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Archive 2009 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Cableaddict
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p.1 #1 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

I'm looking to step up from my "multiple Speedlights" setup. Portability and ease of adjustment are my two primary concerns.

After much research, I just can't find the system I want, at any cost. I'm curious if the following exists, or may exist soon, and what you folks think:

Set aside issues like recycle time, color consistency, flash duration, and modifier availability / quality. These are all important, but less so (to me) than the following.
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MY DREAM SYSTEM:

Ideally, a head-pack system, to save on both size & cost. Small monolights would be acceptable, of course.

The same control over individual head output / ratio as with a digital monolight. (Probably another reason to consider small monolights right now, but I can wait if something good is on the horizon.)

A 250w or higher modeling lamp, with variable output.

A controller-pack that is ALSO a battery pack. Why have to carry both?
Ideally, this battery pack should be able to be charged while in use, since most of the time there will be AC available. I imagine I would rather have one small pack for each light, instead of one large pack. I realize this makes the control issue more difficult, but it means no cables on the floor/ground, easier maneuvering, ability to use the packs as stand-ballast, and built-in redundancy.

A single master controller for all lights in the system, even if I'm using individual battery packs. - This is certainly a technical possibility, just take the electronics from a digital monolight & put them onto a battery pack.

In my perfect, dream world, this master controller would also be wireless. Again, this is technically feasible.
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So, what's the deal? Isn't this kind of the obvious way to go? Any thoughts, or good news on the horizon?

The Elinchrom Ranger series comes very close, but not quite. (the remote isn't wireless) Maybe go with their monolights, small battery packs (which ones?) and the skyport wireless controller?
Maybe the new Ranger Quandra does it all, but I can't quite tell. I also think it only does 400 w/s, which is too limiting.

The upcoming Paul Buff system might do, (Cyber Commander, + small digital monolights, + vagabonds for each monolight) if it ever actually exists, but you know.....

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 07:08 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 06:42 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #2 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

You can run Profoto D1 heads from a battery - and control with air.

The Elinchrom Quadra looks nice but is more pricey than I thought it would be.

- renting is a very good option if you are near a decent rental house.

May 12, 2009 at 07:05 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #3 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Hensel Porty 12 Lithium, perhaps. Or one of Bron's AC/DC units...is it the Verso?

Profoto D4 gets you everything but the battery, but it can be run off a genny. Wireless control is one of your dealbreakers, as it's a pretty new thing that people are slow to adopt due to the proprietary nature of it, and fully-asynchronous heads with digital control isn't very common on packs supporting more than 2 heads. Hell, battery-powered packs supporting more than 2 heads aren't common.

May 12, 2009 at 07:33 PM

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p.1 #4 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Red,
Renting is no good for me, as I'm a hobbyist. I need my stuff ready to go whenever an opportunity comes up, and it's rarely planned.

Oh, and forget Profoto. (I wish) I'm a serious hobbyist, but not THAT serious! The new Elinchrom Ranger Quadra is hard to find pricing on, but it looks to be around $1500 for one complete head-pack system. That's absolutely as high as I can go, but I WILL spend that much (plus extra for the controller.) That's actually less than a full-blown Qflash rig. Sadly, there's that 400 watt limitation....
-------------------------

Shatterkiss,

Yeah, I hear you about the wireless, but that's what I demand if I'm going to spend this much money. Otherwise I can just by a used Speedotron rig and take a vacation with the savings. The whole point of individual heads is so there are no wires lying about. A wired remote blows the whole concept.

I would DEFINITELY be using one small, individual pack per head / monolight, so the asymmetrical problem doesn't apply. Some manufacturer simply has to see the value in such a system, and go for it. I'll take a look at those Hensel & Bron rigs you mentioned. (Bron will likely be too expensive)

I have a feeling that Elinchrom has what I need, (momolights + Skyport controller) but I'm just not seeing it yet.
I have a feeling that Paul Buff is heading in the right direction, but well, you know......

