the Xrite vs. embedded profile differences. It's very slight, but there seem to be differences in skin tone interpretation, with the embedded being a bit more pink.

The M9 can produce good skin tone in low light conditions. It's primarily a factor of light quality, rather than intensity. Having shot a fair number of corporate type events with the camera along with my Canons, under decent fluorescent lighting I can get good available light results. I think this one is a pretty reasonable example. Though not from a corporate shoot, it was a compact fluorescent light source:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Incandescent lighting seems to pose a greater issue because of its strong red shift which underexposes the blue channel. This is usually where I notice quite strong color splotchiness when trying for a more neutral WB quality. Has anyone experimented with shooting 80A or 80B blue color correction filters? It would seem to be the solution, though at a roughly two-stops light loss.

Jan 24, 2013 at 06:34 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.627 #5 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

rscheffler wrote:

Edward, that's an interesting comment on skin tone preference. I think you've been acclimatized to Asian color preferences.

I think so too

Jan 24, 2013 at 07:15 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.627 #6 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Ron, great shot! Love the dog sneaking into the shot.

Looks like you got two portraits for the price of one.

Jan 24, 2013 at 07:29 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.627 #7 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Great stuff everyone.

Street shooters thought you might like to see this if you haven't.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/01/more-than-photography-short-documentary-about-two-street-photographers/?utm_source=20130124en&utm_medium=E-Mail

Jan 24, 2013 at 07:44 PM

joe88
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p.627 #8 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Thanks Michael, Edward.

Michael, really excellent shots with both your ZM21 and sigh.. 35CronV1! Do you have some more sample shots of the 35Cron at f/2?

Edward, that ZM50 shot looks exactly like slide film. Nice shot! I don't think you need change too much with your pp workflow. The color shots you posted are all beautifully rendered, contrasty and I don't think you need to do much other than correct for skin tones, unless its purely an exercise to experiment? Have you tried Capture One? Charles and others seem to have good experiences with Capture One in the past. Nothing wrong with the colors looking like chromes or Velvia, I love film and I bet many others as well

douglasf13 wrote:
The problem with this comparison is that the digital version has the highlights blown out. A comparison where the highlights weren't blown out, and the shadows were brought up in post, would be a more telling comparison. That's especially true with an "ISO-less" camera like the M9.

Yours and Carsten's explanation is valid and as long as we are deliberate with shooting and checking exposure on the histogram or with a handheld meter, we can always pull up the shadows in digital and stretch the dynamic range. I don't disagree. But still the abrupt cut off of highlight detail in digital is not "natural" per se, and that is not how our eyes perceive brightness or highlight roll off. Oftentimes, a picture is not "ruined" if has pure black shadow details but it is almost always ruined if there are abrupt blown highlights. I am not defending one medium over the other, I definitely prefer digital for the convenience and resolution nowadays. With Moore's law and computing power, maybe in the near future, with so much Dynamic range available on the pixel level, blown highlights could be "programmed" into a camera sensor software, probably adjusting the gain on the sensor's amplication so that it tails off to logarithmic scale rather than a linear one. Else give us a metering mode that is intelligent enough to detect level 255 on the pixel and automatically adjust exposure to not exceed say 1-3% of the pixels at 255 and bring down the exposure automatically? That would definitely make my life easier.

zhangyue wrote:
Most people choose film for its look! I will recheck VCSO, Joe recommended last time. It might be a good idea to have the look but save the hassle.

VSCO presets tweaks the toning sliders on LR4 and PS , it won't help with blown highlights

I actually get better results with VSCO on Canon/Nikon/Sony files rather than the M9 files. With M9, results varies but I do like VCSO's black & white emulation and some of the independent color toning tools. I asked VSCO if they would come up with a profile for Leica M9 and they didn't really answer but said it was in the pipeline. Maybe they haven't figured a way out to tame the M9 colors.

----
A few more Ektar 100 on M6 TTL.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Jan 24, 2013 at 07:53 PM

WavecrestPhoto
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p.627 #9 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

M8 versus M9 Color: As a new Leica shooter (finally gotr my first M8!) I just wanted to ask you veterans if you could comment on the differences between M8 and M9 in terms of color out of the camera. I have found the M8 color to be fairly good thus far, I just wondered if the M9 is dramatially better with regard to AWB performance. Any input much appreciated!

Jan 24, 2013 at 07:56 PM

carstenw
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p.627 #10 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Joe, I agree with you in that the "designed" colours of film look nicer much of the time, and highlights have a nicer rolloff on film than on digital, but not exposing digital for highlights and then comparing highlights isn't an example of this

Jan 24, 2013 at 08:07 PM

joe88
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p.627 #11 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

carstenw wrote:
Joe, I agree with you in that the "designed" colours of film look nicer much of the time, and highlights have a nicer rolloff on film than on digital, but not exposing digital for highlights and then comparing highlights isn't an example of this

I agree and you are absolutely right

Jan 24, 2013 at 08:19 PM

zhangyue
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p.627 #12 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Don't want over react this color thing.it is very personal. It could be just my personal preference. During pp, I feel leica seems give me more freedom than D700. And the good thing of it it's output really depend on your preference. Other than Canikon's similar output. Leica camera is more like artist tool and Canikon more like the tool get job done quickly and nicely.

Joe, they don't support leica? I seems remember they have leica listed. Another question is how many licsens I can get for my multiple computer?
Do they have profile created for each film simulation or just a bunch of slider tweak?

Joe I will add some WO shot lately. They are most portrait. I can tell you: they are decent sharp but bokeh is not as good as your RX1 for sure

if that is what you want know

I enjoy your film shots. More please.
Edward, I agree with your opinion about all this color thing, it is very personal, no right or no wrong. Especially for you guys from film day, my first serious camera is D700, it give me some expectation preference I had. I slowly love M more and more since then.
Ron, you can bring any photo as example of good skin tone. You are expert for this color tweak thing

And I feel it require a lots of experience to do so.

