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Archive 2009 · Different diffusers

Dalantech
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p.2 #1 · Different diffusers

I'll add another "wrench to the gears": Get the diffuser really close to what you're shooting and the size of it won't matter -relative to the subject it will look huge and give you some really good diffusion...

The advantage to using a larger diffuser is that you can put some distance between it and the subject and still get diffused light. The disadvantage is that the flash duration will increase to compensate for the increase in distance to the subject, possibly impacting your ability to freeze motion...

Nov 08, 2009 at 06:29 AM

TheBat
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p.2 #2 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
I'll add another "wrench to the gears": Get the diffuser really close to what you're shooting and the size of it won't matter -relative to the subject it will look huge and give you some really good diffusion...
..

I thought that this was the idea behind the OEM twin macro lights being so close to the subject? Small powerful light either side of the lens to supply enough light and positioned to cancel out the other's strong shadows?
Thanks for your help guys, I'm just trying to shorten the experimentation/cost learning curve. . . .

Bruce

Nov 08, 2009 at 09:29 AM

Dalantech
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p.2 #3 · Different diffusers

TheBat wrote:
I thought that this was the idea behind the OEM twin macro lights being so close to the subject? Small powerful light either side of the lens to supply enough light and positioned to cancel out the other's strong shadows?
Bruce

Yes to the first question (although you still need to diffuse them) and the answer to your second question: The shadows will depend on how you position the lights...

Nov 08, 2009 at 10:11 AM

n0b0
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p.2 #4 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
The disadvantage is that the flash duration will increase to compensate for the increase in distance to the subject, possibly impacting your ability to freeze motion...

Never affected any of my shots. I don't think zero point something something extra second of flash duration is gonna make much difference. Besides, I use a much more powerful flash than the 24EX.

Nov 08, 2009 at 10:26 AM

Dalantech
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p.2 #5 · Different diffusers

n0b0 wrote:
Dalantech wrote:
The disadvantage is that the flash duration will increase to compensate for the increase in distance to the subject, possibly impacting your ability to freeze motion...

Never affected any of my shots. I don't think zero point something something extra second of flash duration is gonna make much difference. Besides, I use a much more powerful flash than the 24EX.

I did use the word "possibly" because it really depends on a lot of different factors, flash power being one of them.

I wouldn't discount how much flash duration can impact the detail in a photo though -every full stop change in flash power means that your virtual shutter speed is getting cut in half or doubling depending on how the power level shifts. I'm convinced that what a lot of people blame diffraction for is nothing but "macro motion blur" -movement by as little as half a pixel during the firing of the flash...

Nov 08, 2009 at 10:32 AM

n0b0
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p.2 #6 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
I did use the word "possibly" because it really depends on a lot of different factors, flash power being one of them.

I wouldn't discount how much flash duration can impact the detail in a photo though -every full stop change in flash power means that your virtual shutter speed is getting cut in half or doubling depending on how the power level shifts. I'm convinced that what a lot of people blame diffraction for is nothing but "macro motion blur" -movement by as little as half a pixel during the firing of the flash...

What if I already expose for the ambient light like in my hopper sample above and this spider below. 1/50s exposure at midday.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Nov 08, 2009 at 10:48 AM

Dalantech
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p.2 #7 · Different diffusers

n0b0 wrote:
What if I already expose for the ambient light like in my hopper sample above and this spider below. 1/50s exposure at midday.

Then you're relying on the shutter speed to freeze the motion in the scene -unless the subject is back lit if the flash doesn't fire the resulting image won't be completely black...

You're starting to argue apples and oranges n0b0...

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:02 AM

n0b0
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p.2 #8 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
Then you're relying on the shutter speed to freeze the motion in the scene -unless the subject is back lit if the flash doesn't fire the resulting image won't be completely black...

You're starting to argue apples and oranges n0b0...

How's 1/50s gonna freeze the motion?

No... I'm trying to say that that flash duration has very little impact, if any, on the detail in a photo because if we follow your logic, any shots with slow shutter speed like mine or even slower for natural light macro would've been soft due to that "macro motion blur" as you call it, don't you think so?

