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Archive 2009 · Tripod heads

jamesf99
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p.3 #1 · Tripod heads

justruss wrote:
The rabid anti-Benro thing is a bit bizarre. A single, old review of a single product from a single product line, and all of a sudden the company makes totally inferior products and will never improve?

All of their heads are "pot metal' on the inside, and everything about the company is a facade?

Give me a break.

There are plenty of very good reviews of Benro products. And, in fact, when I went to B&H looking for a lightweight, compact, stable tripod, guess what brand they directed me to? Benro. What about when I told them that the difference in price between the Benro and the Gitzo didn't matter, and that I had almost decided on the Gitzo (which I was holding)... they still pointed me to Benro.

Give me a break is right. You're were directed toward a high margin, high profit product and you think that has anything to do with quality or value? You're kidding right?

And when I bought the Benro, and had questions about replacement parts and buying accessories for the tripod, guess who responded to my emails quickly-- and engaged in a nice back and forth discussion: the Mac Group Benro product manager.

Not sure where you live, but I know the sales manager for the MAC group here in New England... So if you want to tell me about the "quality" of Benro products, I'm all ears or eyes...

After all that, I'm not going to recommend the Benro head in this case, while it would probably be fine. I think you should check out a Photo Clam, which are rated for very heavy weights, have had great reviews, and seem like a wonderful product.

The needless bashing of a product that one hasn't used, or the bashing of a whole brand and all future models based on a single model, is childish. I mean, there aren't stories about Gitzos failing in horrendous ways (like legs breaking, loose screws, etc)...

I'll admit that no product is perfect and I never claimed any were. Suggesting my perspective is childish because I see behind the facade does little more than confirm your gullibility and naivete. Do I need to own a GM car to know that they are, and have been for 30+ years, pieces of @#@#? The bottom finally fell out of the rotten apple cart. What a surprise. Here's another surprise. They've finally admitted they made absolute c@ap. Gosh, I never knew that..

Induro is re-badged "retail" version of the the ebay Benro stuff for those that don't know. I don't need to own a Benro/Induro product to confirm the impression I formed when they were first imported to this country, and that's long before they were sold at B&H, Adorama, etc. and probably before you knew they existed.. I've seen the inside of the heads. I've seen the quality and held several, as parts fell off in my hands. I'm able to read the specs to compare features (Benro/Induro is not competitive on weight/strength), Enough users have related negative experiences for me to interpret what those things mean. Feel free to interpret them differently

I'd assume MAC is making a lot of money on this, as are the retailers that steer gulible people to high profit items. A Benro/Induro at 40%-50% of Gitzo prices? Maybe.... A Benro/Induro at 80%-90% of Gitzo prices? I don't think so... Sometimes a Chinese rip off is just a Chinese rip off...

Jul 26, 2009 at 12:56 PM

justruss
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p.3 #2 · Tripod heads

I'm in NYC.

I'll save most of this for another thread, but, a few points:

Mac Group carries great brands, like: Leaf, Mamiya, Eizo, Sekonic, Profoto, etc. I find it interesting that Mac Group would sully their reputation by starting to import total crap if that's what Benro/Induro is.

I'm not sure what information you're using to claim that Benro/Induro are owned by the same company that makes dynatran, flashpoint, or whatever other brands you claim. I can point out notable differences in engineering and models, including the "upgrade" thread you mentioned.

I'm not sure what firsthand evidence you have that everything that Benro/Induro make and will make in the future is trash, or that they all have engineering flaws. I've seen that same, old tripod head breakdown. And I have seen and met people with Gitzo legs that have broken off with normal use (it's by no means the standard, but it happens, like, you said, with all companies).

I find it funny that people ascribe to a country the size of China, with one fifth of the world's population, a single business culture. That shows naivete. People used to say the same thing about products coming out of Japan.

I'll post a review of a Benro tripod shortly-- including a specs comparison with Gitzo and Feisol, and a leg breakdown-- so I'll keep this to a minimum. As I said in my first post: for a ballhead, I think the Photo Clam is something interesting to look at, but as someone who has done a lot of first hand comparison, I think that Benro does make a product (I won't say all they have ever made or will continue to make) that is worth considering. Hell, as ballheads are concerned, I don't actually think Gitzo is very compelling at all; while I do think Gitzo legs are great.

Jul 26, 2009 at 01:59 PM

Smiert Spionam
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p.3 #3 · Tripod heads

I suspect Amvona buys whatever is cheap. They'll probably put their name on anything. The Amvona/Dynatran head I bought, though, was absolutely, positively identical to Induro/Benro. Firsthand.

