Need help opening filter rings.

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Cableaddict
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p.1 #1 · Need help opening filter rings.

I recently got a "complete" set of tools for working on lenses.

I have attempted to get the filter rings off of three lenses, and so far have been completely stymied. I really need some help here!

I bought the hollow-rubber kit from Micro Tools, which covers 13 - 62mm. I didn't get the gum-rubber kit ( 13 - 90mm) because those are not hollow, and I didn't want to have to do all that extra work.

So here are my first three failures. All advice welcome:

Nikon 24/2.8 Ai-s - The ring won't budge. Should I spray some lube in there, then hope to clean it all off later?

Zeiss 85/1.4 - The largest ring-tool isn't large enough, and even if it were, the ring itself does not lay flat against the glass. There is no way to apply downward pressure on it. I see no slots for a wrench, and the front piece doesn't simply twist off. Huh?

Rokkor 58/1.2 - The ring is on the OUTSIDE, and much, much too large for this set of tools.
Even if I bought the gummed-rubber ones, There would be no way to use them. What has worked for others?

thanks.

Sep 15, 2009 at 09:36 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #2 · Need help opening filter rings.

Some photos are in order, as I actually don't understand what you mean when you say you are attempting to "remove the filter rings". On most lenses, there is a "name ring" that is threaded into the interior filter threads (of the front barrel). This "name ring" often holds the front element in, and then possibly other rings or assemblies are threaded into those same threads further back.

On the Rokkor, the "name ring" is not what needs to be removed. Rather, there are two fine rings on the inside of the filter threads that need to be removed. They have notches, so you can use one of these to remove it (spanner):

This image is copyrighted by the owner

I use a pair of small needlenose pliers that I filed to a point for this purpose. Simply adjust the pliers (or spanner) to fit in the slots and then (carefully) turn the ring.

For "name rings" which don't have slots, I have used a roll of cheap hockey tape. Simply remove enough tape from the roll so it fits, jam it against the "name ring" and then twist. The glue provides ample friction and can be cleaned up fairly easily later.

Edited on Sep 15, 2009 at 09:53 PM · View previous versions

Sep 15, 2009 at 09:47 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #3 · Need help opening filter rings.

BTW, I assumed above that you want to disassemble the lenses for cleaning?

Sep 15, 2009 at 09:52 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #4 · Need help opening filter rings.

Thanks.

The books I bought,, and also Micro Tools, refers to these "name rings" as "Filter Rings" so that's the terminology I used as well.

-but yeah, that's what I was referring to, exactly as you describe.

On the Rokkors, I do see four TINY slots, but they are right against the glass. I bought a deluxe wrench with five different tips, but I don't see how I'd get it in there without scratching the glass. Is there a trick?

I'll try the roll of tape with the Zeiss (sounds promising,thanks) but surely there is an actual tool for this?

Sep 15, 2009 at 09:55 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #5 · Need help opening filter rings.

Ahh, now I see. The notches you speak of are on TOP.

Thanks, Paul.

Man, it is DELICATE getting that second ring out! I'm glad now that I bought a good spanner & a head-loupe.
--------------

As long as I have your attention:

With the Rokkor's front assembly out, and its internal surface now clean, it still seems a bit hazy.
I think I should disassemble it for further cleaning. Is this a bad idea? Are those just tiny slotted screws on the side, (I bought an expensive set of Starrett micro drivers) or is this thing glued together? If no glue, should I expect loctite on the screws?

One more question, Paul. There are many opinions on this, but what is your personal preference for a final cleaning of the internal glass surfaces? I will use Ponds for the few fungal spores I see. After that, I have E2, 99% alcohol, hot breath & lens chamy, and of course soap & water.

Sep 15, 2009 at 10:01 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #6 · Need help opening filter rings.

With the Rokkor, I only removed the front element and cleaned all exposed surfaces. I did not dig deeper through the front. I then removed the entire rear group (by unscrewing it from the back) which allowed access through the aperture blades to the rear surface of the last element in the front group, and (of course) the front surface of the first element in the rear group. This was enough to get my Rokkor very clean, so I stopped there. I used Eclipse & Pec-Pads and then finished up with a lens pen.

Sep 15, 2009 at 10:59 PM

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p.1 #7 · Need help opening filter rings.

So you think that front assembly is epoxied together? I now see that the fungal spores are actually in the rear portion, so I could forgo this step. -But I still want to know.

Difficult due to glue or Loctite?
Dangerous due to possible misalignment?
Does anyone know?

BTW, Paul. The first lens I opened has been worked on before (someone really chewed up the screws.) Sadly, there are only 2 ball bearings inside. Are parts like micro ball bearings & screws available anywhere? (and how would you know what size to order?)

