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p.1 #1 · what i wish ...


hi,
may this topic is childish, but this would be my very deep dream of my cam.
and may be someone from leica, panasonic or Zeiss is reading here


... is an M-mount Fullframe Compact with ELV.
this should not be so difficult !
and i think if you cancel the complete rangefinder and mirror
technique the costs should be not 8K like the M9

this is just a little M9 mixed with GF1 and G1 ....


come one product manager !

yes you cam!

r





Nov 02, 2009 at 02:42 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.1 #2 · what i wish ...


I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Nov 02, 2009 at 02:53 PM
cgiff
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p.1 #3 · what i wish ...


I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.
That said, I want nothing more in the camera world than an OM-1 sized camera with a FX sensor. The GF-1 is a great size but I just don't want to shoot anything smaller than a full-sized 35mm sensor. I also am not holding my breath for something like this...

Nov 02, 2009 at 03:20 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.1 #4 · what i wish ...


cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Nov 02, 2009 at 03:24 PM
rsrsrs
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p.1 #5 · what i wish ...


... don't want to shoot anything smaller than a full-sized 35mm sensor.

unfortunately, that's it.

r

Nov 02, 2009 at 03:24 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.1 #6 · what i wish ...


Yakim Peled wrote:
I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.


I would be absolutely, positively, stunned if Canon or Nikon did a full frame mirrorless camera. In fact, I would be surprised if Canon in particular does anything other than put an APS-C sensor in some sort of fixed-lens super zoom similar to a G series camera. The market for a FF mirrorless camera is extremely small and doesn't justify the expense involved in developing and marketing a completely new lens line, which is exactly what they'd need to do - especially considering that that market is probably much more inclined to use the huge variety of 3rd party glass the mount would enable use with. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective for a company like Canon.

Nov 02, 2009 at 03:36 PM
slungu
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p.1 #7 · what i wish ...


cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


Well, maybe not native, but look, we are here in the ALT forum, aren't we ? So as long as you can adapt M-lenses, that would still be a good shot. One thing I don't know : one advantage with the rangefinder is that it has nothing to do with the aperture setting of the lens. How can this be done with a EVF ? Asking because one thing I don't like with stop down is the fact that I either have to fiddle with the aperture ring after I focus, loosing precious time, or focus already stopped down with a dark viewfinder - on the SLR that is.
Still, Canon has abandoned rangefinders a long time ago as a top line system, so I doubt they will make such a thing even without the rangefinder, maybe also because it will be on top of the P&S range they have.

Regards,
Stefan

Nov 02, 2009 at 03:42 PM
rsrsrs
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p.1 #8 · what i wish ...


hi,
one thing makes me hope, i think ELV is much cheaper.
than rangefinder or mirror - see Panasonic or Olympus.

and of course they will make their own lens with no need to stop down.
or some how ....

r

Nov 02, 2009 at 03:52 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.1 #9 · what i wish ...


slungu wrote:Asking because one thing I don't like with stop down is the fact that I either have to fiddle with the aperture ring after I focus, loosing precious time, or focus already stopped down with a dark viewfinder - on the SLR that is.


I think what the OP is referring to is a system more like the mirrorless Micro 4/3 systems being produced by Olympus and Panasonic, only full frame. So, no SLR or Rangefinding mechanism in it at all. In that case, the aperture thing isn't really a big deal unless you're in really, really poor light since the EVF or LCD just compensates for the loss of light automatically. And of course you automatically get a DoF preview.

Nov 02, 2009 at 04:00 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.1 #10 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
I would not be at all surprised if Canon and Nikon will introduce such cameras in about a year or two. And if they would, plenty of adapters will enable you to mount any lens you want, just as the current MFT cams.


I would be absolutely, positively, stunned if Canon or Nikon did a full frame mirrorless camera. In fact, I would be surprised if Canon in particular does anything other than put an APS-C sensor in some sort of fixed-lens super zoom similar to a G series camera. The market for a FF mirrorless camera is extremely small and doesn't justify the expense involved in developing and marketing a completely new lens line, which is exactly what they'd need to do - especially considering that that market is probably much more inclined to use the huge variety of 3rd party glass the mount would enable use with. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective for a company like Canon.


Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.

Removing the mirror will make the DSLR cheaper, lighter, more reliable and with a host of new/improved features like faster FPS. We can see the first bud (translating from Hebrew here, meaning the first sign of things to come) in the EX-F1.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


Nov 02, 2009 at 04:48 PM
James R
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p.1 #11 · what i wish ...


Yakim Peled wrote:
cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Put an EF or F mount lens on any M size camera and you have a real balance issue. Just image a Nikon 14-24 or Canon 85 1.2 on a Leica M9 (with live view for this hypothetical)....now try focusing....now try carrying it around your neck (without damaging the flange)....and what have you gained? Nothing, but you lose the advantages of their DSLR systems.


Nov 02, 2009 at 05:19 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.1 #12 · what i wish ...


Yakim Peled wrote:
Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.


Then they'll no longer be SLRs. But again, what you say may be true but it doesn't mean Canon will be willing to throw out decades of lens designs and alienate millions of current customers to take advantage of mirrorless designs. Again, from a business perspective I don't see why Canon would do it.

Let me put on my Product Manager hat here for a moment (that's what I do in real life, fwiw). From a business perspective, staying with the status quo makes more sense for them in terms of SLRs. When they look at the Micro 4/3 market and the needs it's addressing, I suspect that "interchangeable lenses" will not be one of the core features Canon sees as being important there. I think they will see that better DoF control, better high ISO quality and higher Dynamic Range in highly responsive bodies as being the core values that the largest number of potential MFT buyers really want in comparison to P&S cameras and thus will provide a body that does that with a fixed lens while still providing an upgrade path into Canon's extremely well-established (and extremely profitable) dSLR system.

Nov 02, 2009 at 05:21 PM
dasrocket
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p.1 #13 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:
I think what the OP is referring to is a system more like the mirrorless Micro 4/3 systems being produced by Olympus and Panasonic, only full frame. So, no SLR or Rangefinding mechanism in it at all. In that case, the aperture thing isn't really a big deal unless you're in really, really poor light since the EVF or LCD just compensates for the loss of light automatically. And of course you automatically get a DoF preview.



Th EVFs are not there yet. The G1 becomes almost unusable at smaller aps with the framerate dropping real low and the noise real high. Certainly useless with MF whether its bright out or not.
One day they will be as good as OVFs but not yet.

Nov 02, 2009 at 05:32 PM
dasrocket
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p.1 #14 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.


Then they'll no longer be SLRs. But again, what you say may be true but it doesn't mean Canon will be willing to throw out decades of lens designs and alienate millions of current customers to take advantage of mirrorless designs. Again, from a business perspective I don't see why Canon would do it.

Let me put on my Product Manager hat here for a moment (that's what I do in real life, fwiw). From a business perspective, staying with the status quo makes more sense for them in terms of SLRs. When they look at the Micro 4/3 market and the needs it's addressing, I suspect that "interchangeable lenses" will not be one of the core features Canon sees as being important there. I think they will see that better DoF control, better high ISO quality and higher Dynamic Range in highly responsive bodies as being the core values that the largest number of potential MFT buyers really want in comparison to P&S cameras and thus will provide a body that does that with a fixed lens while still providing an upgrade path into Canon's extremely well-established (and extremely profitable) dSLR system.


The DSLR segment will eventually flatten out in growth, and eventually the last field will be played out (small, inexpensive FF DSLR); new growth markets, from a business perspective are allways sought after.

One major advantage of a NIKON or CANON mirrorless INTERCHANGEABLE lens body is its ability to fully use the native AF lenses (D, DX, EF and EFS respectively). They then have a body that many DSLR owners may grab as a carry-on, or back-up to their extensive AF lens lineup. An optional lens line is also not out of reach given each company's RD department sizes.

Nov 02, 2009 at 05:42 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #15 · what i wish ...


