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Archive 2010 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?
  
 
Cableaddict
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p.1 #1 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


I need a little help.

I'm currently modifying a Mamiya 21/4. The rear flange had to be filed off. in order to get close to infinity focus. I have done that, and am trying to determine if I've gone too far.

I know of a few methods for testing infinity focus, but they are not exact. I'm looking for a ballpark number: With the focus ring full-out, on a 21mm at f/4, at what distance should things in the center be within the COF?

For instance: Currently, with the centered-subject at 30' I can still focus past it, just a little. - maybe 3-5mm on the focus ring.

Does this sound about right, or should I start more careful testing?
------------

Also - Does anyone know how the helical-stop adjustment works on mamiya SX lenses? (or if there even is one?) This lens is clean, so I'd rather not open it up simply to explore.

-thanks.


Mar 16, 2010 at 08:35 AM
staticInc
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p.1 #2 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


I don't know whether I have understood correctly - but if you have filed off too much of the flange, the use of spacers might help to re-achieve the correct flange to sensor distance.
Being able to focus past infinity with a prime lens usually means that one has a flange to sensor/film distance too short.
Maybe you can start with cutting paper discs/spacers to test for the appropriate distance of flange to lens.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,
si


Mar 16, 2010 at 08:47 AM
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p.1 #3 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


Thanks, but I know how to fix the problem, if it exists.

I'm looking for some benchmarks.


Mar 16, 2010 at 08:55 AM
staticInc
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p.1 #4 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


Maybe the online depth of field calculator helps to figure out the distance where COF should begin.

Mar 16, 2010 at 09:19 AM
Cableaddict
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p.1 #5 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


Great idea!

According to that, if I'm reading correctly, 21mm @ f/4 on a FF camera should have acceptable DOF from 6.05' to infinity, with the hyperfocal distance at 12.1'

That's a lot closer than I expected.

-But I'm not sure how this relates to my focus ring. Does this mean that, with the ring turned fully, the point of maximum sharpness should be at 12.1' ? (with the rest being within acceptable limits)

-Or am I SUPPOSED to be able to focus further away, so that distant objects are even sharper, at the expense of closer objects that would have looked OK had I focused at the hyperfocal distance.

I thought I understood this, but the more I think about it, the more confused I get.


Mar 16, 2010 at 09:35 AM
Cableaddict
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p.1 #6 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


I'm also thinking, why not be able to go "past infinity" a little, if the distance scale allows it?

I've read that some lenses can purposely focus past infinity to allow for thermal expansion. As long as the distance scale accurately shows the "infinity" mark, then why not? You could also use this creatively, to get near objects more OOF, while still having the horizon within acceptable focus limits.
----------

Sadly, this lens I'm working on now has a distance scale that stops exactly at infinity.

So ......


Mar 16, 2010 at 09:54 AM
staticInc
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p.1 #7 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


Cableaddict wrote:
-But I'm not sure how this relates to my focus ring. Does this mean that, with the ring turned fully, the point of maximum sharpness should be at 12.1' ? (with the rest being within acceptable limits)

-Or am I SUPPOSED to be able to focus further away, so that distant objects are even sharper, at the expense of closer objects that would have looked OK had I focused at the hyperfocal distance.

I thought I understood this, but the more I think about it, the more confused I get.
[...]
I'm also thinking, why not be able to go "past infinity" a little, if the distance scale allows it?

I've read that some lenses can purposely focus past infinity to allow for thermal expansion. As long as the distance scale accurately shows the "infinity" mark, then why not? You could also use this creatively, to get near objects more OOF, while still having the horizon within acceptable focus limits.
----------

Sadly, this lens I'm working on now has a distance scale that stops exactly at infinity.

So ......


Don't worry.
Well, I think most of what you are wondering about is a rather physical, better theoretical problem. There are lots of people discussing the notion of hyperfocal distance and I'm not really an optical expert, but from what I know about hyperfocal distance, it means that when you have your lens's focal length set to 12.1', everything behind your point of focus is in acceptable "sharpness" (defined by size of the point of confusion) as well as everything from 6' towards your point of focus (focus distance).
Still, perfect sharpness of subjects in greater distance, e.g. a mile away, are in perfect focus (meaning smallest size of the circle of confusion) only, when the lens is set to infinity with an appropriate infinity adjustment. And this is usually the purpose of the focus ring stop. It prevents users from focusing past infinity, since optimal sharpness is provided already. The more you focus past infinity, the farther away the "area" of sharpness moves away.
The effect of temperature deviations on lenses this wide is an issue I wouldn't take care of. There is plenty depth of field at f/4, so the effect will be absolutely insignificant, if existent at all.

Since "acceptable" sharpness depends on the size of the point of confusion, you could adjust your lens by means of a borrowed Crop-DSLR with high resolution. They usually are much more demanding with regard to absolute resolution thus requiring a smaller circle of confusion to achieve acceptable sharpness. So what you see as sharp in the images taken with a crop DSLR will eventually be sharp with your 5DII for sure.

Hope this helps.
si


Mar 16, 2010 at 03:12 PM
 



Cableaddict
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p.1 #8 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


That's a very good idea about a borrowed crop-camera, esp if it has live view.

If only I knew someone that had one....


Mar 17, 2010 at 07:55 AM
philip_pj
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p.1 #9 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


I'd want to be able to focus to infinity, no matter what. If it goes a little further, fine, back off a bit on the ring setting, which you can get used to quite easily. You can test a range of settings once you can get the basic setup right.

I would not do it by numbers, but by a set of focus-bracketed images of your preferred material, a range of distances would help get an overall feel for what is best and how to use it.

Hyperfocal does not work IMO. Always wrong, and with a lot of near-infinity parts of the composition potentially visible with a 21mm, not a good look, not satisfying.

Harold Merklinger does a fine analysis of the subject. I had the same experience as he did using hyperfocal, but after reading his work the penny dropped - hyperfocal method truly sucks, despite having an intrinsic appeal to mathematically oriented people, some of whom entered the circle of confusion and never got back out.

Read up here: http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/download.html

Other methods, and a lot of this is very composition-dependent, is to focus on the main subject, find near/far points and use an aperture that brings them both into good enough focus, or simply focus at, or very near, infinity, since near objects have larger dimension in the image and can stand much more slight de-focus than distant (small in the image) elements.


Mar 17, 2010 at 11:34 AM
philip_pj
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p.1 #10 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


In the interest of balance, here is a reasonably interesting thread on the subject with some different views on hyperfocal: http://www.dphoto.us/forum/showthread.php?t=192



Mar 17, 2010 at 11:43 AM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #11 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


Cableaddict wrote:
I'm looking for a ballpark number: With the focus ring full-out, on a 21mm at f/4, at what distance should things in the center be within the COF?


5 meters (+/- about 30 cm).



Mar 17, 2010 at 05:54 PM
siriusdogstar
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p.1 #12 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


With focus ring set on infinity mark STARTRAILS should be sharp lines.

re: hyperfocal, +1 staticInc reply.


Mar 19, 2010 at 02:03 AM
philber
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p.1 #13 · 21mm hyperfocal distance?


According to Photocalc, an iPhone application, with your parameters (FF, 21mm, f:4.0, object at 30'), the near limit is 8'7", the far limit is infinity, thus the DOF is infinite, and the hyperfocal distance is 12'1". If your subect distance is 12'1", then the near limit is 6', and the far distance infinity.
Hope this helps.


Mar 19, 2010 at 10:14 AM
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