May 12, 2009 at 07:41 PM

mmurph
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p.1 #5 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

shatterkiss wrote:
Or one of Bron's AC/DC units...is it the Verso?

Yeah, the Verso. The A2 is 1200 Ws, the A4 is 2400 Ws.

Don't let the list price scare you. Very nice demo/used units are 50% of list price. **Maximum** used price right now would be $4,300 with battery for an A2 RFS (radio control.) Probably available for less if you look/wait a bit.

Th e bigger question is really which system you want to buy into for the long term.

The Verso A2 is about 16 pounds, which is pretty decent. The battery packs a lot of power, but is a bit heavier at 27 pounds.

It has 3 channels, independently controlled (fully asynchronous) over a 7+ stop range. Modelling lights up to 3x 650 watts on 240 volt, 3x300 watts on 120 volt.

On battery 1x650 watts, 2x300 watts, or 3x150 watt on battery for up to 20 minutes. 450 full power pops on a battery.

Review the specs, it will show you what is possible. Then you can get back to reality.

The Profoto B2 is somewhat similar at the higher end. Broncolor also makes a Mobile similar to the Ranger, Porty, etc.

E-mail if you like.

*************************

http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_do_bs_versoa2a4_en.pdf

The high-end power packs Verso A mean no compromises. Neither
in the studio nor on location.

With three individually (asymmetrically) controllable lamp connections, very short charging times and flash durations, a control range up to 8 f-stops, a bright modelling light and the extremely capable Power Dock, the Verso A2 and Verso A4 do it all.

When the Verso A2 is operated on mains power, it charges to full capacity in less than a second . When using the Power Dock the charging time remains well below 2 seconds (1.5 sec at maximum output).

The flash pulse duration is equally impressive: even at full power (1200 J) the flash discharge of the Verso A2 lasts no more than 1/1500 sec (t 0.5). Even without
additional lamps, an internal capacitor cut-off shortens the flash duration even further as soon as power is reduced. Reducing the output by two f-stops
(setting 8 / 300 J) yields a flash time of only 1/3500 sec (t 0.5)....regardless of
the power source � mains or with Power Dock!

Even with the rapid flash sequences of a fashion shoot, every flash
has absolutely identical brightness.Flash voltage is stabilised
to within 0.5% to prevent incorrect exposures (and the resulting
colour shifts) even in multi-shot images. The colour temperature
remains constant, varying by only �100� K elvin over a range of four
full f-stops.

With fast charging and at full flash output, it provides power for about 350 discharges (180 discharges for Verso A4)! With normal charging, 450 flashes are
available even at 1200 J (respectively 240 flashes at 2400 J).

*********************

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/423255-REG/Broncolor_10_3850_Verso_A2_RFS_1200.html#features

Designed as a studio power pack, the Broncolor Verso 2 RFS 1200 watt/second multi voltage power pack accepts a docking rechargeable battery that enables the photographer to work where AC power is unavailable. It has 3 flash head outlets, and it accepts any Broncolor flash head made since 1972. Power distribution is asymmetrical, which increases its versatility.

Flash triggering is wireless with Broncolor's RFS (Radio Frequency System). This technology rules out potential misfiring due to high infra red saturation of sunlight at midday.

Flash head is required, and must be ordered separately. The battery and a sync cord are also optional.

� Short Recycle Times
When battery operated, the Verso A2 provides 0.3 - 1.8 seconds recycle time.

� Seven Stop Power Variator
Eliminates the need for a second power pack, or N.D. filters.
Adjustable in full, or .1 Stop variations.

� Built-in Optical Slave
Sensitivity may be reduced manually.

� Large Capacity Battery
Optional battery provides ~350 full power flashes @ full power and fast recycle setting -- enough for most assignments.
Low battery level warning light on pack.

� Fires Without Wires
Optional RFS transceiver allows firing of the power pack from the camera, or (with optional software) from a Mac or PC computer.