Personally, I think we will see a mirrorless full-frame from the big manufacturers, and I don't think it'll be too long before it happens. They've opened up a large new market putting HD video on the cameras, and that segment isn't going to be satisfied long with the three inch screen on the back of the camera as their only viewfinder. It may just be my limited imagination (or an overestimation of how hard they'll work to satisfy video shooters), but I think it leads to a mirrorless solution and the end of the DSLR as we know it.

Nov 02, 2009 at 08:14 PM
Lotusm50
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p.1 #16 · what i wish ...


rsrsrs wrote:
may this topic is childish, but this would be my very deep dream of my cam.
and may be someone from leica, panasonic or Zeiss is reading here



We do this kind of wishing all the time in the this forum. Welcome to the play ground.

We can only hope that people from Leica, Zeiss, Panasonic and others read this forum. They would certainly be smart if they did.



Nov 02, 2009 at 08:29 PM
dasrocket
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p.1 #17 · what i wish ...


These forums are about as good a market research and demographic tool as it gets. I hope they do.
...and if so, I want a FF mirrorless canon in polished aluminum finish!

Nov 02, 2009 at 09:57 PM
Sam Bennett
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p.1 #18 · what i wish ...


dasrocket wrote:
These forums are about as good a market research and demographic tool as it gets. I hope they do.
...and if so, I want a FF mirrorless canon in polished aluminum finish!


Depends on the market you're studying, of course.

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:05 PM
Jonas B
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p.1 #19 · what i wish ...


Add my name to that wish list.

I am for the moment selling off my FF stuff. I'm not happy about it but I have to go back to the G1. The last year or so I have noticed I get more out of focus images than earlier and I simply need a Live View viewfinder with the capability to enlarge the image for focusing.

It's great being able to focus precisely and handling the menu system and check the images all in the viewfinder and without having to put any reading glasses on.

I'm nice, neat and flexible and can adopt to the smaller sensor while waiting for the real stuff. Or maybe I'm not all of that, I'll just try to do what I have to do.

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:19 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.1 #20 · what i wish ...


James R wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
cgiff wrote:
I will be very surprised if Canon or Nikon releases a camera that supports mounting anything other than EF or F-mount glass. Very happy but very surprised.


It's all a question if they will retain their FDR. My guess is that they will shorten it to allow for smaller dimensions and an adapter will enable you to mount EF/F lenses.

We'll see.......

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Put an EF or F mount lens on any M size camera and you have a real balance issue. Just image a Nikon 14-24 or Canon 85 1.2 on a Leica M9 (with live view for this hypothetical)....now try focusing....now try carrying it around your neck (without damaging the flange)....and what have you gained? Nothing, but you lose the advantages of their DSLR systems.


EF/F lenses are just the icing on the cake. With such a rich system it would be silly to throw them all away and start from scratch. Should you want to use them, just put the adapter and all is well. However, smaller and lighter lenses - naive to this new format - will be produced.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Nov 03, 2009 at 09:56 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.1 #21 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
Apart from allowing faster AF, the mirror has no advantage in a DSLR. As soon as contrast AF is as fast as phase AF, the last remaining reason for its existence will be gone. My guess is that by 2020 no new DSLR will have it.


Then they'll no longer be SLRs. But again, what you say may be true but it doesn't mean Canon will be willing to throw out decades of lens designs and alienate millions of current customers to take advantage of mirrorless designs. Again, from a business perspective I don't see why Canon would do it.

Let me put on my Product Manager hat here for a moment (that's what I do in real life, fwiw). From a business perspective, staying with the status quo makes more sense for them in terms of SLRs. When they look at the Micro 4/3 market and the needs it's addressing, I suspect that "interchangeable lenses" will not be one of the core features Canon sees as being important there. I think they will see that better DoF control, better high ISO quality and higher Dynamic Range in highly responsive bodies as being the core values that the largest number of potential MFT buyers really want in comparison to P&S cameras and thus will provide a body that does that with a fixed lens while still providing an upgrade path into Canon's extremely well-established (and extremely profitable) dSLR system.


Hey Mr. Product Manager, this is your Marketing Manager speaking. The mirror is just a leftover from the film days. It has no real use in the digital era. The MFT idea is a great one and many are buying it. Thus, we are going to go mirrorless as well. Understood?