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:40 AM

Dalantech
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p.2 #9 · Different diffusers

n0b0 wrote:
How's 1/50s gonna freeze the motion?

Simple: Either you or the subject didn't move, or there was very little natural light hitting the subject so that the main source of light was the flash...

n0b0 wrote:
No... I'm trying to say that that flash duration has very little impact, if any, on the detail in a photo because if we follow your logic, any shots with slow shutter speed like mine or even slower for natural light macro would've been soft due to that "macro motion blur" as you call it, don't you think so?

See above -it's possible that the flash was the only light source on the subject. One way to tell is to take two images, one with the flash and one without. If the subject is a silhouette then the flash is freezing the motion for you. The closer you get to the ambient exposure for the subject the more you're relying on the shutter. The further away you get from the ambient exposure for the subject the more you're relying on the flash to freeze motion.

It's very common for me to be out shooting on a brutally sunny day at 2x, F13, ISO 100, and 1/250 and if the flash doesn't fire there's still quite a bit of detail showing up in a scene. Most of the time it's the background and not the subject, and since it's out of focus motion blur won't make any difference.

Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 12:11 PM · View previous versions

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:50 AM

n0b0
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p.2 #10 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
n0b0 wrote:
How's 1/50s gonna freeze the motion?

Simple: Either you or the subject didn't move, or there was very little natural light hitting the subject so that the main source of light was the flash...

Sure the subject and I didn't move but what about that half a pixel "macro motion blur" you mentioned? Don't you think it would've affected my photos?

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:10 PM

Dalantech
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p.2 #11 · Different diffusers

n0b0 wrote:
Sure the subject and I didn't move but what about that half a pixel "macro motion blur" you mentioned? Don't you think it would've affected my photos?

If the flash is freezing the motion -no. Normally it's a problem at higher magnifications than the images that you've posted. Above life size, in the 2x to 5x range, macro motion blur is more of a problem. The reason why I can get away with F13 up to 3x, and F10 (or F11) up to 5x is because I go out of my way to control the motion in the scene. Sure you'll see diffraction if you're looking at 100% crops, or shooting a subject that has some super fine detail, but any loss of detail in an image resized for the web (or in a poster sized print) is going to be due more to motion blur than to diffraction.

This is an old issue n0b0 -one that you'll never be able to sway me on because my experience, and my images, have proved me right. My gallery, and the settings I use on the camera, are my proof...

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:17 PM

TheBat
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p.2 #12 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
. The reason why I can get away with F13 up to 3x, and F10 (or F11) up to 5x is because I go out of my way to control the motion in the scene. Sure you'll see diffraction if you're looking at 100% crops,

Hi Dalantech,
Sorry but I'm getting a little confused with these two statements

Firstly, and I'm admitting my 'newbie' tag openly, how do you "Go out of your way to control the motion in a scene", when you have previously stated that you don't use a tripod and hand hold for your exposures?
And secondly, didn't you just state that you didn't believe in diffraction that in your mind it was "macro motion blur" ??
Again guys, I'm new and just trying to get an early grip on an aparently 'testy' subject. Thanks for your input.
Bruce

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:42 PM

Dalantech
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p.2 #13 · Different diffusers

TheBat wrote:
Hi Dalantech,
Sorry but I'm getting a little confused with these two statements

Firstly, and I'm admitting my 'newbie' tag openly, how do you "Go out of your way to control the motion in a scene", when you have previously stated that you don't use a tripod and hand hold for your exposures?

Left Hand Brace Technique. I also look for things that I can brace the camera on. I placed this dragonfly on a stone wall (it was early in the day and the critter was covered in dew) and I braced the camera on that same wall.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

TheBat wrote:
And secondly, didn't you just state that you didn't believe in diffraction that in your mind it was "macro motion blur" ??
Bruce

You're putting words in my mouth -seems to happen all too often around here

I said "a lot of what people blame on diffraction is macro motion blur." -I never said that I didn't believe in diffraction...