Sep 16, 2009 at 12:28 AM

cogitech
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p.1 #8 · Need help opening filter rings.

No, I don't think the front is epoxied or anything, I just didn't want to disassemble more than I needed to, so as to not get into a situation where I might not be able to get it back together and/or cause some problem with it.

Ball bearings inside? Do you mean the ones between the mount and the mount shim/base? You don't need them if you are converting it to EF.

Sep 16, 2009 at 02:37 AM

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p.1 #9 · Need help opening filter rings.

OK, thanks. - so I took another look and saw a THIRD set of slots. Those hold the front element into the assembly. Easy to remove with my extra tips shapes.

Glad I got it open, as there was definitely some haze in there, and seemingly some crusty fungal spores in the threads.

I did the following cleaning:

Bleach (to kill everything) -ponds - warm water &soap, 99% alcohol (to flush out the water) then after drying I used "formula MC" lens cleaner & Perc Pads, sold by Copper Hill. I think the Formula MC is similar to E2, but specifically sold for lenses. It worked great. The 2 lenses I did so far look perfect.
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About the bearings: I am cleaning six of these. I want the five I end up selling to be as close to stock as possible. (I guess) Haven't decided.

I also did not see ANY bearing pop out when I removed the aperture ring, from either of these 2 lenses. Maybe that's why the apertures didn't work on either, but more likely due to dirty blades, which I cleaned. Now I have to figure out where to put a bearing. I have your tutorial saved, but it's hard to see what the deal is with this part. Grrr....

Sep 16, 2009 at 05:57 AM

pengland
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p.1 #10 · Need help opening filter rings.

The aperture ring has a series of detents. If you hold the aperture ring relative to the position as it would be installed and look on the body directly below the ring area with the detents you will find a tiny hole that hopefully has a tiny spring in it. When you reinstall the aperture ring place a dab of lens grease right on top of the spring/hole and place the ball bearing on top of that. Don't use a magnetic screwdriver for this because you won't be easily able to "land" the ball bearing. Instead use a very tiny dab of grease on the screwdriver tip to stick the ball bearing on and transfer it to the spring/hole. When you are about to install the aperture ring start it in on the opposite side of the body to the spring/hole. It will be now sitting at an angle. Slowly move the ring down towards the ball bearing until it just touches. Use a small flat screwdriver to the press the ball bearing down into the hole against the spring pressure while also gently persuading the aperture ring down onto its land. The ball bearing should have passed under the aperture ring edge and be sitting safely against the spring on one side and a corresponding detent on the inner diameter of the aperture ring.

Sep 16, 2009 at 07:31 PM

JimBuchanan
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p.1 #11 · Need help opening filter rings.

cogitech wrote:
This "name ring" often holds the front element in, and then possibly other rings or assemblies are threaded into those same threads further back.

On the Rokkor, the "name ring" is not what needs to be removed. Rather, there are two fine rings on the inside of the filter threads that need to be removed. They have notches, so you can use one of these to remove it (spanner):

OK, I'm confused. If you want to infinity adjust, you remove the "name ring".
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/748982/0?keyword=conversion#6820115

Rather than unscrew the two fine rings on the inside of the filter threads, just unscrew the 3 screws on that barrel and the whole front filter piece comes off, if thats what you want to do.

I've never seen a "name ring" hold a front element in. The filter ring does not hold the front element in on a Rokkor 58.

Sep 16, 2009 at 09:00 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #12 · Need help opening filter rings.

He's not trying to adjust infinity.

The two fine rings on the inner portion of the filter threads do hold the front element in. It did on all 13 Rokkors that I worked on.

The name rings on my Vivitar 28/2s (Komine and Kiron), along with my Zuiko 24-40/f4, all hold in either the front element alone or a front assembly of elements, as far as i can recall.

Sep 16, 2009 at 09:09 PM

JimBuchanan
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p.1 #13 · Need help opening filter rings.

cogitech wrote:
He's not trying to adjust infinity.

The two fine rings on the inner portion of the filter threads do hold the front element in. It did on all 13 Rokkors that I worked on.

But he will be adjusting infinity, and will therefore need to remove the ID ring. Unless, the sand and test reductive method is used for infinity adjustment.

Unfortunately, the piece that includes the filter threads is not included in this photo:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

But, the glass, in the upper right corner with the reflection, is the front lens assembly. This front lens assembly has retaining rings holding the elements intact and is screwed into the aperture cup shown in the lower left. If you look closely, you can see one of the slots in the ring at about 7 o'clock where the reflection is.

