what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

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Archive 2009 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

ZWDB08
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p.1 #1 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

I was wondering , for shooting wild life , birds etc … and I want to have a sharp detailed image , where all the birds fine details are showing and they are crisp … is this in the lens , camera body , both or software to achieve this ?

I currently shoot with a canon 20d –and a 200-400 tamron 5.6 film lens , and a 22-75mm 2.8 tamron and a Tokina 70-200 2.8 atx , and I am disappointed in my picture results … I use a tri pod and mono pod , and photoshop 6.0 , use noise ware pro noise reduction and still get shots that look slightly soft …I mean don’t get me wrong they look ok but they lack that pop in the details etc ,that I see in so many pictures … and most of them seem slightly underexposed or dark even when I have the exposure set as the meter calls for and try to use evaluative metering …evaulating the whole scene .

If I want truly awesome wall hanger photos is it in the glass, ? or what ?
Am I asking to much from the 20d …even my landscape shots come back to dark , and lack crisp fine details …like featherig etc or the eyes are dull ..
I don’t have a ton of money so I need to spend it wisely … I was thinking of investing in at least one or two good lens … I was looking at a 400 5.6 L , or a 100-500 tamron (I think I have that right ) … or is there something better ? I liked the extra 100 mm on the tamron , but does that glass have the quality to produce stunning bird shots ?
I also was thinking of selling everything I have and switching to Nikon if it is a better set up for wild life / bird shooting …most of the papers here I know shoot Nikon , and claim they have very little editing to do … their thoughts were I needed a better body ,
Anyhow any help would be deeply appreciated …
Pictures of various types that I have shot lately can be seen on my shutterfly site ,most have been edited
http://osakissilverstreakssportspicture.shutterfly.com/

Thanks again you guys at Miranda are awesome
Bill B

Nov 09, 2009 at 05:26 PM

jeffdjohnston
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p.1 #2 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Bill,

Having gone through the same process, I understand your frustration. Longer glass will help in some instances, but not as many as you might think. Most of the wildlife issues I've encountered had to due with proximity, and an additional 100mm of reach wouldn't solve the problem.

The first time I went to Yellowstone to photograph elk, I used a 300mm with a 1.4x on a film camera and got the same frame filling shots as the guys with the 600mm lenses. It wasn't because I was an expert in my craft. It was the result of knowing where and when the animals would be available and investing in a $75 pair of waders to get across the shallow streams to get closer.

You have to learn where and when to go someplace to get close enough to get good work. With landscapes, the "when" can become very important for sunrise/sunset location, flowers in bloom, water levels for waterfalls, etc.

My recommendation would be to buy the best glass you can afford as long as it provides enough versatility to accomplish the different subjects you want to cover.

Example: EOS 400mm F5.6 vs EOS 300mm F4.

The 400 is normally sharp and fast, but the 300mm can be used with a 1.4X to achieve the same reach, can be purchased in an IS version, and has a minimum focusing distance short enough to photograph flowers, bugs and reptiles. That's why I kept my 300mm F4 and sold the 400mm F5.6.

There were people around with longer glass, pro bodies and massive tripods, but I'm happy with the bald eagle photographs I took with a 20D and a 100-400 IS using a shoulder stock shown here:

http://jdjohnston1960.smugmug.com/Wildlife/Feathers/4450181_P44Ny

Best of Luck,

Jeff Johnston

Nov 09, 2009 at 08:14 PM

ZWDB08
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p.1 #3 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Whoa Jeff
you shot those amazing eagle shots with a 100-400 IS -CANON L ? using a shoulder stock ? is that like a bush hawk ?
man these are amazing shots ... i cannot come close with my 200-400 old tamron ,and i go to reedslanding every year which has thousands of eagles and walk all over and even gotten quite close and still dont get these results...not sure what i am doing wrong ..it must be the glass ? your shots are awesome ... how much editing did you have to do and does the software also matter in creating a truly awesome shot ?
man Jeff these are great .
i am debating between the 300 f4.0 or the 400 5.6 or 100-400 5.6 ?

was the IS important for these shots ? i use a monopod mostly ...i have been told IS is important them some say no ... i know many people that shoot sports and use IS instead of fast glass to keep from getting soft images and it seems to work ...

anyhow now i am excited i can keep my 20d a little bit longer and get better glass... Thanks Bill B

Nov 09, 2009 at 08:29 PM

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p.1 #4 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Bill, I have not seen one shred of evidence that Nikon equipment is any sharper than Canon, or vice-versa.