Now, the first step is to create two mirrorless Rebels with a few S-EF (S is for Small ) kit lenses, just as we did with the first 18-55 EF-S. Oh, and a S-EF to EF/EF-S adapter of course. These Rebels will be a GH1 and GF1 look-alike. The next step will be a mirrorless 50D and the final step, a mirrorless 1D4. Naturally, second and third steps will be kept under tight security and will not be released until we are absolutely sure that (a) They work at least as well as current models, (b) They are cheaper than current models and (c) The public accepts the change well.

We are going to conquer the world and leave Sony in the dust. Now, get to work and make the me proud Bennett-San.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Nov 03, 2009 at 10:19 AM
Sam Bennett
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p.1 #22 · what i wish ...


Yakim Peled wrote:
Hey Mr. Product Manager, this is your Marketing Manager speaking. The mirror is just a leftover from the film days. It has no real use in the digital era. The MFT idea is a great one and many are buying it. Thus, we are going to go mirrorless as well. Understood?


How many times are we going to go around and round on this? I see the logic in not having a mirror and acknowledge that Live View allows us to have a system that previously was impossible - this isn't a technical issue. All I'm saying is that for Canon, the business case isn't solid enough to justify a completely new product line. Canon will need to see its entry-level dSLR sales evaporate before it really takes notice and even then its response is not necessarily a mirrorless interchangeable lens system - it may simply be a family of "Super G" cameras with APS-C sensors and a few different zoom options.

Again, it comes back to what market MFT is addressing, and what the majority of those people really want, and I think that it is a mistake to assume that all the people buying MFT see "interchangeable lenses" as being core to that need. That is the fallacy in treating FredMiranda.com as a good data point for market research - like it or not guys, but we're not a good representative of the numbers that Panasonic's going after. As we've seen with the interest in the X1, there are some people who don't really give a hoot about interchangeable lenses, they want just want something with demonstrably higher quality, the DoF (a large part of the "look" of the photo), responsiveness and performance of a dSLR. Canon does not need a new interchangeable lens system to address that market need.

But I think Canon's primary strategy to counter MFT in the near term is going to simply make dSLRs cheaper. The biggest problem with MFT right now is that the cameras are still relatively expensive. As much as people talk about mirrorless designs being cheaper to make since you don't have as many moving parts, Canon and Nikon both manage to make their entry-level offerings cheaper than MFTs, and as we've seen Canon is still very profitable. If Canon sees a lot of pressure from MFT, they'll just make consumers an offer they can't refuse - very cheap dSLRs with better image quality than the smaller, but more expensive MFTs. It then becomes a question of how important smallness is to people since dSLRs still perform better in virtually every regard.

For what its worth, I hope I'm wrong. I think MFT is the best thing to happen to digital cameras in a long time, and competition is a good thing - the more people playing in this market, the better. But Canon is a giant company and they've proven unwilling to do anything that they see as jeopardizing their dSLR profits - the G Series should have gotten a much bigger, less dense sensor years ago, but that would have made dSLRs less attractive. With Canon still very profitable in 2009, things will have to change drastically in 2010 for them to make any moves like this, and I just don't see it happening.

Nov 03, 2009 at 02:22 PM
slungu
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p.1 #23 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:
How many times are we going to go around and round on this? I see the logic in not having a mirror and acknowledge that Live View allows us to have a system that previously was impossible - this isn't a technical issue. All I'm saying is that for Canon, the business case isn't solid enough to justify a completely new product line. Canon will need to see its entry-level dSLR sales evaporate before it really takes notice and even then its response is not necessarily a mirrorless interchangeable lens system - it may simply be a family of "Super G" cameras with APS-C sensors and a few different zoom options.

Again, it comes back to what market MFT is addressing, and what the majority of those people really want, and I think that it is a mistake to assume that all the people buying MFT see "interchangeable lenses" as being core to that need. That is the fallacy in treating FredMiranda.com as a good data point for market research - like it or not guys, but we're not a good representative of the numbers that Panasonic's going after. As we've seen with the interest in the X1, there are some people who don't really give a hoot about interchangeable lenses, they want just want something with demonstrably higher quality, the DoF (a large part of the "look" of the photo), responsiveness and performance of a dSLR. Canon does not need a new interchangeable lens system to address that market need.