The front piece, with filter rings is not needed to keep the front element from falling out.

I don't have my notes with me, but I've completely disassembled way more than 13 Rokkor 58/1.2 lenses.

Sep 16, 2009 at 10:23 PM

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p.1 #14 · Need help opening filter rings.

pengland wrote:
The aperture ring has a series of detents. If you hold the aperture ring relative to the position as it would be installed and look on the body directly below the ring area with the detents you will find a tiny hole that hopefully has a tiny spring in it. When you reinstall the aperture ring place a dab of lens grease right on top of the spring/hole and place the ball bearing on top of that. Don't use a magnetic screwdriver for this because you won't be easily able to "land" the ball bearing. Instead use a very tiny dab of grease on the screwdriver tip .

Thanks. I did find the hole. The tiny bearing (taken from the other section keeps falling out. It's definitely too small. Well, unless the spring is missing, which I guess would be even worse. Ughh.

BTW - To hold & place the bearing, I used a plastic screw-retrieval tweezer that I bought from Micro tools. -Best $2 I ever spent. It has ridges on the inside edges, and holds the bearings easily.

Sep 16, 2009 at 10:45 PM

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p.1 #15 · Need help opening filter rings.

cogitech wrote:
The two fine rings on the inner portion of the filter threads do hold the front element in. It did on all 13 Rokkors that I worked on. .

To be clear, (for anyone contemplating this for the first time) there are THREE rings accessible from the front, not two. After the first is removed, You can next remove EITHER of the next two. One holds the front lens assembly in place, and the other holds the lens assembly TOGETHER. If you unscrew THAT one (the innermost one) the front glass will fall right out.

This is dangerous, to say the least, so be careful. I also recommend, if you plan to open the front lens assembly as I did, to get a good spanner with interchangeable tips. Using a pointed tip here (the innermost ring) would be very dangerous, and possibly even impossible. I assume this is why Paul didn't go near that third ring.

cogitech wrote:
He's not trying to adjust infinity. .

Correct, though I will certainly be following Jim's infinity-adjustment guidelines once everything else is done.

Sep 16, 2009 at 10:56 PM

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p.1 #16 · Need help opening filter rings.

JimBuchanan wrote:
I've never seen a "name ring" hold a front element in. The filter ring does not hold the front element in on a Rokkor 58.

It would be great to come up with an absolute, standardized nomenclature for this stuff. Sadly, we could probably have no luck getting retail stores to go along. I like "name ring" as it can't be confused with anything else. Micro tools should rename those rubber ring tools "Name Ring Stoppers" or some such.

So, what would constitute a "filter ring?"

What do we call the threaded rings that are removed with a spanner?

Edited on Sep 17, 2009 at 05:02 AM · View previous versions

Sep 16, 2009 at 10:59 PM

pengland
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p.1 #17 · Need help opening filter rings.

I would refer to them as element retaining rings. I'm not sure how lens manufacturers refer to them though.

Sep 16, 2009 at 11:19 PM

JimBuchanan
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p.1 #18 · Need help opening filter rings.

Yes, there you have it, you say "name ring", I say "ID ring". I chose that term because I've heard it said by lens repair shops and read it in manuals. Either is OK, but, yes it is confusing.

My effort in this thread is to help anyone out of hot water in the area of lens repair, and not to perpetuate a pissing contest on who knows more about the Rokkor 58/1.2.

The problem with said pissing contest might follow the same confusion of the name ring/ID ring nomenclature, mentioned. That and the fact that cogitech may not have the knowledge of Rokkor 58/1.2 construction that he thinks he has.

Pictured is going from right to left, the body (with aperture range and bronze part), the brass ring (Allan's back piece (brass, with short threads, I think), then the wide aluminum threads, and finally the "black piece" that has the e55 threads. Here there is a filter screwed on. Under that is I believe 2 retaining rings, removeable with spanner wrench. If they are removed then the retainer ring of the first element is accessable. But, as I said this retainer ring is part of the lens assembly and not the "black piece".

If you look at the photo, there is a blurry screw going into the side of the "black piece" on the left. That is one of 3 screws, which when unscrewed, will release the entire "black piece", which again, has the filter threads. The threaded rings under the filter threads are for securing and squaring the piece to the lens.

I would suggest this be removed, as infinity focus adjustment doesn't need this piece in place and should be screwed back on as a last step. Yes, at that point a spanner wrench can be used to snug the black piece to the body.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

I am refraining from entering into the pissing contest that has been implied about Rokkor 58/1.2 knowledge, for now.