Although tested successfully up to 990' (300m), expected range indoors is ~100' (30m), outdoors, ~165' (50m).

� Programmable
Multiple pop sequence may be stored; fan-cooling prevents overheating.

� Remembers Setttings
Channel Output settings and special functions are remembered and recalled immediately after powering up.

� Digital Readouts
Each channel displays power settings in .1 stop, easy-to-read numbers

*******************************

May 12, 2009 at 08:03 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #6 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Info appreciated, but the Broncolor Verso doesn't fit my description at all. Again, I want one small pack for each head.

May 12, 2009 at 08:15 PM

RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #7 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

How much money do you want to spend?

You might consider getting nothing for a short while - Profoto will be replacing the acute line with a similarly priced AIr system. That will meet you needs nicely.

Also - there is a new Broncolor unit that does something silly like 150 pops per second.

May 12, 2009 at 08:24 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #8 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

RedWhiteandRed wrote:
How much money do you want to spend?
You might consider getting nothing for a short while - .

-that's definitely within my price range!

I'll keep an eye open for the new Profoto. In the meantime, I'd better get off these forums and drum-up some extra work so I can afford all these toys...

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 08:40 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 08:37 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #9 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Cableaddict wrote:
Again, I want one small pack for each head.

Didn't see that anywhere in your post...I might have just overlooked it.

Listen, you've got a wishlist that's unrealistic, especially if you're saying that Profoto is out of your price range. One small pack for every head, wireless control of settings, cheaper than Profoto? Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. Look at Elinchrom RX-series monolights, Skyports and a separate battery/inverter for each strobe. You're still looking at, what, $1000/head final cost?

May 12, 2009 at 08:38 PM

mmurph
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p.1 #10 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Most battery operated units do not support useful modelling lights on battery. You really need to go to a generator to get that, or the bigger units like the Proforo B2/Bron Verso.

If you want multiple units in the field, you would probably be best buying ACunits for the studio, then multiple lower end units with 100 watt modelling lights for the field.

I have 3 Broncolor Mobil (1200 Ws) and 3 Visatec Litepac (same basic unit, 600 Ws) for the field. Never really use them in the studio. Basically teh same type of setup as the Hensel Porty, Elinchrom Ranger, Profoto Acute 600b, etc.

Might be best to rent one just to test? There are usually a lot of competing engineering/design "wants" for field units. I agonozied before I bought - was 600 Ws enough, symettrical acceptable, required adjustment range, etc. Once you try them out you might find what you can really live with. For me 600 Ws with a 4 stop adjustment range and symettrical output is fine for most needs (though I just bought a Verso A2 RFS for higher end needs.)

No offense, but that 1 head/1 pack thing was a bit buried.

May 12, 2009 at 08:53 PM

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p.1 #11 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

shatterkiss wrote:
Didn't see that anywhere in your post...I might have just overlooked it.

Right in the middle of my (rather long) OP.
Since this is the heart of my query / quandary, and others may have also missed it, let me clarify my thoughts:
--------------------------------------------------

If a manufacturer were to commit to this idea, one combined control/battery pack per light, and a REQUIRED dedicated master controller, (wireless) then:

1: The pack cost could be knocked down considerably:

One output connector. No need for asymetrical outputs. No need for switches to choose between max output vs flash duration, etc, etc, etc

You would also only need simple read-outs. Granted, you'd probably want to carry a spare controller, but a pro would do that anyway, so why put redundant controls on the packs?

2: The packs could be smaller and still be optimized for fast recycle times.

3: Super-fine control with a pack-head is now feasible, as the head is dedicated to the pack.

4: The wireless receiver could be simplified, as it would only have to deal with one channel / one light.

5: The system could come with a 7-8' cable instead of 20', saving a little more cost, and making it slightly more portable & easier to manage. Elinchrom is already doing this with the Quadra.
Maybe even include a hook into the pack-handle, for using it as a stand-ballast.

