Noob and a Flash

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Archive 2009 · Noob and a Flash

adam0101
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p.1 #1 · Noob and a Flash

Just getting into Photography and enjoying it with my Canon 450D. I do a lot of indoor shots of family, parties, and other such events, although I frequently have had to resort to using the stock camera flash, which I hate. I want to get a good flash that will work with my camera but need to do it on a reasonable budget. I would like to stay around 75 - 150. Can anyone recommend some options?

Thanks,
Adam

Nov 07, 2009 at 02:41 AM

jrscls
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p.1 #2 · Noob and a Flash

Used Canon 420EX should be between $100 and $125. Otherwise get a 430EX. Avoid anything cheaper or you are wasting your money.

Nov 07, 2009 at 03:09 AM

Mark Peters
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p.1 #3 · Noob and a Flash

Vivitar 285HV

Nov 07, 2009 at 04:40 AM

sav1977
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p.1 #4 · Noob and a Flash

Start with a 430EX...you'll probably get a 580II soon after!

Multiple flash/off cam stuff gets fun.

Make sure whatever you get has a bounce head and learn how to use it with ceilings and walls. I still remember the first night I used bounce and it changed everything.

Nov 07, 2009 at 04:44 AM

Matt Philbin
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p.1 #5 · Noob and a Flash

I have a 580EXII and an older 420 model. When I want to shoot the types of things you described (indoor family snapshots, i.e. relatives opening presents on Christmas), I will often mount the 420 and throw the camera on AV or P mode. It's mindless, and seems to do a better job of being the automatic flash that I want in those (and only those) instances. It's great for basic fill light outdoors too! If you're new at this, especially the flash part, the 580 will be way too complicated to use effectively.

Nov 07, 2009 at 05:03 AM

irris
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p.1 #6 · Noob and a Flash

I managed to pick up a like new ex430II. Still have not really used it. But recharge time is amazingly quick. Seems to work very well. Far better then the onboard one. Just need a wireless transmitter. And one more of these.

Nov 07, 2009 at 05:44 AM

Dawei Ye
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p.1 #7 · Noob and a Flash

580EXII is the way to go. A 430EXII costs more because you'll eventually sell it (lose money on it) and buy a 580EXII anyway.

Nov 07, 2009 at 08:00 AM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #8 · Noob and a Flash

Matt Philbin wrote:
If you're new at this, especially the flash part, the 580 will be way too complicated to use effectively.

No its not, you can use in the way you described also (P mode).
I bought a 580ex as my first flash with my 350D and after a while bought a cheap used 550ex as a slave . both great flashes . If you want bargain look for a 550EX used

Nov 07, 2009 at 08:11 AM

mh2000
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p.1 #9 · Noob and a Flash

Sigma EF-530 DG ST for $150. Very powerful and good. I've had a Sigma 500 Super for years now and have never wanted to upgrade to the very expensive 580EXII. The 430EXII is a nice little unit too though... if you like. A non-dedicated Sunpak 383 is great for under $100, but you don't get focus assist which can be useful.

Nov 07, 2009 at 08:48 AM

Gochugogi
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p.1 #10 · Noob and a Flash

Dawei Ye wrote:
580EXII is the way to go. A 430EXII costs more because you'll eventually sell it (lose money on it) and buy a 580EXII anyway.

Yeah, I found the 430EX too big and bulky to carry so I bought a smaller pocket sized 220EX. Use lithium AAs and it's amazingly light. It's my favorite flash for travel, biking and hiking.

Nov 07, 2009 at 09:00 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #11 · Noob and a Flash

Have you seen this current thread? http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/832474

Nov 07, 2009 at 10:42 AM

Matt Philbin
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p.1 #12 · Noob and a Flash

Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Matt Philbin wrote:
If you're new at this, especially the flash part, the 580 will be way too complicated to use effectively.

No its not, you can use in the way you described also (P mode).

Sure, you can, but if that's your only purpose for this flash, than wouldn't you agree it's overkill? Kinda like buying the best new PC only to play solitare?

A new flash user doesn't immediately need the master capability, adjustable light output, or most of the other higher end features it offers. The older and smaller Canon flashes recharge quickly enough for casual users.

