Scott yes I agree, Jeremy wow....your sense of humour is right on my lines...as soon as saw your post my dell 2407 got sprayed with cheese on toast. Im sending you the bill.
Thank you for liberating the darker coners of my sarcasm.
Mr. Malik wrote:
Cheers for bringing up this point...
We do have to remember though that sometimes CC can and must be harsh in order to get the point across and direct the person the right way. If we are all too friendly and "thoughtful" we may begin to refrain from providing honest.
dpun, I totally agree with your sentiments. I guess we all have to start somewhere though right. Education is free these days, especially if your resourceful. And as far as competition goes, I guess it is up to the photographer to stay ahead of the competition. How much weddings can a photog shoot in a year anyway.... sometimes you kind of need to hand over business to someone else because you get swamped or overbooked right?
Another thing to take into context is the entire notion of Post Processing...
I mean surely money can buy the latest gear and surely the marketing will go a long way, but what you do after you have snapped the images really defines who you are. I think Hoffer is prime example of that. We all know by know that he uses L glass on Canon Bodies, but its his post processing work that really differentiates his work from the rest. To that effect, I say welcome the noobs. If they are passionate enough to excel at this and create a business out of it, good luck to them. If they do it strictly for the money, then I guess it will show in their work.
In this business I think Passion is everything. I may not have been in the business too long, but I have been around photogs and I can see who does the work with passion and who shoots to pay the bills.
Anyways, I think this is a great thread. I just wanted to ad my two cents as I am very passionate about the issue as a whole.
Btw........
If not FM, then the lurkers will go to other forums.... this cannot be stopped so there is no point in getting vexed over it. I say embrace this sticky situation and just be your A game at all times.
+100
Also, it should be noted that all the experts here were noobs at some point (nobody is born with a camera in hand... well except Hoff and Ed) and were seeking advice (maybe not here, but other mediums) and were lucky/grateful when they received.
True , it is hard to separate the noobs that just want the quick and dirty advice without putting in the work from others that truly want to get better... it is a tough balance but it should be done with civility... you never know when the next "{put your favorite tog's name here}" will erupt into the scene.
It probably should be added to the sticky thread at the begin of the forum something about "what to expect from your first CC" perhaps:
* If nobody comments on it... you should go back and look into other first posters that got comments and see the quality of their image and compare to yours. This will set your starting point bar... Sorry you didn't get specific feedback but actually... you did get it (implicit).
* Star photogs in this thread are busy and get lots of requests... they usually wont CC your stuff until you show some "proven record" and provide something back to the FM community via post, answers, etc. It is what it is... use the advice of the kind people that did offer and set this as yet another goal to attain.
* Lurk a bit before posting (see first point). It will also show you (if/when you get advice) from who is worth listening to.. perhaps the photog that ALWAYS YELLS to MAKE A POINT might come as harsh but the intentions are good... perhaps not.... its up to you to decide.
I guessed the title should be "What's up with the world/society".
The FM forum cannot escape or not reflect on what's currently going in society. The
civility level is definitely going down for quite sometime, as some people sometime not even provide a good C&C, but only personal attack. I always thought that if I don't have any nice/positive thing to say, then I rather keep quiet. I agree that many FMers here are very helpful, and just like any big family, there will be some "black sheep" include, and more often than not, it's their own issue (you can see their pattern from their posts), so just ignore it.
Sam tran wrote:
I guessed the title should be "What's up with the world/society".
The FM forum cannot escape or not reflect on what's currently going in society. The
civility level is definitely going down for quite sometime, as some people sometime not even provide a good C&C, but only personal attack. I always thought that if I don't have any nice/positive thing to say, then I rather keep quiet. I agree that many FMers here are very helpful, and just like any big family, there will be some "black sheep" include, and more often than not, it's their own issue (you can see their pattern from their posts), so just ignore it.
The people of which you speak are an absolute but consistent minority. They dont just bitch about images they bitch full stop and look for any excuse to be negative. For these individuals the fight is more important than the point. Do not confuse these twats with the vast majority of FMers who are good, cool and highly funky individuals.
Mr. Malik wrote:
Cheers for bringing up this point...
We do have to remember though that sometimes CC can and must be harsh in order to get the point across and direct the person the right way. If we are all too friendly and "thoughtful" we may begin to refrain from providing honesty
agreed. i'd rather take harsh brutal honest advice instead of sugar coated," good jobs" when really, there's still alot of room for improvement in my craft.