China has lots of different business cultures, and plenty of good stuff is made in China. Unfortunately, some of the world's worst stuff comes from there, too -- it's the site of choice for cheap-at-all-costs garbage that would be shut down for patent violations virtually anywhere else in the industrialized world. THAT is the particular business culture that I'm talking about, and it thrives in China. The matter of Chinese environmental and labor conditions is also troubling, but not really germane to this conversation.

My expectations about Benro's future quality come from their past performance. They're not trustworthy.

Jul 26, 2009 at 02:15 PM

justruss
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p.3 #4 · Tripod heads

Smiert Spionam wrote:
I suspect Amvona buys whatever is cheap. They'll probably put their name on anything. The Amvona/Dynatran head I bought, though, was absolutely, positively identical to Induro/Benro. Firsthand.

China has lots of different business cultures, and plenty of good stuff is made in China. Unfortunately, some of the world's worst stuff comes from there, too -- it's the site of choice for cheap-at-all-costs garbage that would be shut down for patent violations virtually anywhere else in the industrialized world. THAT is the particular business culture that I'm talking about, and it thrives in China. The matter of Chinese environmental and labor conditions is also troubling, but not really germane to this conversation.

My expectations about Benro's future quality come from their past performance. They're not trustworthy.

Amvona is not a manufacturer, they're a retailer. They're based in Massachusetts. They sell Dynatran tripods-- as Dynatran tripods. They have a decent "About Us" page.

http://www.amvona.com/about

As far as I know, Dynatran does not have a set-screw to hold the center column ballhead mounting mechanism in place... hence the "upgrade" thread on here. At least one Benro model does (I own it).

There's plenty of misinformation out there.

Jul 26, 2009 at 03:19 PM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #5 · Tripod heads

I believe that there was a press release from MAC that Induro was Benro made. The claim they did make though was that it was an "all new design." Probably because they were worried about patent infringement because some of the parts were identical to Gitzo parts (interchangeable). I never did the comparison to Benro branded vs Induro branded, but I'd be surprised if there was much (if any) difference other than the stickers.

These arguments never end because the industry doesn't have common methods for testing to specs. That needs to happen because until it does, someone has to take them all and test them and it's hard to do. That means that the majority of decisions are made by those who buy them based on the paint job of the tripod or head and not on its actual performance. As well further confusing the situaton, it is possible to get a good - even fantastic result - out of the biggest piece of garbage tripod/head in the absence of vibration. That, however, is the one case that is a complete don't care in tripod evaluation.

If you read the study done by Markins and the Leica test of tripods, you can really see how impossible it is to evaluate a tripod and head by inspection.

Markins paper: http://markins.com/charlie/report4e6.pdf
Leica Mag article: http://www.giottos.com/News-MT-awards.htm

I did some testing of tripods using a similar methodology to Leica's and I found huge variation in performance between brands of tripods leading me to believe that design and materials are hugely important to the execution of the design. I haven't tested a Benro but would be happy to do so if someone sent me one.

For sure, Benro has been caught out playing the game of a great paint job covering up some serious issues inside. The infamous Tom Webster article details that for sure. Do they continue to do the same thing? Who knows? Is it worth the risk to put money into a company that makes products that are hard to verify in their performance (quantitatively) if they have a checkered past? That's for each to decide - my vote is to not do that. I've already done my tripod spending the hard way - buying stuff that didn't work great before I bought the good stuff. I'm not rich enough to buy the questionable stuff. I would be richer had I not done that too.

Tom Webster article: http://www.tomwebsterphoto.com/Essays/Benro/benroks2.htm

The Asian tripod supplier that has impressed me is Feisol. They continue to upgrade their products, they do their own engineering (not knock offs) and they have great customer service. I'm admittedly impressed with Gitzo, but Feisol has some traveler tripods that have really caught my eye and have me interested.

J.

Jul 26, 2009 at 03:44 PM

justruss
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p.3 #6 · Tripod heads

I'm not questioning that Benro and Induro are made by the same manufacturer (or that one owns the other). That seems clear via their marketing and service teams.

Take a look at my review of the C-068m8 Travel Angel I just posted on this board:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/797199

Jul 26, 2009 at 03:45 PM

Mirek Elsner
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p.3 #7 · Tripod heads

I have the RRS BH-55. The action is not exactly silky-smooth, but not a significant problem for recomposing with lenses I use, i.e. up to 300mm. The overall craftsmanship is excellent. I had a chance to play with ArcaTech and Kirk and I think it is only a matter of personal taste and your particular needs which one you choose. I don't have experience with any other serious contenders, sorry.