Allan, I will be glad to devote phone time, this weekend, and help you thru the any issues with the Rokkor 58/1.2 build. But, lets take this offline.

Sep 17, 2009 at 03:37 AM

m-a-x
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p.1 #19 · Need help opening filter rings.

Maybe some help: I was able to open all lenses so far with the help of either rubber coated gloves (with thick rubber coating), or the two thin extensions on a caliper gauge.
I find myself, this doesn't sound very professional, but it works and I never scratched or damaged anything.
Regards, Alex

Sep 17, 2009 at 07:42 AM

cogitech
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p.1 #20 · Need help opening filter rings.

JimBuchanan wrote:

I don't have my notes with me, but I've completely disassembled way more than 13 Rokkor 58/1.2 lenses.

^ = "pissing contest"

Cableaddict, did removing the two fine rings allow the front element to be removed, or didn't they?

Of course it did. (Just like on every other Rokkor, and that's all I was saying).

Good luck with it.

Sep 17, 2009 at 11:26 AM

JimBuchanan
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p.1 #21 · Need help opening filter rings.

For future reference to all that wish to remove the front element of the Rokkor 58/1.2, for cleaning, I suggest that the 3 screws on the side of the front filter threaded piece be removed, so the piece can be removed. Then, you only have one retainer ring on the lens assembly itself that holds the front element in.

Furthermore, if one wanted to remove the front lens assembly for cleaning the inner surface, versus going thru the back end to get to the front thru the open aperture blades, then this piece must be removed. Then, the front lens assembly simply unscrews just like the rear assembly will unscrew.

Its the easier way, and should be know by any self described expert.

Sep 17, 2009 at 12:55 PM

cogitech
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p.1 #22 · Need help opening filter rings.

JimBuchanan wrote:

Its the easier way, and should be know by any self described expert.

There you go again Jim, sticking to your modus operandi.

At no point, ever, have I claimed to be an expert. All I did was describe my method, which avoids the complicated situation that the OP finds himself in now.

I'll leave it to the experts (like you, of course) to help him get out of that situation.

Sep 17, 2009 at 01:28 PM

pengland
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p.1 #23 · Need help opening filter rings.

Hmmmm.....not sure what the "pissing contest" is about.

As far as I am concerned we have a number of people giving up their time to try to help out someone starting out with their own lens repairs. I believe the Op, as I, respects the opinions of all that have taken the time to help him or tried to help him as he continues to learn.

Sep 17, 2009 at 02:42 PM

JimBuchanan
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p.1 #24 · Need help opening filter rings.

The OP wants to remove the name ring of the Rokkor 58/1.2. Here is your advice:

cogitech wrote:
On the Rokkor, the "name ring" is not what needs to be removed. Rather, there are two fine rings on the inside of the filter threads that need to be removed. They have notches, so you can use one of these to remove it (spanner):

This is erroneous, and does not serve the OPs goals of understanding the Rokkor lens. The external name ring needs to be removed to get to the 3 screws that hold the filter ring piece on, the 4 infinity adjustment screws, to unscrew the front lens assembly, and remove the entire aperture cup, if needed.

If you mean, there I go again, pointing out inaccurate advice just because it is coming from you, then your wrong. I'm just pointing out inaccurate advice.

Sep 17, 2009 at 02:54 PM

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p.1 #25 · Need help opening filter rings.

C,mon, fellas, play nice!

As pengland wrote, everyone here is trying to help me, and I greatly appreciate it. This is a very difficult subject to discuss. We're all on the same team here, and we're all still learning things as we go.
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Paul, yes the front lens assembly can be removed after unscrewing two of the three retaining rings, but it has to be the correct two.
-----------------------

Jim, regarding the three side screws that hold the front "hood-like" piece: THERE MAY BE DIFFERENCES IN VARIOUS VERSIONS:

On the two 58/1.2's I've opened so far, which are both early ones (ser 250xxx) you cannot get to those screws until the front assembly is removed. Additionally, I completely disassembled these two lenses, without ever removing the name rings. I can even see the infinity-stop screws.

I have a feeling (not sure yet, of course) that these versions are mechanically different from the later ones, which may account for more than a little of the confusion here. (I see a related question on your infinity-adjust routine, but will address that later, when I'm sure)

I have four of the later ones as well. As soon as I have a chance, I will open one of those, and see if indeed there are differences, and report here.

-And thanks for your offer of phone help. I may indeed call you this weekend to discuss.
----------------------

So, no more bunched panties, fellas.

Again my thanks to you all.

.

Edited on Sep 17, 2009 at 07:16 PM · View previous versions

Sep 17, 2009 at 05:54 PM


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