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:49 PM

n0b0
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p.2 #14 · Different diffusers

4x, f/10, 1/80s FEC +1, handheld. Again, shouldn't the longer flash duration affected this image with this half a pixel "macro motion blur" thingee?

This image is copyrighted by the owner

I go out of my way to control the motion in the scene.

Please, enlighten me.

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:59 PM

Dalantech
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p.2 #15 · Different diffusers

n0b0 wrote:
4x, f/10, 1/80s FEC +1, handheld. Again, shouldn't the longer flash duration affected this image with this half a pixel "macro motion blur" thingee?

What longer flash duration? As compared to what? Sorry n0b0, but I've pretty much written you off...

n0b0 wrote:
I go out of my way to control the motion in the scene.

Please, enlighten me.

See the post above yours...

Nov 08, 2009 at 01:03 PM

n0b0
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p.2 #16 · Different diffusers

You said,

Dalantech wrote:
The disadvantage is that the flash duration will increase to compensate for the increase in distance to the subject, possibly impacting your ability to freeze motion...

Well I had to place the flash further away from the spider and I also had to increase the FEC, doesn't that make the flash duration longer according to you?

You also said,
Dalantech wrote:
Normally it's a problem at higher magnifications than the images that you've posted.

So I posted a higher mag sample.

Nov 08, 2009 at 01:28 PM

TheBat
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p.2 #17 · Different diffusers

Dalantech wrote:
. I'm convinced that what a lot of people blame diffraction for is nothing but "macro motion blur" -movement by as little as half a pixel during the firing of the flash...

I stand corrected, but I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. . . .seems to me that you already have plenty?
You're convinced that it's not diffraction but in fact your self titled "macro motion blur"?
I have re-entered this "macro motion blur" into Google and the only reference that I can find for it is from you. Seeing as though you are single handedly re-writing the photographic hand book- macro edition, could you take the time to explain your wisdom? As I stated, I was asking a simple question as a 'newbie' yet you seem to be quite content to jump down anyone's throat when they dare question you

I won't bother again. . . .

Bruce

Nov 08, 2009 at 01:32 PM

Dalantech
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p.2 #18 · Different diffusers

Sorry TheBat, but I'm not trying to jump down anyone's throat. Due to the nature of your reply to me I won't be answering you -seems that you've got a very negative opinion of me and no matter what I say it's going to be taken wrong...

I was honestly trying to help you...

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:29 PM

M Vers
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p.2 #19 · Different diffusers

TheBat wrote:
Dalantech wrote:
. I'm convinced that what a lot of people blame diffraction for is nothing but "macro motion blur" -movement by as little as half a pixel during the firing of the flash...

I stand corrected, but I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. . . .seems to me that you already have plenty?
You're convinced that it's not diffraction but in fact your self titled "macro motion blur"?
I have re-entered this "macro motion blur" into Google and the only reference that I can find for it is from you. Seeing as though you are single handedly re-writing the photographic hand book- macro edition, could you take the time to explain your wisdom? As I stated, I was asking a simple question as a 'newbie' yet you seem to be quite content to jump down anyone's throat when they dare question you

I won't bother again. . . .

Bruce

I hate to get in the middle of this but feel compelled to sort out any misconceptions you may have in reference to Dalantech's posts. The fact is both diffraction AND motion blur can and do play roles in macro photography. Just how much and or when each of these factors play a defining role varies from situation to situation. John (Dalantech) has had a lot of experience shooting macro and fiddling with flash diffusion and while I'm not recommending you take his word as gospel I will recommend you respect it. It seems he has been touchy lately (sorry, John--it's true

) but try not to take it as an insult for he's usually not--in all actuality he is one of the most insightful and helpful members here in the macro forum.

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:30 PM

Dalantech
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p.2 #20 · Different diffusers

M Vers wrote:
... It seems he has been touchy lately (sorry, John--it's true

) but try not to take it as an insult for he's usually not--in all actuality he is one of the most insightful and helpful members here in the macro forum.

I'm just a crotchety old fart

Seriously I didn't think I was being touchy, but some of my posts were a little "blunt".

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:35 PM

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