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 09:18 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 08:58 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #12 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Let me add one more requirement:

Whatever wireless system is integrated into these dream-units, there must be an adapter available that can trigger a Speedlight from the same controller (even if just a simple trigger, with no output adjustments.)

The reason: At events, it is far easier to use an onboard Speedlight for fill, than to carry around another flash head / stand. A major benefit of this system would be portability, so this is not a minor issue. It's good to have options.

Skyport does offer this now, but I believe it's just a basic trigger. How cool would it be to have the controller be able to adjust the Speedlight's output as well?
------

Oh yeah, one more dream feature:

The controller should have user-definable, master presets: ratios, overal output, duration if applicable, etc. - and then those presets should then be further adjustable with a master + / - exposure-control.

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 09:10 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 09:04 PM

jonathanwilson
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p.1 #13 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Would this work?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/273370-REG/Broncolor_11_4010_Minicom_40_300.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/575867-REG/Broncolor_11_4050_Powerbox_900_for_Broncolor.html

Then add either one of these.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/273437-REG/Broncolor_16_2080_RFS_Radio_Slave_Transmitter.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/273438-REG/Broncolor_16_2081_RFS_Radio_Slave_Transceiver.html

There's also the Visatec versions to save on $...and features.

May 12, 2009 at 09:10 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #14 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Nice equipment, but not at all what I outlined, above.

Only 300 w/s

Excessive cost & size because all controls are in the light.

No master controller of any kind.

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 10:45 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 09:14 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #15 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

These may be your dream system, but I just don't see them being very useful for most people. I certainly wouldn't want to own them - it might handle one type of job well, but it would do too many other things poorly.

It sounds like you should basically invest in Quantum Q-Flashes and Turbos, suck up the shortcomings involved.

May 12, 2009 at 09:21 PM

rudiphoto
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p.1 #16 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

What you want will not be cheap. Period.

The cheapest good quality option would be, as shatterkiss already mentioned, an Elinchrom RX mono with a Vagabond and Skyport receiver. Over $1000 per light (with battery and Skyport trigger, as per your request).

May 12, 2009 at 09:21 PM

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p.1 #17 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

shatterkiss wrote:
These may be your dream system, but I just don't see them being very useful for most people. I certainly wouldn't want to own them - it might handle one type of job well, but it would do too many other things poorly.

What could this possibly not do, assuming the packs handled enough watt-seconds? (I'm asking)
------

Rudi,

Thanks. The Elinchrom RX w/ Vagabond & Skyport sounds like a decent compromise

I didn't know you could use a Vagabond with those lights. I also didn't know these worked with the wireless Skyport controller. I thought you had to use the wired remote, and the Skyport was only for the Ranger head-pack systems.

The price works for me. Again, it's less than a full-blown Qflash, with more power & much better options. They are bigger than I'd prefer (being monolights) but this could work.

What is the w/s limit with a Vagabond?

Edited on May 12, 2009 at 09:54 PM · View previous versions

May 12, 2009 at 09:23 PM

J Rabin
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p.1 #18 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

You're going to make yourself crazy with gear specs. Most of us can only recommend what we know or have used to solve lighting problems. Start with one good light.
For when QFlash doesn't cut it, here's what I gravitated to for a "car kit:"
1 used Dyna-Lite 500 Ws (or 1,000 Ws) wi wireless PW pack off Forum, craigslist, or fleabay
1 used 2040 head
1 Paul Buff Vagabond II battery $300
1 Pocket Wizard new MiniTT1 transmitter $200

You can just squeak above used for $1,500 total, and add more heads used in future.
New PW MiniTT1 transmitter not only fires pack while passing signal through to speedlight in hotshoe, but can do so at up to +2/3 X-sync of your camera. The 1-DMKIII can get up to 1/500! Never could do that before. Amazingly useful.

