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Archive 2009 · M9 or something else?
  
 
brainiac
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p.7 #1 · M9 or something else?


thrice wrote:
I had aches in my middle finger for a couple of days after shooting a whole day non-stop (wedding) with the 5D-II + flash + small lens ... I can't imagine how pros do it day in day out.


Sometimes I will carry 3 EOS bodies for 12 hours or more, and my fingers, arms, shoulders, back and feet ache, but that's the job. I try to keep the weight down by avoiding 1 series bodies and using small flashes and the smallest lenses I can get away with. But the problem with M system is that it just can't compete. There is no AF, no liveview, no off-centre focussing, inaccurate framing, too poor a high iso performance, too slow a frame rate, no video, and the bodies are too expensive for me to carry three.

Honestly, the 500D is a far more effective tool for shooting a wedding. It's absurd to suggest that the M9 is suitable for this purpose purely on account of its size and weight. By that argument an IXUS is the best tool for shooting weddings.


Nov 14, 2009 at 02:15 PM
ulrikft2
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p.7 #2 · M9 or something else?


Noone is claiming that M-cameras are nice for weedings "purely on account of its size and weight"... that kind of strawmen is why I don't bother "arguing" with you on leicas RIchard

Nov 14, 2009 at 02:39 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #3 · M9 or something else?


carstenw wrote:
brainiac wrote:
I'm not proselytising, I'm considering the alternatives like the thread title says.


You? Mwahahaha, Brainiac, we all know that *you* aren't *considering* anything. You've got what you want, a Canon.

If you want to do comparisons, put equivalent lenses on.


No Carsten - I'm a switcher. Over the years I have used gear made by Leica, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Rollei, Schneider, Zeiss, Nikon, Canon, Contax, Pentax, Bronica, Minolta and Fuji, to name a few. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever. I look at the tools, and how they perform the tasks I have to carry out, and how much they cost. I would have no hesitation in using M system if it made sense. But cost is a big issue, and if I can get the same job done while spending less, then that's the route I'll take. I would love to be able to use smaller and lighter cameras than the EOS kit that I use now, but I have to assess the utility of the gear in an unsentimental way. For example, I am much more enthusiastic about the M9 than I was about the M8, for the obvious reasons that it is now full frame, with better resolution and better high iso performance.

But the competition does not stand still, and I have to compare the camera with much cheaper and more feature-packed alternatives. That's what this thread is about. "M9 or something else." Wide apertures only really matter to me when there is little light, and so for my uses an f2 lens on a 5D2 competes directly with an f1.4 lens on an M, due to the sensor difference. Given that constraint, the M9 just isn't $5000 smaller and lighter than a 5D2 with an Ultron. If you're happy with an f2.8 lens, iso 2500 iso and no built-in flash then the M9 really is a bit smaller, for a price. I'm just saying that if you choose your lenses carefully on D700 or 5D2 you can get pretty close to the M9's size/weight, save $5000, and enjoy the benefits of a more versatile system.

As regards 'pocketability' as a threshold for size, for me it needs clarification. There are three kinds of pocket that I use:
- jeans
- suit breast pocket
- coat/parker side-pocket

The reality for me is that the M9 fails on the first two counts, and succeeds on the third. But so does my 5D2, so all that money spent on the comparatively modest reduction in size doesn't really represent good value, for me:


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Nov 14, 2009 at 02:46 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #4 · M9 or something else?


thrice wrote:
I had aches in my middle finger for a couple of days after shooting a whole day non-stop (wedding) with the 5D-II + flash + small lens ... I can't imagine how pros do it day in day out. Every time I took a grab shot with the M6 + flash + 35/1.4 it was so relieving

ulrikft2 wrote:
Noone is claiming that M-cameras are nice for weedings "purely on account of its size and weight"... that kind of strawmen is why I don't bother "arguing" with you on leicas RIchard



Nov 14, 2009 at 02:50 PM
ulrikft2
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p.7 #5 · M9 or something else?


Still not close Richard.. it is a rather ugly strawman...


and on your other points, first of all: focusing off center with manual glass without live view is... well... depending on vf/screen on and off to say the least. Focus recompose works just as well for me on the d700, no reason to believe that the same won't apply for a rf. And well, blaming a manual RF-camera for not having AF.. do we really.. really have to go there?



Nov 14, 2009 at 02:58 PM
carstenw
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p.7 #6 · M9 or something else?


Anyway, Richard, there is something else you have forgotten, the original post:

"I have a lovely canon system with a bag full of great lenses, but it doesnt get used enough because it's too big..."

So, "something else" does not mean a Canon, since he specifically has a Canon and it is too big. Something else means something which is smaller than a Canon, like an M9.


Nov 14, 2009 at 03:11 PM
thrice
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p.7 #7 · M9 or something else?


Richard,

I never used the off-centre focus points, way quicker to focus-recompose for varying compositions.

You should tell John Laham that no one shoots weddings with an M, he somehow consistently gets 5 figures for the weddings he shoots, and he uses an M9 and an M8, and before that used an M6.

Sadly I can't wear a big jacket to a wedding, typically they require formal attire. I also make my friends uncomfortable at social gatherings with a DSLR, they don't care about my little M6, even with the nokton on it.

As for low light and IQ, well we'll see when I get one won't we.

Oh and sorry if I gave the impression I want to shoot social events or weddings, I want to shoot landscape. The vastly superior wide angles available for the rangefinder system, the incredibly compact telephotos up to usable focal lengths for landscape, the overall size and beautiful handling are all I need. Obviously I have the nokton for some low light shallow DOF fun. I feel so lucky that I don't need wizz bang AF ridiculous ISO wizardry to enjoy shooting I can handhold shots with fuji pro 800Z with the f/1.1 nokton in basically any lighting conditions and get results I'm happy with


Nov 14, 2009 at 03:32 PM
JimBuchanan
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p.7 #8 · M9 or something else?