Sometimes the level of courtesy here does drop a bit low, but it's still far higher than places like DPReview! I honestly don't post images here because my work is nowhere near as good as the average poster, but since joining I have learned a ton by studying the images posted and reading the many helpful replies so FM is still a valuable resource.
The 'saint' of FM would have to be SteadyHands, although his manner of posting is slowly being copied by others (and that is definitely a good thing).
Best,
Andy
I am well aware of the personal attack as some months ago, I was talking on gaining wedding business and received a nasty attack on my website. Ironically, i tracked down the person who said that, lived locally, and its all OK. Personally, I felt he should have taken Sam tran's advice and not said anything or be more tactful in levying a critique............when it was not even solicited.
Its not about harsh C&C. Its about juvenile behaviour and negativity. Besides you can offer harsh C&C without mocking the individual. Its not about sugar coating anything, its quite simple:
If you cant bag someones work without being mocking, patronising or abusive then you are either angry, insecure, inarticulate or all 3.
For some people its not about giving C&C, its about taking an opportunity to sure up their own insecurities.
People who are genuinely good at what they do, dont have the need to bring down others.
FWIW I have seen some of the worst comments come from people with the most mediocre portfolios.
I have never seen any of the 'rockstars' here attack anyone, have you?
I think that there is a nice constructive way to criticize and then there are ways that are just destructive.
When I set out to look at someone's work, I want to find the things I like about it first. If you comment through their strenghts first, then the criticism can be more easily digested.
Sam H. seems to understand this. Reading his comments on folk's work, I've noticed he always points out their strength. I think that is because at the root of it, Sam is still humble. There are others, less humble. And it seems like they want to find the negative before even looking for the positive.
The rest? Sometimes it feels close to high school here. Especially as a woman reading these forums. But then again, maybe it's the industry. Yesterday at the Javitz center I noticed a company advertising their product by having scantily clad women handing out cards.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
The fact that many don't see the benefits of respect and diplomacy is really surprising to me. People like to think that they are Simon Cowell and are doing everyone else a favor, but the truth is that in real life, these people are usually the turds in the punch bowl.
ding ding ding..... you know it -- if it weren't for their sorry cyber existence they would have anything. It’s not just at FM, either, I've seen it in a bunch of different genres online.
Andy Wood wrote:
I have been on this forum since 2003. Seen it go through a lot changes. I have noticed lately people are not being very thoughtful to others (part of the reason I am posting less). Whether its the person that just posted their first images or a veteran on the forum. Just because you think you are anonymous doesn't mean you are.
I would encourage people to be a little nicer. Be encouraging, be thoughtful, be inspiring. Just a thought. Anyone else notice this?
ill be the first to admit that i am a dick at times and a lot of you will agree. i will also admit i know what the hell i am doing and talking about most times but i too have stopped posting as much and actually havent been on here all summer because 1 i was too busy with weddings and portrait work and 2 i realized i dont wanna piss you all off anymore i wanna make friends and help you all so unless i have something good to say or something positive i am gonna try and keep my mouth shut.
i think a lot of the problem on here is people tend to be more open online and i bet in person half of the people on here would have the balls in real life as they do on here. also some people are good and their heads got too big and stuck in a bad place and now think they are super photogs.
but hey, people will do what they want be like they want. we cant change that. i bet if this because a pay service the shit would go away.
always the devil's advocate - i have to say sometimes we all just need to lighten the heck up.
sure, if someone is called a d-bag there aren't too many ways to interpret that, but choosing to accept criticism or respond to conversation with an open mind and not from a place of defensiveness and personal bias has a lot to do with the way threads progress - either productively or with crabby escalation. far too often people project their own grumpy angst when replying to relatively innocuous feedback.
Whether you are on the receiving end of what you THINK is replied to in a negative way, or you THINK you have a need to respond in a negative way. This is the internet where we post and reply via written words. Not many of us can express nice words. It takes to damn long to sugar coat and/or search for the right words. I read and move on.
Also, many get insulted and their feelings are hurt because someone doesn't like their work or a posted image. Don't post if you are not ready to be hammered to become better.
it all depends on the person i suppose. how theyare at taking in the good CC and letting go of the uncalled for CC.
these forum members seem like saints compared to the gaming forums i used to be a part of. - yes i'm a nerd...well i'd like to think,"i used to be a nerd."
and were seeking advice (maybe not here, but other mediums) and were lucky/grateful when they received. 
I honestly don't post images here because my work is nowhere near as good as the average poster, but since joining I have learned a ton by studying the images posted and reading the many helpful replies so FM is still a valuable resource.