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Archive 2009 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Erik Moore
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p.1 #1 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I am almost sure this has been covered before, but didn't know how to search for it. If someone can point me to a previous thread, please do so.

My day job is as a software programmer. My employer knows that I am a serious hobbyist photographer on the side. Not long ago, the need for a pro quality product type shot came up at work, and I volunteered to do it on the clock, using my equipment. The topic of compensation never came up because I was happy for a break from usual duties to spend some time taking pictures.

They have now asked that I take the board of directors portraits and group shots in a couple of months, something that they usually hire a pro to come out and spend a few hours doing. If I were using their equipment, I think the case would be clear cut, but I somehow feel that since they are utilizing equipment that I have personally laid out thousands of dollars for, I should somehow be compensated, even if it means I take some vacation time to come in and work as a contractor for the time that it takes to take the photos.

I'm not sure how to approach this topic with them or really even if I am thinking in the right terms. Thoughts?

Jun 15, 2009 at 09:10 PM

Brent Ward
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p.1 #2 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Offer to rent the company your gear or have them rent what you need from a rental house.

The rental house gets you out of using your own gear and them paying you extra which they could frown upon. Plus, it's a good time for you to try out gear you don't own.

Jun 15, 2009 at 09:25 PM

jofoto photo
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p.1 #3 · Employer gets a free photographer?

From a business point of view, that should be your line of thought. Pricing should be a cent under the pro pricing in your time. See how it stands up then. Other than that your just doing a free lunch with washing up and devaluing what could one day be your livelihood.
Bottom line, keep your employment and photography separate, your dilemma is you volunteered your services try not to antagonise your employer by asking for compensation now he may view it as a pay rise

Then you might have to try and make a living at it to find some employee has taken your contract.

Jun 15, 2009 at 09:56 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #4 · Employer gets a free photographer?

So why is this shoot any different than the first shoot? It's still fun, right? A welcome change from your day job? The boss thinks he pays you to do what he says, photos, programming, mow the lawn, etc.
Maybe bid the job out to photographers and see what they would charge. Let your boss know how much the job is worth. See if it's worth it to take you off your real job to be photographer for a day.

Jun 15, 2009 at 10:16 PM

jcolman
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p.1 #5 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I'm in the same boat so to speak. In my day job, I'm a video producer/director. I shoot freelance stills on weekends and evenings. From time to time, a client will want still photos along with their video. I've worked out a "rental fee" for the use of my gear + my edit time to produce the photos. Works out well for both me and the company I work for.

Jun 15, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Erik Moore
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p.1 #6 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Micky Bill wrote:
So why is this shoot any different than the first shoot? It's still fun, right? A welcome change from your day job? The boss thinks he pays you to do what he says, photos, programming, mow the lawn, etc.
Maybe bid the job out to photographers and see what they would charge. Let your boss know how much the job is worth. See if it's worth it to take you off your real job to be photographer for a day.

I guess it's different because they normally pay someone to do it every year. They know what it's worth. The previous job was of a kind of a one-off thing that was loosely related to something I was working on anyway. This one requires more expertise, more time, and more equipment. It's not that I mind the work. I like it, actually. It's just that I have a substantial amount invested in my gear, and I guess I feel that they should at least contribute.

Jun 15, 2009 at 10:26 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #7 · Employer gets a free photographer?

If they know what it's worth are they are going to you so they don't have to pay an outside vendor? It's not really the $ that you have spent on your gear that matters it's the value of the photograph of the B of Ds. ($100? $5000? or somewhere in between) what is the use? Display in the lobby? Annual Report? Web or Ad? Does Work for Hire apply here?

As far as renting goes, until you have account at a rental house or a credit card with about $6k open (for a deposit) you may find it difficult to rent alot of equipment although some places will sell insurance by the day.

Jun 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #8 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Yes, it's a sticky situation, one I'm sort of in myself. I am a full time accountant, with a serious case of "photographyitis" on the side. My boss, the CEO, loves my work and has commissioned me to do a great deal of work, to include the printing, matting and framing. However, he IS paying me for the work, which is done in my off-hours and not on company time. Were I allowed to do the work during my regularly scheduled hours, and paid my regular rate of pay, I would have no qualms about not charging for my time, but only materials.