But I think Canon's primary strategy to counter MFT in the near term is going to simply make dSLRs cheaper. The biggest problem with MFT right now is that the cameras are still relatively expensive. As much as people talk about mirrorless designs being cheaper to make since you don't have as many moving parts, Canon and Nikon both manage to make their entry-level offerings cheaper than MFTs, and as we've seen Canon is still very profitable. If Canon sees a lot of pressure from MFT, they'll just make consumers an offer they can't refuse - very cheap dSLRs with better image quality than the smaller, but more expensive MFTs. It then becomes a question of how important smallness is to people since dSLRs still perform better in virtually every regard.

For what its worth, I hope I'm wrong. I think MFT is the best thing to happen to digital cameras in a long time, and competition is a good thing - the more people playing in this market, the better. But Canon is a giant company and they've proven unwilling to do anything that they see as jeopardizing their dSLR profits - the G Series should have gotten a much bigger, less dense sensor years ago, but that would have made dSLRs less attractive. With Canon still very profitable in 2009, things will have to change drastically in 2010 for them to make any moves like this, and I just don't see it happening.


Well, it depends on how they think about it. With the G-Series, making them too good would be a problem since they would get both less dSLR and lenses sold. With a interchangable system they may sell lenses and bodys and get some part of the dSLR market from other competitors as well, even if they would maybe loos some own dSLR buys. Problem is, if they make the move it is probably only a matter of time until the others follow. They know how to play the game, since they were first to bring dSLR for the masses, so if they think it is going to pay off, they will introduce another line, but they will not risk loosing customers that they can satisfy with what they have to a new line with uncertain future. If there is evidence that a mirrorless, big-sensor camera is likely to be a commercial success, they will bring something to the market, if they think it is a niche product, they will leave this to others ( see fixed focal systems like the Sigma and so on ). For now, the mFT is something of a gadgetery, maybe it will develop over time, but mFT is not what we want - we want a FF mirrorless camera, and bar the M9 there is no such thing on the market right now.

Nov 03, 2009 at 02:49 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #24 · what i wish ...


This is coming, have no doubt about it, and my bet is sooner than we all think. The only question is who will get there first with a FF mirrorless system. My bet is on Sony or, at least a Sony partnership with another player. Then again, we may have a player like Epson (who seems to be at the forefront of EVF technology) partner with a Cosina ala RD-1.

Nov 03, 2009 at 03:00 PM
dasrocket
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p.1 #25 · what i wish ...


Sam Bennett wrote:...Canon will need to see its entry-level dSLR sales evaporate before it really takes notice and even then its response is not necessarily a mirrorless interchangeable lens system - it may simply be a family of "Super G" cameras with APS-C sensors and a few different zoom options.
The falacy in this statement is that m43 bodies will remain at the level of the entry level DSLRs; not likely; when they start performing to the level of the mid range cameras, CANIKON will have to address a diffrent market. Who do you think is paying 1K+ for these bodies, photographers who were considering $600 REBELs?

As we've seen with the interest in the X1, there are some people who don't really give a hoot about interchangeable lenses, they want just want something with demonstrably higher quality, the DoF (a large part of the "look" of the photo), responsiveness and performance of a dSLR. Canon does not need a new interchangeable lens system to address that market need.
The people who seriously consider a 2K fixed lens crop small (by APSc stds) sensor probably already have an arsenal of L lenses onto one or two 1 series bodies; not really a segment to be considered a market by any stretch.

...If Canon sees a lot of pressure from MFT, they'll just make consumers an offer they can't refuse - very cheap dSLRs with better image quality than the smaller, but more expensive MFTs. It then becomes a question of how important smallness is to people since dSLRs still perform better in virtually every regard.
.

Please explain to me how my XSi performs better than my G1; having used both extensively, I have missed this entirely

Nov 03, 2009 at 03:16 PM

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