As for it's complexity, you can't deny this. It's the reason there are so many aftermarket tutorials on how to use the flash (like Chuck's). Not being a professional or constant flash user, it took me over a year to make friends with my 580.

Nov 07, 2009 at 01:33 PM

Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #13 · Noob and a Flash

Matt Philbin wrote:
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Matt Philbin wrote:
If you're new at this, especially the flash part, the 580 will be way too complicated to use effectively.

No its not, you can use in the way you described also (P mode).

Sure, you can, but if that's your only purpose for this flash, than wouldn't you agree it's overkill? Kinda like buying the best new PC only to play solitare?

A new flash user doesn't immediately need the master capability, adjustable light output, or most of the other higher end features it offers. The older and smaller Canon flashes recharge quickly enough for casual users.

Possibly
But pretty quickly you could have the situation where you might be wanting more and then realise that the lesser flash isn't going to cut it. You can always have less power but you cant make a less powerful flash more powerful.
Best bang for the buck is either a used 430EX as you have much more control or a 550 EX which is not far behind the 580EX. Both would be cheap enough and be very usable upto the point where you get another flash to use as a master or slave

As for it's complexity, you can't deny this. It's the reason there are so many aftermarket tutorials on how to use the flash (like Chuck's). Not being a professional or constant flash user, it took me over a year to make friends with my 580.

Nov 07, 2009 at 02:28 PM

Matt Philbin
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p.1 #14 · Noob and a Flash

agreed

Nov 07, 2009 at 02:37 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #15 · Noob and a Flash

Within your budget there aren't many options. Inexpensive manual flashes are a logical choice based on price, but only real advantage of the cheap manual flash approach is that its cheap. Over the long haul -- flashes last a long time if not dropped -- you will be better off with a Canon flash which will take advantage of your camera's metering and can also be used manually if the situation makes it more advantageous.

The dilemma of adding any external flash to the hot shoe is that will provide more light and range but will do nothing to improve the quality of the lighting, especially in portrait mode because flattering lighting is a function of several factors, but the most important is DIRECTION. We react to contrast patterns created by sources which come from overhead, so logically to get "natural" looking modeling with a flash it needs to come from the same direction: over the head of the subject. There are two basic strategies for getting light to come from above with flash:

One is bouncing it off the ceiling, but its only effective when there is a low white ceiling and at its best is not very controllable or predictable. Most single flash diffusers work by bouncing most of the light off the ceiling with some projected straight ahead to avoid dark eye sockets (caused by the brow shading the light off the ceiling). Bounce and "bowl / cap" diffusers produces bland uniform lighting like and overcast day which makes foreground and background distractions blend together.

The second is to raise the flash about 12-18" above the lens on a bracket. That height puts the flash far enough above the head of a subject at typical portrait distances of 8' to create a flattering, downward, highlight / shadow pattern. All of these are single flash shots done with the flash mounted on a bracket with a diffusers which projects all the flash output forward:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Most of the time I use two Canon 580ex flashes in a Master (Fill on bracket) / Slave (Key on stand) arrangement with DIY diffusers...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Follow the link in the photo, or just click on the WWW button below to find tutorials with more examples.

So getting the external flash is just the start of what can become an adventure of learning lighting. Get the flash, experiment with using it directly and bouncing. If you want to save some money try some DIY modification techniques. The DIY diffusers above can be made in 15 min for a few dollars and used straight ahead or with the top flap up for a split effect. Material isn't critical; in a pinch I make them out of a couple sheets of paper with a stapler. A plastic food container will have the same effect as a $30 plastic cap, and you'll find the net effect is about the same as my DIY device with the flap open to allow the light to bounce off the ceiling.

Then if you find you want more predictable and controlled results consider using a bracket and dual flash. If you get to this point eventually in retrospect you will wish you started with a minimum of a 430ex flash which can act as a slave in a dual flash set-up or be controlled by the in-camera flash of the 7D and we can assume all other future Canon bodies.

Look past your immediate needs, and consider it a longer term investment like a good lens.

Chuck

Nov 07, 2009 at 03:15 PM

Mark Peters
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p.1 #16 · Noob and a Flash

cgardner wrote:
Inexpensive manual flashes are a logical choice based on price, but only real advantage of the cheap manual flash approach is that its cheap.