If you know how much it cost for the pro to do it, then you should tell the boss you will take $xx (you fill in the blank) less/more to do the job on your off-hours. If it's "on the clock" time, I would just consider it "other duties as assigned"

Jun 15, 2009 at 11:50 PM

jamad
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p.1 #9 · Employer gets a free photographer?

If it is "on the clock time", you should still submit an expense report (approved before the shoot) for the rental gear and your gear at rental rates. But that still does not account for the usage value of the photo(s). The company has paid outside photographers to do the job in the past. This time, you have the inside track. I would prepare a bid for the job based on the market rate for your area (as suggested above). If they balk, nothing lost. Nothing clarifies expectations like a dollar figure in black and white. You certainly deserve compensation for the service you provide, including (but not limited to) your time and production cost.

Jun 16, 2009 at 12:24 AM

JimboCin
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p.1 #10 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I like many of the others am in a similar situation to yours. My day job is in engineering, and I love photography. I work for a multi tens of billions of dollars company. I have done a number of special shoots for my area - get togethers, seminars and symposia, head shots for posters, etc. No problem. I get a fair price for my job as an engineer, I work with great people, they treat me well and I have a secure job. I don't expect them to pay my salary and then pay me more to take some photos - but I can certainly understand that others circumstances may be different.

Eric - I don't know the size of company you work for. If this were a medium-sized company or larger I personally would never accept such an assignment as the Board of Directors. I have respectfully declined somewhat similar requests from my company. Many people look at my photos and think I am a good photographer - and so do I - a good AMATURE photographer.

I know I am not a professional photographer - I simply do not have that level of talent and skill.

I know if I took the photos of the Board of Directors at least some people would be disappointed in them. My company pays and rewards me to be an engineer. I certainly would not want to get dinged because my photo of the company president, although "free" - did not measure up to someones expectations.

In such a situation I personally would tell them I do not feel capable with my skills versus the expectations they would have for such a shoot. You may feel differently about your skills and what they expect of the photos.

My two cents worth.

Jim

Jun 16, 2009 at 01:19 AM

pappawheely
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p.1 #11 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I have been put in this situation at my last two employers. I simply state that I get paid x amount as a photographer. Both felt that I should do it for the company but I politely ask "If I sold tupperware on the weekends would you be entitled to free tupperware?". They then understand that my services are a product and should be treated as such.

Jun 16, 2009 at 02:07 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #12 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Yes, bill them for gear rental for sure.

And most professional commercial photographers have an hourly rate of at least $100, often with usage fees on top of that.

So unless you're getting paid $200,000 annually with your employer then they are saving mucho dollars by hiring you instead of a pro. You should get your share of that savings by charging them more than your regular current hourly wage.

But do what you like .. most in your situation just concede to their employers demands and give away the shop under the premise that it's better to be a photographer for an hour that whatever else you'd normally be doing for that hour.

Jun 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

pixelman
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p.1 #13 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I'm reminded of designers being annoyed by office support people taking all day or on a what would be a microjob at a cost of a couple hundred bucks for second rate. The regular work not happening etc. Meanwhile the designer would knock it out for a couple hundred by first coffee breaktime. One, mostly don't piss off your boss is rule one. Rule two grass isn't greener when they want what they want and it's not your natural habitat. Fun becomes work in about 4.5 seconds

Good luck...

Jun 16, 2009 at 01:34 PM

Littlebike
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p.1 #14 · Employer gets a free photographer?

My approach would be to take vacation time for the days they schedule the shoot and charge them pro rates for the work - you are not on their clock and acting as an independent contractor.

If they do not like this then they are welcome to hire a photographer.

Jun 16, 2009 at 04:05 PM

Erik Moore
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p.1 #15 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Littlebike wrote:
My approach would be to take vacation time for the days they schedule the shoot and charge them pro rates for the work - you are not on their clock and acting as an independent contractor.

If they do not like this then they are welcome to hire a photographer.

That was my instinct as well, but now I'm just kinda wondering how to approach the topic without ruffling any feathers. Still not sure what I'm going to do- raise the topic, or just suck it up and shoot. Thanks everyone, for your angles and experiences.