I usually only carry one lens around and shoot mostly handheld. For me, the 100-400 is simply the most versatile lens for wildlife. All shots below are with the 100-400. #1 is with the 20D, 1/350s, f/8.0, ISO1600, at 400mm

First shot is full-frame, no cropping.

2012 © Imagemaster

Edited on Nov 09, 2009 at 08:59 PM · View previous versions

Nov 09, 2009 at 08:57 PM

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p.1 #5 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

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Nov 09, 2009 at 08:58 PM

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p.1 #6 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

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Nov 09, 2009 at 08:59 PM

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p.1 #7 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Hi Bill,

By no means am I an expert, however based on my own personal experience, the glass is probably the most important for what you are trying to achieve.
There are some folks here at the forum who can create the most amazing images with very modest equipment. Even one fellow FM'er who produces better pictures with a point & shoot than I can with my thousands in gear.

On a limited "birding" budget, I would say your 20D is more than capable of producing the fine quality, detailed images you are looking for. Of course, as you move up 30D, 40D, 50D, the features get better ,megapixels get higher and usually the overall performance of the camera body improves. My personal favorites for birding.........
20D , 40D , 1D MARK II, and now the 7D. You can find exceptional deals at the Buy/Sell forum on all of these.

The lenses I would choose from would be the Canon 400 5.6L (I own), or the Canon 100-400L IS. Depends on your needs and / or preference. There are some other very capable third party lenses in the Sigma lineup and others, however I have personally only used Canon.

The 400 5.6L is a very fast focusing sharp lens. Perfect, if not one of the best lenses for birds in flight.
($900 - $950 used here at the Buy/Sell Forum)

The 100-400L of course is more versatile, just about as sharp, and has IS which can come in handy.
($1200 - $1400 used at the Buy/Sell Forum)

Once again, assuming you have a general knowledge of your camera settings , ISO , fstops, etc., I think the next best thing after acquiring new glass is simple............Practice. Learn your lens. Practice your technique. Get an idea what your limitations are and don't expect more from your equipment than it can produce. I've owned the 500L , the 600L, and currently the 400 5.6 L, and all are very different. In most instances, don't expect 600L results on a 400 5.6L budget. Having said that, the 400 is nothing to sneeze at.

A couple other things you should consider is always shoot in RAW, and invest in a good post -processing software. Adobe Photoshop CS4 is what I'm currently using, however there are many others out there. Canon's DPP software is free, comes with the camera, I just never really understood it personally.

Below I have posted some sample images from the 400 5.6L , 500L , and 600L just to give you an idea how they stack up against each other. All have been cropped, resized and USM applied. These are not meant for like scientific purposes, just a visual guide from an average amateur.

Jason-

1. 20D / 400 5.6 L
2. 20D / 500L / 1.4 TC
3. 40D / 600L

2012 © elbmuh

Canon EOS 20D 400 mm f/5.6 1/500 sec 400 ISO 0.0 EV

2012 © elbmuh

Canon EOS 20D 700 mm f/8.0 1/2000 sec 400 ISO 0.0 EV

2012 © elbmuh

Canon EOS 40D 600 mm f/7.1 1/1600 sec 400 ISO -0.3 EV

Nov 09, 2009 at 08:59 PM

jeffdjohnston
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p.1 #8 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Bill,

The only bald eagle shot on that page not taken with the 100-400 was the portrait against the black background (my avatar) which was shot off a monopod with a 500mm Nikkor on film. I used a Bush Hawk for all of the others.

Glass is very important. That being said, so is shutter speed. All the flight shots were taken with shutter speeds higher than 1000th of a second to eliminate subject motion softness. In order to get the shutter speeds higher, I used ISO 400 or greater some times. As you increase the ISO, you also increase noise, so software becomes important. They were processed in Photoshop 7.0 for color, cropping and sharpness and then Neat Image for noise reduction.

I don't normally use image stabilization for BIF's. I try to use the shutter speed to freeze the subject. I do use it in low light or long reach situations with longer lenses and teleconverters to "stabilize" any equipment shake.

The "dull eyes" you speak of is often overcome by the use of underexposed fill-flash.

My lens selection is normally:

100-400 "walking around", large mammals, birds in flight - versatile, moderately sharp
300/4 with or without 1.4x for BIF, bugs, flowers etc - less versatile, sharper
500/4 predators, songbirds, anything from vehicle- least versatile, sharpest

As for cameras, 40D's can be had here used for just north of $600, and if your 20D breaks, you might check out Canon's "loyalty program" for a trade in on a refurbed 50D for $629.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

My complements to Tony and Jason for their fine work!