Manual only I would agree, however with the vivitar's their autothyristor "auto" modes are frequently more consistent than E-ttl. (E-ttl has done more to make me consider a switch to NIkon than the mkIII/D3 debate)

Canon in their tutorial on the automatic exposure mode for the 580exII (which is similar to autothyristor) even notes "some users may find that it provides less fussy and more consistent flash exposures for ordinary on-camera flash with indoor scenes where you aren’t trying to balance flash and ambient light."

I own both versions of the 580, as well as vivitar 285HV's/283s

If the budget is firm - the 285HV is the best bang for the buck. It will require more thinking than simply sliding a 420ex on the hotshoe, but it is powerful, versatile and consistent. When one progresses to the point that they feel limited by it's function and lack of certain features (such as swivel), it becomes an excellent remote unit.

Nov 07, 2009 at 03:51 PM

helimat
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p.1 #17 · Noob and a Flash

Dawei Ye wrote:
580EXII is the way to go. A 430EXII costs more because you'll eventually sell it (lose money on it) and buy a 580EXII anyway.

That is hardly within his budget. A used 420/430EX is fine for most basic applications, and can be found within his price range.

Nov 07, 2009 at 03:54 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #18 · Noob and a Flash

Mark,

I bought my first Vivitar flashes in 1973 and know the pros and cons of auto-thyristor. It was great in the days of film with its two-stop latitude for over-exposure and where the field of view of the sensor on the flash matched the FOV the most commonly used lens: 50mm. But in the age of digital with its razor thin margins for correct highlight exposure and the use of zoom lenses its just not as good a tool for the job today as a flash controlled with TTL - through the lens metering.- in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Its pretty simple really: point, shoot, look at the overexposure warning and adjust EC and FEC as needed to control the background and foreground, respectively.

The most foolproof method for correct exposure with flash is power and distance. That's how I learned flash photography, starting from the get-go with two single power manual flashes. For example, with one flash on camera as fill and the other off camera, shooting from a distance to 8ft, putting the off camera flash at 6ft. results in the off camera incident strength being 1 stop greater. 2x Key overlapping 1x fill creates a 3:1 ratio which is ideal for general photography (it looks "normal" as seen by eye). Correct exposure is simply a matter of doing a one-time bracket test to find out what f/stop is needed.

From that point on perfect exposure is simply a matter of using that same f/stop any time in the future when shooting from 8ft, and creating similar benchmarks for other shooting distances. Back in the early 70's we'd shoot an entire wedding that way, adjusting the aperture over a range of 3-stops as distance changed. With practice it becomes so automatic you being to see and think of distance to the subject in terms of f/stops, not feet.

I still use that same method I learned working for Monte Zucker when shooting location portraits. The off camera flash goes an arm-span away between nose and center of the diffuser, I adjust the pose, take four measured steps back to 8ft raise the camera and shoot. The exposure with both 580ex flashes at 1/2 power is f/8 at ISO 100 every single time; no need for metering. Exposure is perfect regardless of clothing color and skin tone because there is no metering based on reflected light controlling the flash or camera: no variables. I can arrive, set up, and be shooting in about 2 minutes.

While that is without question the most consistent way to use flash I don't think it is the easiest way for a beginner with a modern DSLR to learn how to use flash to its best advantage. You'll also note I mentioned looking beyond current needs and budget. My Vivitars are now bookends, not because they don't work, but because the Canon flashes work better and are much easier to use

Chuck

Nov 07, 2009 at 04:29 PM

Jacob D
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p.1 #19 · Noob and a Flash

cgardner wrote:
The most foolproof method for correct exposure with flash is power and distance.

Yeah, especially with Canon's ETTL... it just doesn't cut the mustard IMO. Nikon's seem to be much better implemented but that's another thread. I mostly use my 580ex II set to manual and use guide numbers as my baseline.

When using it in ETTL I have found it under exposes by a stop or more. Usually FEC of +1 corrects this, but then I'll occasionally get a shot that's blown... so I don't really trust ETTL + FEC.

In response to the original question, I think a gently used 430ex would serve you well.