The short duration flash Dyna-Lite is excellent for anything, incl. sports, and gets shorter with more heads plugged in. They make good very consistent light. When plugged into wall main, I easily get 3 shots/second bursts. Can't do that from battery. If you handle them, Dyna-Lite pack and heads are surprisingly compact, rugged, portable, light weight, indestructible, and repairable. Digital control is overrated when out on-the-go. 1/3 stop adjustments are sufficient.
The symmetric and asymmetric ratios available cover most uses. In a pinch, change distance. Surprisingly useful in bare bulb, with reflector and grids (cost extra).

Yes, if you use the model light, the Vagnond II battery gives far fewer than rated # flashes, but that is not a limitation for number of shots I take, YMMV. The Dyna-Lite battery is more expensive, less portable, better.

You could do imilar kit as above with a Paul Buff Zeus 1250 pack and one head. $900. Plug and voltage compatible with Dyna-Lite. While cheaper, it does not have built in PW, so that will be another $200 for receiver, and another doo-dad to plug in. One light kit price, without your speedlight, is $1,600 before shipping, etc.

You'll need light stand, modifier, carry bag.

Edit. Vagabond limitation is # of seconds to recycle when firing at high power, which rarely occurs. I think recycle rate in Ws/sec is on PCB website.

May 12, 2009 at 09:43 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #19 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

Cableaddict wrote:
What could this possibly not do, assuming the packs handled enough watt-seconds? (I'm asking)

It's not about what it couldn't do, it's about what would be inefficient or inconvenient about it. I just think you're taking a shortsighted approach to the idea, making a wishlist that would result in gear that's really only optimized for one kind of shoot - a wedding or event, essentially.

One pack per head? Ugh, forget it. Sounds great when you're talking about shooting with one or two heads that are on opposite sides of a room or location, but how often is that really the case? Shooting a wedding or event, setting up cross-lights across the room from each other, fill from on-camera. That's it. In most other kinds of shoots it's more likely that I've got a cluster of strobes positioned close to each other, and now I need one pack for each of them? Not to mention the load-out to this shoot...what could have been 4-6 heads on 2-3 packs is now 4-6 packs, probably meaning 30-40% more size and weight?

Wireless control with limited physical controls at the pack? No thanks. Color me in the minority, but I don't want strobe control at the camera location in many situations. It puts potential complexity of ergonomics on a really small device, which is awkward. On most shoots I'm not holding a camera until the lighting is good to go, other than test shots, so now I'm going to need control at the light meter too. I'm likely to be working with heterogeneous lighting gear, so now I'll only have control over some of it. On a sizable shoot it's going to be assistants making those adjustments, so now I need to have another wireless controller in their hands? And what happens when I'm renting gear to handle a larger shoot?

As for simpler readouts...have you looked at a Profoto AcuteB pack before? It's essentially got the physical controls (one switch and dial for power output, switches for slave and modeling light, etc.) and 3 LEDs for battery level. Pretty damn simple. Most packs aren't very complex, as there isn't much complexity available.

It really sounds like you want Speedlights with better batteries, modifiers and more power output, which is basically the Quantum system. Otherwise, why not just Speedlights, wireless TTL exposure control and external battery packs to up your recycle and charge duration? You aren't really looking for strobes, you're looking for strobes that will behave like Speedlights.

May 12, 2009 at 10:21 PM

Cableaddict
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p.1 #20 · My dream lighting rig- Does it exist?

shatterkiss wrote:
It's not about what it couldn't do, it's about what would be inefficient or inconvenient about it. I just think you're taking a shortsighted approach to the idea, making a wishlist that would result in gear that's really only optimized for one kind of shoot - a wedding or event, essentially.

...what could have been 4-6 heads on 2-3 packs is now 4-6 packs, probably meaning 30-40% more size and weight?

I see your point, but if a manufacturer made the perfect system for weddings, with some shortcomings for other situations, would that not be a smart marketing move? (and great for the event photogs?)

As for the weight, each pack would be substantially lighter, and the cabling would be much shorter, so the total weight might actually be LESS.

May 12, 2009 at 10:49 PM

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