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Archive 2009 · Employer gets a free photographer?

ian watstein
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p.2 #1 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I am a teacher, my principle knows I have the equipment and skills (i have used them for my own class many times). I have been asked a number of times to shoot events and the like. I finally got the idea that I would bring up my insurance issues... specifically that, as an hobbits, my camera isn't insured for business uses. To this end, bringing it to work would violate my insurance; something I am not willing to do with several thousand in equipment.
I made the offer that, should he pay for the insurance I would continue working with it at school... he declined so I no longer get asked to shoot school events.

Jun 16, 2009 at 06:54 PM

mkweaver
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p.2 #2 · Employer gets a free photographer?

ian watstein: Good point about the insurance for an amateur and pro. Any prudent business person wants an insurance hedge against accidents involving said equipment!

Jun 16, 2009 at 07:40 PM

henryp
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p.2 #3 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Erik Moore wrote:My day job is as a software programmer. My employer knows that I am a serious hobbyist photographer on the side.

For decades my day job was a professional photographer. I never poached on a software programmer's turf and none ever poached on mine. IMO the kindest and wisest thing you could do would be to suggest your employer hire a professional photographer for his professional photography needs just as he's hired a professional software programmer for his software programming needs.

My opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video

Jun 16, 2009 at 08:10 PM

jefferies1
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p.2 #4 · Employer gets a free photographer?

After you set your value as a "free" photographer it is hard to charge without someone being upset and I would not want to bite the hand that feeds me. I would turn down the job and say you do not have the experience for professional level portraits.
Most likely management assumes they pay you to do whatever they want done and its no big deal to bring a camera to work since you did it already. Why pay extra when you are on the clock anyway.
I can see a lot of hard feelings from this. Be careful.

Jun 16, 2009 at 09:33 PM

Todd Warnke
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p.2 #5 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I am an IT guy with good camera gear and do some shoots on the side. My solution when my main employer approached me to take some kid shots at a Christmas company benefit was "sure, but nothing else". When I was next asked to take some headshots for the website my answer was pretty straightforward - "I'm glad you're interested, but I'm really not qualified to take those". When they protested that my lighting gear was good enough (it is, I use on the side for this type of work), and that the kid holiday shots were wonderful (they were) and so I was qualified, I said, "glad you like 'em, but I do kids better than adults and I don't want to disappoint anyone, myself included. You're better off with a pro". They still occasionally ask me to do special on-offs, but they understand when I say no and are grateful when I say yes, and so usualy compensate me with a day off or somehting like that when I do take the shot.

Peace,

Todd

Jun 17, 2009 at 06:18 PM

kabhatti
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p.2 #6 · Employer gets a free photographer?

When my employer wishes to use my services as a photographer, I simply take the time off and do it on my own time with my own equipment. The subject of payment needs to come up before you agree to do the work, and that's easier said then done.

Jun 17, 2009 at 07:16 PM

henryp
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p.2 #7 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Todd Warnke wrote: When they protested that my lighting gear was good enough...

My point exactly. Thank you. Owning the finest equipment possible is not a substitute for knowing how to accomplish the task at hand.

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video

Jun 17, 2009 at 07:30 PM

paulhodson
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p.2 #8 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Not read the posts - but - are you going to post process - if so when and where?

Jun 19, 2009 at 04:37 PM

ESC in KC
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p.2 #9 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Erik Moore wrote:
That was my instinct as well, but now I'm just kinda wondering how to approach the topic without ruffling any feathers. Still not sure what I'm going to do- raise the topic, or just suck it up and shoot. Thanks everyone, for your angles and experiences.

I am a "boss" and will offer this perspective: If you treat it like the business transaction that it actually is, versus worrying about feelings and emotions, AND, if the boss is a professionally-minded business person, it is a win-win for you to make a business proposal to the boss.

You prove that you have business savy along with your other skills for which they employ you -- which may come in handy next time they are looking to promote from within... AND, you get paid for the gig in a manner than is commensurate with your skills and the local market.

But then again, if the boss is an idiot and only wants to take advantage of you, then you have other problems with your employment.

Ed

Jun 19, 2009 at 05:23 PM

Littlebike
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p.2 #10 · Employer gets a free photographer?

There really is nothing to "suck up" as you stated in your response to me.

Your employer is asking you to use your personal equipment for their gain, this is no different then them asking you to use your car for their business needs - you would not do so without proper compensation for it's use, the same can be said of the photography.

Personally I would approach them and state I am a professional photographer and as such I cannot shoot these photos for you as an aspect of my duties here. If you would like me to make these photographs I can do so as a service and can prepare a competitive bid.

The other option is just to show up with a point and shoot and blast them with full frontal flash. after they get the crappy unedited un-color corrected photos they will never ask you to shoot something again.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Littlebike
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p.2 #11 · Employer gets a free photographer?

ESC in KC wrote:
But then again, if the boss is an idiot and only wants to take advantage of you, then you have other problems with your employment.

If there is such a fear make sure all transactions are handled via email and CC all sent and received messages to your personal email account.

I have been asked in the past to violate copyright law at my place of employment - installing applications when we do not have enough licenses - and when these requests are made I make sure, via email, that all those involved know we do not have licenses and make sure my boss has instructed me to do so via email so I then have a paper trail.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:22 PM

runner301
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p.2 #12 · Employer gets a free photographer?

henryp wrote:

For decades my day job was a professional photographer. I never poached on a software programmer's turf and none ever poached on mine. IMO the kindest and wisest thing you could do would be to suggest your employer hire a professional photographer for his professional photography needs just as he's hired a professional software programmer for his software programming needs.

My opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.

Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video

Not the best logic...

By your logic, you should have stayed a photographer and should have never opened a photography store, because you have certainly "poached the turf" of some other photography stores.

While I agree with you to an extent, as long as the business properly compensates it's employees for their unique skill sets, I don't find it inappropriate for the copy boy to make a cup of coffee every once in a while, as long as he gets paid to do so.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:36 PM

Littlebike
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p.2 #13 · Employer gets a free photographer?

It seems that many live in fear of their jobs and thus bend to the will of their employers and this is just wrong, the only reason employers feel entitled is because their employees allow them to feel entitled.

How many people have additional skills aside from photography - piano playing, carpentry, painters, writers, mechanics, cooks, etc? If any employer were to ask them to use their other skills to the benefit of the company I think they would quickly balk at that suggestion yet when it comes to photography they easily bend. Doing so completely devalues photography for all professional and amateurs alike.

Being a good photographer is a rare skill - just like being a good piano player, painter, or golfer - and as such should be valued and compensated when used, especially for business purposes.

If this company is making annual reports then they have money and a budget. Basically they are trying to EXPLOIT you and your personal skill set for their business needs, this is unacceptable.

If you do not feel you can negotiate a proper fee (into the thousands) for such a job then negotiate additional vacation time to that same value. If they are unwilling to bend then bow out.

Again, make sure all communication in this regard is done via email. If a personal conversation happens then follow up with an email restating all the aspects of that conversation. Make sure all communication is noted in this manner and CC to your personal email address.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:38 PM

runner301
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p.2 #14 · Employer gets a free photographer?

kabhatti wrote:
When my employer wishes to use my services as a photographer, I simply take the time off and do it on my own time with my own equipment. The subject of payment needs to come up before you agree to do the work, and that's easier said then done.

Personally, I use this approach as well. Keep everything separate as much as you can.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:38 PM

Littlebike
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p.2 #15 · Employer gets a free photographer?

runner301 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, as long as the business properly compensates it's employees for their unique skill sets, I don't find it inappropriate for the copy boy to make a cup of coffee every once in a while, as long as he gets paid to do so.

That copy boy is not being asked to haul in his personal beans, coffee roaster, coffee grinder, water, coffee maker, coffee cups, cream, and sugar. Your analogy is insanely flawed and in no way even conceivably comparable to that of a photographer.

A photographers equipment does not magically show up at the office, in my case it would involve driving instead of taking the train and hauling in about 150 lbs of equipment - not at all comparable to placing a filter in a coffee maker and opening a bag of maxwell house.

Jun 20, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #16 · Employer gets a free photographer?

runner301 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, as long as the business properly compensates it's employees for their unique skill sets, I don't find it inappropriate for the copy boy to make a cup of coffee every once in a while, as long as he gets paid to do so.

Real nice, comparing getting a cup of coffee to the skills it takes to do professional photography...

Jun 21, 2009 at 05:37 AM

JimDiGritz
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p.2 #17 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I know this wont be popular but...

I've got a really nice car. I spent tens of thousands on it. I love driving. My boss knows I love driving and has asked me to pick him up and drive him to the office and has now asked me to drive him to his appointments, because.. well I love driving and my car is really neat plus it saves him a bunch on gas.

Mixing 'jobs' is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

Jim

Jun 21, 2009 at 04:10 PM

Micky Bill
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p.2 #18 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Brent Ward wrote:
runner301 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, as long as the business properly compensates it's employees for their unique skill sets, I don't find it inappropriate for the copy boy to make a cup of coffee every once in a while, as long as he gets paid to do so.

Real nice, comparing getting a cup of coffee to the skills it takes to do professional photography...

I dunno Brent, making a "double shot, half caf, semi-dry, mochalatta quattro fromage, extra hot with just a dab (because I am on a diet) of whipped cream" is a unique skill set...

Asking anyone to make coffee isn't a big deal, and would be the photography equal to using the P&S in your desk at a birthday cake party.
Photographing the CEO or the B of Directors for the Annual Report is another story all together, shows how most people (both here on FM and at the OPs job) have no idea about the value of photography.

Jun 21, 2009 at 04:55 PM

Brent Ward
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p.2 #19 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Micky Bill wrote:
Brent Ward wrote:
runner301 wrote:
While I agree with you to an extent, as long as the business properly compensates it's employees for their unique skill sets, I don't find it inappropriate for the copy boy to make a cup of coffee every once in a while, as long as he gets paid to do so.

Real nice, comparing getting a cup of coffee to the skills it takes to do professional photography...

I dunno Brent, making a "double shot, half caf, semi-dry, mochalatta quattro fromage, extra hot with just a dab (because I am on a diet) of whipped cream" is a unique skill set...

Asking anyone to make coffee isn't a big deal, and would be the photography equal to using the P&S in your desk at a birthday cake party.
Photographing the CEO or the B of Directors for the Annual Report is another story all together, shows how most people (both here on FM and at the OPs job) have no idea about the value of photography.

I agree. My favorite assistant used to be a barista. The most important part of her day is making stuff for the clients while I set up. Happy clients makes a happy photographer.

Jun 21, 2009 at 06:43 PM

mill4570
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p.2 #20 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Micky Bill wrote:

I dunno Brent, making a "double shot, half caf, semi-dry, mochalatta quattro fromage, extra hot with just a dab (because I am on a diet) of whipped cream" is a unique skill set...

Adding to my diet list.

Richard K.

Jun 22, 2009 at 03:22 PM

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