From iPhone at airplane 10000m at air

Edited on Jan 24, 2013 at 08:25 PM · View previous versions

Jan 24, 2013 at 08:20 PM

Bijltje
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p.627 #13 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

WavecrestPhoto wrote:
M8 versus M9 Color: As a new Leica shooter (finally gotr my first M8!) I just wanted to ask you veterans if you could comment on the differences between M8 and M9 in terms of color out of the camera. I have found the M8 color to be fairly good thus far, I just wondered if the M9 is dramatially better with regard to AWB performance. Any input much appreciated!

I'm not an expert on colors. But I always loved my M8 for its colors out of the camera. What I have heard leica (kodak) really tried to put as much "kodachrome" into the M8's output.

To me the M9 has less of this look. The M9's colors seem more "normal" or standard to me than those of the M8. I personally like the M8's better.
However, I haven't used my M9 that much since I was graduating since I got it. So I still have to use it on a big trip. Maybe after that I change my mind.

To me now an M8 with 28 cron still is by far the best combo I have ever used.

Have fun with it!

Jan 24, 2013 at 08:24 PM

joe88
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p.627 #14 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

zhangyue wrote:
Joe, they don't support leica? I seems remember they have leica listed. Another question is how many licsens I can get for my multiple computer?
Do they have profile created for each film simulation or just a bunch of slider tweak?

Joe I will add some WO shot lately. They are most portrait. I can tell you: they are decent sharp but bokeh is not as good as your RX1 for sure

if that is what you want know

From iPhone at airplane 10000m at air

They have 2 packs with different film emulations but all are C41 color or B&W. Does not have any slide film emulation Each pack has various films and on each film, there are 4 settings, gentle (-1), normal, +1 where is looks like pushed film with shadows lifted, +2 with more extreme grain and even more shadows lifted or toned. The film look from what I can see on the LR sliders has shadows toned green or magenta and lifted from 0 to +10 or more to simulate film.

VSCO includes a general profile which works for all cameras but they also provide 2 profiles specifically for Canon and Nikon. So Leica (and other cameras) are supported but not as precise as the Nikon and Canon presets. So sometimes you still have to tweak a few settings. So on each film simulation, almost all of the tools on the develop module such as color sliders, tone curves and and split toning are used to achieve the "film" look.

I'll try and post some examples when I have some time. One license is limited to 2 computers I think. I have it on my Macbook and Windows desktop at home.

Looking forward to your 35CronV1 wide open shots

Jan 24, 2013 at 09:19 PM

rscheffler
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p.627 #15 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Thanks Wayne!

rscheffler wrote:

Edward, that's an interesting comment on skin tone preference. I think you've been acclimatized to Asian color preferences.

edwardkaraa wrote:
I think so too

In fact, the adobe profile makes the complexion of my southeast Asian subjects a bit greenish/yellow, not very flattering. When I add a bit of magenta, it affects other colors. However, people of northern European descent tend to have reddish/pinkish skins, so I do understand how the adobe profile would be more flattering in their case, while the embedded profile makes their complexion overly reddish.

Have you tried tweaking the individual color hue settings? For example, if skin tone is too yellow, pull the orange and yellow hue sliders a bit to the left. Reducing yellow saturation might also help.

The M9's colors remind me a lot of the original Canon 1D. That was also a CCD sensor camera. Not sure how much of a factor that is... It was my first digital camera and I remember not liking how it rendered skin tones. Very splotchy looking at times. Ruddy complexions were especially bad. It was a real shock coming from shooting weddings on C41 emulsions where skin tone was always perfect looking. My guess is the more recent digital cameras have something happening post-capture to improve skin tone rendering.

Jan 25, 2013 at 07:36 AM

edwin_sn
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p.627 #16 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

interesting discussion here

Jan 25, 2013 at 08:02 AM

edwin_sn
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p.627 #17 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Jan 25, 2013 at 08:04 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.627 #18 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Joe, thank you very much for the encouragement!

rscheffler wrote:

Have you tried tweaking the individual color hue settings? For example, if skin tone is too yellow, pull the orange and yellow hue sliders a bit to the left. Reducing yellow saturation might also help.

The M9's colors remind me a lot of the original Canon 1D. That was also a CCD sensor camera. Not sure how much of a factor that is... It was my first digital camera and I remember not liking how it rendered skin tones. Very splotchy looking at times. Ruddy complexions were especially bad. It was a real shock coming from shooting weddings on C41 emulsions where skin tone was always perfect looking. My guess is the more recent digital cameras have something happening post-capture to improve skin tone rendering.

Ron, that's a very interesting point you make about the 1Ds color. I had one myself, and I think it had the most magical color of any DSLR I have used (maybe the A900 was nicer but with similar drawbacks).

I haven't tried to tweak the color channels, actually this is something I prefer to avoid altogether, because once I start messing with that I get even more indecisive. I try to keep my PP to a very strict minimum: WB, exposure, contrast. Hence I want to find the best profile and stick with it.

Jan 25, 2013 at 09:50 AM

edwardkaraa
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p.627 #19 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

Btw, Joe, fantastic colors from the Ektar.

And Edwin, absolutely superb shots. Love them.

Jan 25, 2013 at 09:54 AM

carstenw
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p.627 #20 · Leica M8/M9/X1 Picture Thread

edwardkaraa wrote:
rscheffler wrote:
The M9's colors remind me a lot of the original Canon 1D.

Ron, that's a very interesting point you make about the 1Ds color.

Are you talking about the same Camera? Ron said 1D and you said 1Ds...

Jan 25, 2013 at 10:18 AM

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