Jun 16, 2009 at 04:47 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #16 · Employer gets a free photographer?

Just don't screw it up. You don't want the reputation of the photo hobbyist who made the chairman of the board look like Crusty the Clown.
The advantage that the outside photog has in this situation is that I can come in and ask (in a nice way) your bosses bosses bosses boss to stand a certain way, ask if he has another tie in his office that doesn't have stains on it, make him go comb his hair etc. without any issues.

Jun 16, 2009 at 05:16 PM

mkweaver
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p.1 #17 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I am a pro. Had a studio many years. Lost my eyesight for about ten years, and now have it back. While it was unusable for photography, I could still see to do my old profession: accounting, and had a family to support. So now I am an accountant for a manufacturing firm. While I was having my several eye surgeries, my boss found out about my photography skills. I have since photographed all the products we manufacture, learned to use InDesign and Illustrator and Photoshop, which the company purchased for me. I consider that a good trade. They have paid for me to take courses in learning these skills. Therefore, I am even a better photographer now because of those skills and also use these photos on my web site for advertising, with their permission. Therefore, I feel I've been compensated. Perhaps you can work out a similar compensation for the use of your skills?
Or extra vacation time. A trade they will find acceptable, and you will also. It will put value to your work, and also save them cash in these economically unsatisfactory times. Might just save your job, too.

Jun 16, 2009 at 05:19 PM

Erik Moore
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p.1 #18 · Employer gets a free photographer?

mkweaver wrote:
I am a pro. Had a studio many years. Lost my eyesight for about ten years, and now have it back. While it was unusable for photography, I could still see to do my old profession: accounting, and had a family to support. So now I am an accountant for a manufacturing firm. While I was having my several eye surgeries, my boss found out about my photography skills. I have since photographed all the products we manufacture, learned to use InDesign and Illustrator and Photoshop, which the company purchased for me. I consider that a good trade. They have paid for me to take courses in learning these skills. Therefore, I am even a better photographer now because of those skills and also use these photos on my web site for advertising, with their permission. Therefore, I feel I've been compensated. Perhaps you can work out a similar compensation for the use of your skills?
Or extra vacation time. A trade they will find acceptable, and you will also. It will put value to your work, and also save them cash in these economically unsatisfactory times. Might just save your job, too.

I think that's an excellent, and refreshing way to look at it.

And for those that have shown concern, I'm not too worried about screwing it up. It's a fairly small company, and the photos will be used for the website and the annual report. I have enough experience with group photos and headshots to be confident in taking on the job.

Jun 16, 2009 at 05:25 PM

native-ridge
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p.1 #19 · Employer gets a free photographer?

mkweaver has the best solution I have read in here and this would be the most diplomatic way of addressing the issue to me.

Take advantage of the situation, find some courses or software/hardware that you need and don't be shy (as your employer isn't). Tell them that whatever you would like from above choices is something that you have been wanting to do and you will be happy to do the photo sessions if they can cover the costs of your choice/s..

Win Win

If the Employer isn't interested then you can politely tell him/her that you have invested a lot of time in your equipment and you are not comfortable with doing work for free. Regardless if you are Pro or otherwise.

"Sorry"

Edited on Jun 16, 2009 at 05:34 PM · View previous versions

Jun 16, 2009 at 05:31 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #20 · Employer gets a free photographer?

I'd suggest telling them that you aren't a "professional" portrait photographer, that this is outside your area of expertise.

There should be no question that if "you" needed additional equipment and rentals that they would cover that. Including the time and effort, you or others, to get it, return it, etc. That's easily understood for a business. If they had to rent a special piece of maintenance equipment for a "job," they wouldn't expect the custodian to eat the expenses.

"Pros" are going to find that the selling of "usage value" is going to become less viable. Photography is becoming commoditized and businesses will find economically competitive alternatives or use "house" talent. The OP is getting paid for his programming but isn't necessarily being paid on a sliding scale for the "usage" value of his work. The highs and lows and business bumps are accounted for in his salary. Of course, if the end product is ultimately a failure, he could lose his job.

Jun 16, 2009 at 05:31 PM

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