Nov 07, 2009 at 05:39 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #20 · Noob and a Flash

Its a mistake think FEC=0= "correct" exposure. FEC=0 and EC=0 are simply the camera's best guess based on how you the photographer compose the shot in the viewfinder.

The #1 cause of poor results is not understanding the difference between composing for flash vs natural light. Flash falls off 2-stops each time the distance doubles and is only technically correct in the sense of exposing the highlights at one distance. Combine those physical realities of flash with the fact digital images need to be exposed for the highlights and that TTL exposure systems react to reflected light and you'll come to the conclusion that flash photos need to be composed so what we want correctly exposed is closest to the flash, and it fills as much of the viewfinder as possible so the metering will react to the foreground, not a huge void surrounding it reflecting very little light.

Average metering aims for the middle. Photograph a light or dark wall with flash and both will come out close to the same tone middle gray in the photos. The meter will cut back the flash to make the more reflective than average light wall average, and pump out more light to make the darker on average. Fill the viewfinder or meter with a bride's white dress and the meter will output only enough light to make it gray. But if the bride is 15ft away and only filling a small part of the frame the meter, reacting to the reflected pre-flash, sees very little light coming back and outputs a great amount of flash trying to make what it sees gray. By a happy coincidence that "over" exposure by several stops is what is needed to make the white dress white instead of gray.

Evaluative metering is a bit smarter. It compares 35 or 63 "spot" ambient and flash readings taken after the shutter is fully pressed. If direct flash is used with a USM lens it also knows how far away to point of focus information. With the information it can make an educated guess how far away the point of correct exposure needs to be.

Of course if the photographer includes a table with a white tablecloth closer the the camera it will react to it and underexpose the people further back behind the table. If a person is standing near a white wall the the camera will meter differently than if the wall is black. If the light is bounced off the ceiling or a FongOmatic is used it can't use the distance info from the lens and there is very little contrast to provide a clue what is closest because the whole room it lit up evenly like an overcast day. Those are the types of situations where the camera just can't make a very good guess what the photographer wants correctly exposed. So when in doubt evaluative errs on the side of not blowing any highlights.

Thus the simple way to control exposure is to use the over exposure warning to guide FEC settings, keeping the areas where you the photographer want correctly exposed highlights below clipping. Start shooting that way and you will become more aware of when composing scenes with less important stuff in the foreground is the cause of underexposure further back. FEL? It will help correctly expose the stuff further back in the scene, but not prevent the things in the foreground from getting blown out. Flash, regardless of the metering mode, only correctly exposes at one distance.

The #2 mistake people make with ETTL is outshooting the range of the flash. Its very easy to do when bouncing or using modifiers. The Achilles Heel of TTL is the lack of feedback how much of the flash capacity is being used. If you take a shot at FEC=0 and the flash used more than 50% of its capacity, dialing in FEC = +1 will take it to 100% and +2 or +3 will have no effect. What I do when shooting in ETTL mode is also have M mode set for 1/1 - full power. Then if the ETTL results seem wonky I'll hit the mode button and fire off a full power shot for comparison, which tells me if I'm within the range.

The #3 mistake people make with ETTL is outshooting the recycling of the flash. Canon has what it calls a "quick flash" mode. It will allow the camera to fire the flash as soon as its at 1/6 to 1/2 capacity. If the flash is close and only using say 25% of total capacity for correct exposure, then 3-4 shots can be taken rapidly with the same exposure, but then the point is reached where the flash can't keep up and the shots become progressively underexposed.

The #4 mistake people make with ETTL flash is shooting at very high ISOs. If the ISO is high enough to expose the background with ambient light, the metering for the flash seeing the same light will say, "Look fine here, let's take a break" and not output much flash.

The #5 mistake people make outdoors is overlapping flash on top of sun lit highlights or blowing the ambient highlights with shutter speed. Flash can't "fill" and reduce contrast it it hits a sunny cheek and a dark eye socket at the same time. The skin is the same reflectance in both areas and both will be lifted the same amount. To use flash effectively with ambient light its necessary to shoot into the shadow side of the ambient light. Click the WWW button below and read my tutorials on high speed flash and using flash outdoors for details.

Chuck

Nov 07, 2009 at 07:45 PM

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