I would never buy Benro, but my reasons are not photographic.

Jul 26, 2009 at 10:00 PM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #8 · Tripod heads

justruss wrote:
I'm not questioning that Benro and Induro are made by the same manufacturer (or that one owns the other). That seems clear via their marketing and service teams.

Take a look at my review of the C-068m8 Travel Angel I just posted on this board:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/797199

I appreciate your review, it was well done.

Simultaneously it also exhibits the whole problem (and it's not a criticism of your review). Your review centers on the fit, finish and appearance of the tripod - all things which have little, if any bearing on the performance of this tripod. There are no performance measurements, no measurement of the ability of the tripod to damp vibration, no rigidity measurements on the spider or leg locks etc... There is no measurement or evaluation on the percent of CF fiber to epoxy in the legs (for example). All these things matter much more than what you reviewed and should be inherent in specifications and their underlying industry standard test methods (which do not exist).

My concerns would be with the leg bolts as you mentioned, the leg locks for rigidity etc... Since we are trying to damp out vibration that are on the order of 100um amplitudes - too small for you to see or sense - we really don't know any more about the performance of this tripod than when we started. These things could be quite significant in tripod performance and vibration damping.

J.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:21 PM

justruss
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p.3 #9 · Tripod heads

JohnJ80 wrote:
I appreciate our review, it was well done.

Simultaneously it also exhibits the whole problem (and it's not a criticism of your review). Your review centers on the fit, finish and appearance of the tripod - all things which have little, if any bearing on the performance of this tripod. There are no performance measurements, no measurement of the ability of the tripod to damp vibration, no rigidity measurements on the spider or leg locks etc... There is no measurement or evaluation on the percent of CF fiber to epoxy in the legs (for example). All these things matter much more than what you reviewed and should be inherent in specifications and their underlying industry standard test methods (which do not exist).

My concerns would be with the leg bolts as you mentioned, the leg locks for rigidity etc... Since we are trying to damp out vibration that are on the order of 100um amplitudes - too small for you to see or sense - we really don't know any more about the performance of this tripod than when we started. These things could be quite significant in tripod performance and vibration damping.

J.

I agree with you John that we need some kind of standardized testing for tripod vibration damping.

Outside of a very few number of tests (I've read them; Leica, for instance, and a few people who repeated similar experiments with lasers or accelerometers), all we have at this point is using the gear we're talking about and reporting what we find.

You'll notice that I actually did discuss stability, with different lenses, in different positions. Not only that, but I clearly set out limits: I said that the 5D + 135L combo was not ideal with the tripod fully extended and the camera at a deep angle. I'm not making any far-out claims when I said that this was stable with 5D + 35L and that it was clearly a niche product. I tried out the Gitzos and found them comparable. The 1550 actually felt less stable. I did not try the Feisol... since I didn't have one to put my hands on.

The whole review is NOT about fit and finish. And I did take apart the legs, and did the best I could (without doing analysis of the materials using some fancy technology) to judge the workmanship, material consistency, and precision of the parts. Those are not simply fit and finish questions.

But, I'll stand by what I said: Benro wouldn't be the first place I look for a ballhead (I'd like to replace mine with something else). Nor would Gitzo for this matter. Check out Photo Clam. And of course, Markins and RRS are also both wonderful.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:31 PM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #10 · Tripod heads

You're making my case for me.

You see, you can't tell how the 5D plus 135L is functioning in the presence of a vibration of known amplitude that matters. The mfgs won't tell you and it's hard to test. You, and almost every photographer out, thinks they can but they simply can't sense these levels of image softening vibration without applying a known stimulus and measuring. The mfgs ought to do that but don't. The closest that they come is that Gitzo will specify a max focal length for an "acceptable sharp" image. Whatever that means (they don't say). However that is a better guide than anyone else.

Saying it is stable means what? It doesn't fall over? One couldn't observe any vibration with the naked eye(that would be orders of magnitude more than it would take to ruin an image)? You see, that's the point and what matters and you are not able to discuss it through no fault of your own. To put it in context, the vibration you see compared to the vibration levels at which the image suffers is like dropping 3/4 tons from 100' up into the back of a 3/4 ton Chevy pickup truck and wondering why the tires blew because they are supposed to be ok with a load in the back. It's a several order of magnitude (i.e. powers of 10) difference.