Edited on Nov 10, 2009 at 12:47 AM · View previous versions

Nov 09, 2009 at 09:28 PM

Duane N
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p.1 #9 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

I chose my camera body on frames per second...the higher the better especially if you're shooting a lot of bird in flight images. I started out with the 350D, upgraded to the 40D (after using a borrowed 30D for a month or so) and now use the 50D as my main camera body.

My main lens of choice is the 400mm f/5.6L but I recently purchased the 500mm f/4L. For me IS wasn't important because I shoot using a tripod 99% of the time. That's a decision you'll have to make. I also used the Canon 1.4II extender on the 400mm with good results in decent light....I taped the pins off to maintain auto focus.

One thing I will say is don't skimp on the lens whichever you choose.

Some examples....

Canon 350D using a 400mm f/5.6L lens.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Canon 40D using a 400mm f/5.6L lens.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Canon 50D using the 500mm f/4L lens.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Canon 50D using the 400mm f/5.6L lens along with the Canon 1.4II extender

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Nov 09, 2009 at 09:45 PM

Karl Witt
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p.1 #10 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Hi Bill

As well may be proven here by the results, the 20D is capable of excellent results! If you are in question of your results with it then a trip to Canon for evaluation may be beneficial as there may be a minor problem with the body, not your your glass or your PP or technique

If you shoot a Canon 400 prime or a 100-400 and don't get the results you are expecting then it is your body or your technique or your PP work. Much of the sharpness and 'pop' you see is from some careful and experienced post processors, my old images keep looking better as my PP skills improve

Perhaps you may have another Canon shooter in your area that can help evaluate your situation. I have owned an Xti, 40D and 50D, all my images look great from each and could easily backtrack to them and continue to shoot happily. Features and added cropping abilities of the 50d are nice but your 20D is fine performer and I think I may even end up with one as a second body!

Concentrate on the right lens and technique, share some of your results so we can help analyze the results, it may be possible for you to share a file with one of us and have it processed to see the potential or find the problem

Hope this was helpful, PM me if I can help more!
Karl

Nov 09, 2009 at 09:57 PM

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p.1 #11 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Duane: How much of a difference in performance (autofocus and IQ) is there with the 400 5.6 when used with the 1.4 extender?

Nov 09, 2009 at 10:14 PM

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p.1 #12 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Much has been said about equipment here and I agree with most of it. I have a 20 D and it certainly is capable of getting great images. My money would go towards glass. I have the 100-400 and it is certainly able to capture great images as well. To me, one of the big factors is the amount and quality of the light. I also have some of the biggest and best equipment availableec including 1dmk 2, mk3 1ds mk 2. Glass includes 400 2.8 70-700 2.8. The point being lots of money invested. Even so,I still struggle to accomplish what you are looking for and it is not easy. Many elements must be present in order to get a great image. Subject, background, good technique, and above all good light. If you look at most of the great images posted here, one thing makes them all stand out, the light. This requires spending time in the field and timing your shooting to be there during the best light. You can indeed get some nice images without it, but to get the most out of your equipment, good light is an essential element. Bruce

Nov 09, 2009 at 10:46 PM

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p.1 #13 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

I don't have anything else to add - there lots of good suggestions/advices here already. Wow FM is great.

Nov 09, 2009 at 10:47 PM

Duane N
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p.1 #14 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

doubleo6point9 wrote:
Duane: How much of a difference in performance (autofocus and IQ) is there with the 400 5.6 when used with the 1.4 extender?
IQ does suffer slightly. I like my images "crisp" (mainly for glossy prints because I oversharpen them for prints and my web images are just resized so they tend to look oversharened) and I'm happy with the IQ using the extender.

As far as autofocus....I don't use it for in-flights...the lens doesn't "snap" to focus like it does without it but for perched subjects I will use it without doubting how the images will turn out. In lower light it does tend to hunt for focus but once there's enough light it focuses fine.

Nov 09, 2009 at 11:04 PM

Willamette
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p.1 #15 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

A new lens is where I would start and the Canon 400L f5.6 is a great way to go. It's going to have the image quality you desire, decent reach, it will focus quickly, is lightweight, inexpensive, and ideal for BIF. It also takes a 1.4X converter well for static subjects but will affect focus speed, especially in poor lighting.

With any of the slower lenses support is an important consideration and I too like the bushhawk for BIF shooting as it gives the most flexibility in movement and provides reasonable stability if you can keep shutter speeds above 1/250 sec. Even with the bushhawk I still use brace techniques if they are available, such as trees, broken branches, fence posts, handrails, walls, vehicle door/window frame, etc. In lower lighting the tripod is a must as well as good long-lens technique, including use of a remote shutter release (or self-timer), mirror lockup, etc.