Here is a compact snapshot version of the 5D using the 45mm Tessar. This was taken with the M8 without UV/IR filter as evidenced by the strap. Also, note the focus tab, ala old Leica lenses.


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Nov 14, 2009 at 04:06 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #9 · M9 or something else?


thrice wrote:
You should tell John Laham that no one shoots weddings with an M...


That's not what I said.


Nov 14, 2009 at 05:51 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #10 · M9 or something else?


ulrikft2 wrote:
focusing off center with manual glass without live view is... well... depending on vf/screen on and off to say the least.


That's not my experience:


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This image is copyrighted by the owner




Nov 14, 2009 at 05:58 PM
 



ulrikft2
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p.7 #11 · M9 or something else?


Snapping off 2-3-4-5-6--7 shots while focusing trough can be done, hitting 1 out of 2 when you do single shots too of course. But I don't see it as a very much better solution than focus/recompose.

Nov 14, 2009 at 07:05 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.7 #12 · M9 or something else?


brainiac wrote:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Maybe you should rename your nick ... Grainiac?


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:04 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #13 · M9 or something else?


ulrikft2 wrote:
And well, blaming a manual RF-camera for not having AF.. do we really.. really have to go there?


Who said anything about blame? It's simply a statement of fact that the M9 doesn't AF, and doesn't have any visual means for focussing off-centre, and it can only bracket at 2fps, and it has about a stop less good results at iso 3200 than the other cameras we're talking about. For the low light work that I often have to do those constraints make it not the best choice. Whether those issues matter to any of us is a personal thing, but they bear talking about. I don't think 'blame' is being placed.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:14 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #14 · M9 or something else?


kosmoskatten wrote:
brainiac wrote:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Maybe you should rename your nick ... Grainiac?


That's about iso 8000. I think it'll make reasonably nice prints at normal sizes.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:15 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.7 #15 · M9 or something else?


Yeah Brainiac, it was just a joke. I was trying to dig up some more of your grain laden indoor shots to boost the joke a little. Could not find them though. No harm at all intended. Friends? Foes? Friendly foes?

For ISO 8000 it looks great.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:17 PM
brainiac
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p.7 #16 · M9 or something else?


kosmoskatten wrote:
Yeah Brainiac, it was just a joke. I was trying to dig up some more of your grain laden indoor shots to boost the joke a little. Could not find them though. No harm at all intended. Friends? Foes? Friendly foes?

For ISO 8000 it looks great.


That's OK Henrik - I know you were being nice - you always are. Sometimes I just feel like responding in a humourless way because it makes a nice break from being so funny all the time.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:23 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.7 #17 · M9 or something else?


Personally I think noise levels today - in almost any decent modern camera - are so low that one can produce pretty darn good real life prints in situations where photographers were really struggling before.

I very seldom creep above ISO 800 and I have never crossed the ISO 1600 line myself.
But I am a bright guy which helps out in those murky situations.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:25 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.7 #18 · M9 or something else?


brainiac wrote:
kosmoskatten wrote:
Yeah Brainiac, it was just a joke. I was trying to dig up some more of your grain laden indoor shots to boost the joke a little. Could not find them though. No harm at all intended. Friends? Foes? Friendly foes?

For ISO 8000 it looks great.


That's OK Henrik - I know you were being nice - you always are. Sometimes I just feel like responding in a humourless way because it makes a nice break from being so funny all the time.


Touche Richard! That was a jab and a stab in one punchline - good on ya!


EDIT: I must remember to take your posts with a salt of grain.


Nov 14, 2009 at 08:26 PM
orangefirefish
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p.7 #19 · M9 or something else?


thrice wrote:
orangefirefish, I see we both have the 25/2.8 Biogon, great lens I used to own the fantastic 35mm summarit and see that you have the 50, is it as good as Sean Reid's review implies? It apparently has a little focus shift but that doesn't bother me too much (I have a 35 lux asph).

Cheers,
Dan

The 50 summarit is very, very nice. What I like most about it is the size- almost as small as the Elmarit 28 ASPH- super portable and great image quality to boot. I haven't read (and don't subscribe to Sean Reid) but from what I've seen the 50 summarit can definitely hold its ground against the summicron (from 2.5 and on of course). Haven't seen the focus shift- I pretty much shoot my lenses wide open unless I have to stop down (max shutter speed on the MP is 1/1000)
I use my 35 biogon more and more though- because it's a darn good lens and because the 35mm FOV suits my shooting more.


Nov 14, 2009 at 09:34 PM
Pindy
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p.7 #20 · M9 or something else?


orangefirefish wrote:

I feel you- (snip)
There are times for DSLRs, and moments for RFs. Choose the tool that fits the type of work you do.


That's true. I think the revelation for me is that 80% of shooting I do could be happily and more effectively done with a RF and that the D700 is gonna be there for the other stuff like wireless flash, frame rates above 2FPS, macro and close-focus shooting, remote-triggering and intervalometry, super-high ISOs and auto focus. One man's basics are another man's bells and whistles, I suppose. What a liberation to realize that all that I just mentioned—especially AF—are not basic requirements of (my) photography.

I had previously considered ISO 6400 a basic requirement (once available) until the notions of sharp, handheld photos at 1/8 or 1/15s became a reality.


Nov 14, 2009 at 11:05 PM
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