So then someone uses (pick one) tripod and gets a good image out of it, heck even a great one. Then to them that becomes full justification for the supposed magnificent performance of the tripod they reviewed even though it is a bona fide P.O.S. Only problem was that (suppose) there was no vibration for the tripod to damp. Then the arguments begin and we go round and round about this stuff.

This whole thing is a game of microns. So when someone tells me that the leg bolts maybe need tightening or it now feels looser, that is a red flag for me. At that point, I really, really want to see some good performance data before a device is blessed as "stable" under a wide range of conditions.

I've done the actual testing with lasers, and I found huge differences between brands and models in performance even with my crude testing. So, I tend to be skeptical and I tend to buy the top end stuff because of that same testing.

That all said, vis a vis your review, the weakest part of Gitzo's line are the travel tripods and the most room for the competition.

J.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:40 PM

justruss
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p.3 #11 · Tripod heads

No John, saying it is stable means I took test images and compared at 100%. That's what it means. It had nothing to do with "sensing" vibrations. That included indoors with induced vibration via multiple ways and places on the tripod (twisting, applying force to a leg, etc), outdoors (less controlled) in medium conditions (not heavy wind, not still), with MLU and without MLU. And at various angle with the ballhead.

And if you read it carefully, you'll notice where I said mentioned the gear I was using (light, mostly wide angle), the conditions it would be acceptable under (not very window or tough conditions), and the tripod extension (more stable, obviously, at lower extension).

Not only that, but I described how it would be used, what the forces for the purchase were, etc. This is, I believe, far more useful that saying that X tripod is great. It's being far more specific. It's matching specific uses with specific gear to specific comments about stability.

Edited on Jul 26, 2009 at 11:58 PM · View previous versions

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:49 PM

justruss
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p.3 #12 · Tripod heads

And I don't think you read the part where I said that I loosened the leg bolts... I didn't have to tighten them. Opposite.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:50 PM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #13 · Tripod heads

justruss wrote:
No John, saying it is stable means I took test images and compared at 100%. That's what it means. It had nothing to do with "sensing" vibrations.

Exactly. So you don't know anything about its ability to damp vibration because you don't know anything about the vibration stimulus that may or may not have been present. You know nothing further about its stability other than that it held the camera up successfully.

I rest my case.

J.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:54 PM

justruss
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p.3 #14 · Tripod heads

Please read the edited comment for clarificaton.

I think you're being difficult here, and unwilling to consider a genuine attempt at sussing out the product.

Jul 26, 2009 at 11:57 PM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #15 · Tripod heads

I guess we don't agree then.

I don't see a material difference in the description of the performance, it isn't a criticism directed toward you but toward the mfgs who don't really tell us about their products and you really should not be expected to have to drag out your laser to test it all. At the end of the day, we still don't know much about how this tripod performs (and is true of most other tripod reviews as well).

J.

Jul 27, 2009 at 12:03 AM

davidearls
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p.3 #16 · Tripod heads

Acratech Long Lens head for long lenses. Solid, light, compact. Not floppy side-to-side unless you want it to be.

For precision work, Manfrotto 410 geared head. If you haven't introduced precision into your photography yet, you migfht want to give it a try.

Jul 27, 2009 at 12:11 AM

justruss
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p.3 #17 · Tripod heads

JohnJ80 wrote:
I guess we don't agree then.

I don't see a material difference in the description of the performance, it isn't a criticism directed toward you but toward the mfgs who don't really tell us about their products and you really should not be expected to have to drag out your laser to test it all. At the end of the day, we still don't know much about how this tripod performs (and is true of most other tripod reviews as well).

J.

Look, we agree one one point: that manufacturers-- or someone in the industry-- needs to have a standardized measure for stability, based on multiple types of disturbance.

That said, I find it odd that such specific comments on goals, gear used, set-up, and outcomes is construed as not enough information for the Benro, but when people simple say "Oh, that Gitzo 1550t or 1541t is stable and makes great pics" that seems to pass muster.

So at the end of the day we still don't know how the Gitzo 1541t performs?

Of course we do. We know it based on those who have used it and reported back on here and elsewhere what lens/camera combinations worked and under what conditions.

And that's what my review was supposed to add to the discussion... that information for a Benro tripod, written from a fairly neutral perspective (Sure, I own it, but only after comparing multiple brands, and thinking it through for a few months; check my posting history).