Your camera body is a little dated, but is certainly capable. I'd definitely work towards the lens upgrade first.

Strategy will be the greater payoff with any bird (any animal). Know your subject, and where to find them. Then learn their behavior and often a pattern will emerge; favorite roosting spots/perches, flight patterns, tolerance of humans and other species. Also, how these things change throughout the year/seasons. Use of a blind may help, but not always.

Nov 09, 2009 at 11:09 PM

Cincy Bruce
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p.1 #16 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Thang wrote:
I don't have anything else to add - there lots of good suggestions/advices here already. Wow FM is great.

+1
I wish I had the chance to spend 1 day with these guys. Until then, I will practice....practice....and practice more.

Bruce

Nov 09, 2009 at 11:15 PM

doubleo6point9
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p.1 #17 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Duane N wrote:
doubleo6point9 wrote:
Duane: How much of a difference in performance (autofocus and IQ) is there with the 400 5.6 when used with the 1.4 extender?
IQ does suffer slightly. I like my images "crisp" (mainly for glossy prints because I oversharpen them for prints and my web images are just resized so they tend to look oversharened) and I'm happy with the IQ using the extender.

As far as autofocus....I don't use it for in-flights...the lens doesn't "snap" to focus like it does without it but for perched subjects I will use it without doubting how the images will turn out. In lower light it does tend to hunt for focus but once there's enough light it focuses fine.

Thanks for the info Duane. I was looking at the same setup but I had thought about going with either the 100-400 or possibly the sigma 150-500 but just wanted some input on the tc.

Nov 09, 2009 at 11:29 PM

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p.1 #18 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Just scanned the above--but didn't see much about tripods. If you're shooting long glass, get a tripod--your percentage of keepers will go way up, as will your percentage of 'wow' shots.

And, yep, glass is REALLY important. I sure wouldn't spend the dough I do on it if it wasn't. I've gone through a lot of bodies, but my long teles are forever (well, make that for 'until Canon comes out with something better'. (I'm dreaming of Das Uber Hyper Dimensional Perfect Electo-Light lens. It will have 5 stops of image stabilization, weigh under a pound, and be infinately variable through all focal lengths. And I get it for Christmas.)

Nov 10, 2009 at 01:10 AM

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p.1 #19 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

Thanks guys ... the feed back is very good .. i think part of my problem is a shoot what ever is available ...for example i dont wait for the perfect day ...mostly i am driving around as a drive a lot at work , and i see birds, wild life etc , and generally i just try to grab the shot as i see them..Like eagles i dont see them much , so when i do i try to react fast and catch what i can , and usually 9 times out of 10 the sky is not bright and blue but over cast and gray and the images come out dark ,under exposed ...though i shoot what the meter says...so i have a lot to learn ... but with that said i have had my camera on a tripod (200-400 tamron ) iso 800 , 1200 at f 8 , with fill flash for humming birds and thay all came out dull or soft looking same as when i tripoded and shot song birds on a stump in my back yard ..i did get a few pileted woodpecker shots to come out good and sharpened a bit in photoshop ... maybe they print better than they look on screen...but when i shoot my sports shots for the paper they all looked dull and slightly soft as the lighting is poor and i shoot at f2.8 to f3.5 1/400 iso 3200 with fill flash ...using a mono pod ...now if i sharpen them in photo shop so when they print they look good , the paper cant use them because they are sharpened... so i have been trying to work aroung that as well.. how do i tell if my lens and or camera is out of calibration ? i have been thinking it might also be a matter of focus point being slightlyt off as well as i see parts of the image are sharp focused ...i want so bad to create my own wlal hanging shots ...i think i will have to invest in better glass ...and a bush hawk not sure how much better it would be from a mono pod? anyhow lots of awesome advice you guys are great ....thanks ow and is there any books or videos you highly recommend to help make my techniques better and get the exposure spot on i have much to learn ...
and i guess your right i have to quite stumbling on wild life and go search for it when the lighting is better ...i just go out when i have time and shoot and usually the lighting is poor at best ...Bill B

Nov 10, 2009 at 03:48 AM

ZWDB08
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p.1 #20 · what is the best setup for wildlife and birds

tony your shots are awesome ... what pp software do you use ? man they are what i am trying to do ...thanks for the advice ..Bill B

Nov 10, 2009 at 03:51 AM

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