Jul 27, 2009 at 12:12 AM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #18 · Tripod heads

All of those reviews on Gitzo products have similar problems. This is not a Benro vs Gitzo argument that you seem to imply it is. Good review on the physical attributes, fit and finish, broad generalities with little to none on specific actual performance. Your review suffers the same problems as most of the others in terms of the performance issue - which it would seem to me to be the most important of all. That said, unless you want to invest in serious testing - which is not a reasonable expectation (and is because of the shameful specification methodologies of the mfgs) - we do not know how this tripod (or the others) perform. Claiming that it works well is not supported in any review where there is specific testing based on a known input and measured output (i.e. image quality). It does, however as you point out, look great.

From my own testing, I'd say that Gitzo is the most conservative in their specifications and sort of becomes the gold standard for that. I did verify that the specs on Gitzo's tripods in terms of focal length were right on in the sense that a Series 2 was able to dampen about 1/2 the vibration amplitude that a Series 3 could. That largely corresponds with their specs. Nobody else specifies their products that tightly (it's a shame) and I didn't go and test them to get those specs for them either.

Who knows? Maybe I spend too much on tripods because of this. But after what I learned after doing the testing to satisfy myself and to learn something, I don't see the risk/reward in pursuing tripods with unknown performance and choose to err on the side of safety. The incremental dollars saved are just not worth it for me against the risk.

Good discussion here on this.

The subject of performance is traveler tripods is quite open. There has been no known testing that I know of. The only real but broad guidelines to go with are, again, the focal length specs that Gitzo puts out.

J.

Jul 27, 2009 at 12:59 AM

justruss
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p.3 #19 · Tripod heads

So John, all we have are you, Leica, and a guy who works for Markins to base our tripod buying decisions on?

I'd prefer to have actual data (I have a B.S. in physics, I like data), but we don't. I disagree with you that we don't know how Gitzo and other tripods work simply because we lack specific numbers. What we have are collected experiences-- and we use that. Specific numbers give us objective measures with which to compare two pieces of gear. But those numbers are intended to get us to a functional outcome: under what conditions can I use X and Y and Z and get a sharp result. "Sharp" and "moderately windy" and "steep angles" are blurry terms, but they differentiate use. And the frequency of a vibration itself means nothing if it doesn't apply to a result.

This is photography after all. It's about making photographs that people can look at.

And when we purchase gear and use it, we see the results, right? I didn't buy the tripod just to buy it. I bought it to use it. To solve a specific problem that I needed or wanted solved. So if it doesn't work, doesn't satisfy what I need it to do... than what's my reason for keeping it (or misleading people about how well or not well it works)?. Same for everyone else who buys a tripod. Or anyone who buys a lens for that matter: if it doesn't work, most of us toss it (or sell it), and try something else. When someone uses a piece of gear, tells me how he or she used it, and tells me how well it worked for his or her needs-- that information helps me make future buying decisions.

I think others looking to buy a similar, ultra light tripod will take away some usage information when I describe 135L as the limit of what I would comfortably use on the setup-- and that I'd prefer to shoot with shorter lenses. Now, maybe I have such low standards of sharpness and vibration dampening that my information is useless, but that's why multiple opinions are useful. I'd love to read more reviews of this particular Benro, the three Gitzos I mentioned, and the Feisol-- with the same degree of information about what lenses worked, under what conditions, given what setup.

Not sure why you think this isn't useful information about how the product WORKS. Oh well, just trying to add a data point, however incomplete. Of course, that's the difference between physics and math: physics, even the theoretical side of the equation, is all about estimation, sloppiness, and trying to work with the information that is available-- while trying to push for better precision.

Jul 27, 2009 at 01:42 AM

JohnJ80
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p.3 #20 · Tripod heads

Despite my repeated assurances to the contrary, it appears you've take this personally. I certainly meant no sarcasm or offense.

I don't agree with your rationalizations and I guess we disagree at a quite large level on this (which is all wall and fine as far as I'm concerned). All I know, and all I can possible advocate, is what I have done to figure this out. If you are comfortable not doing the same that is entirely your business and, in truth, I don't really care. For me, I wanted to know what I didn't know and I think I've done that (certainly to my satisfaction) but YMMV.

The one thing on which we do agree is that I'd like to see more quantitative reviews of the performance of these traveler tripods. I'm in the market and I want to know which truly performs best.

I think that about covers it without further restating.

J.

Jul 27, 2009 at 01:58 AM

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