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Archive 2009 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...

  
 
vinke
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p.1 #1 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


specifically, those shooting digital for National Geographic:

RAW or Jpeg?

Carefully or "Spray and Pray"?

Many of the articles include about 20 or so images. No doubt, a photographer will probably shoot more like 500 - 2,000 images per story. Maybe more.

If I had to guess then I would say "Jpeg" and more "spray and pray", but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone knows more definatively.

I used to love this magazine as a kid and I've recently re-discovered it (online and print ) for it's wonderful photography. I'm not too wild about their sky's-falling, globe-is-warming, man-is-the-problem-for-everything message, but I can largely ignore it to see the interesting pictures.









May 12, 2009 at 05:07 PM
davidearls
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p.1 #2 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


The mark of the true professional is that he/she has the ability to make everything look simple. He/she makes you think, "Hey. I could do that."

"Spray and pray" jpeg? I'm guessing something more like:

1. Incredible background work on the subject. These people know what they're looking for because they're supposed to be taking photographs to illustrate the text. So I'm guessing there's a lot of subject study that precedes the shoot - months of it.

2. Since the colors for each article have to be perfectly balanced against every other image in the article, wouldn't it make sense to start with the ALL the information the camera captured on every shot?

3. 20 out of 500? 20 out of 2000? I'll bet it's more like 20 out of 20,000, and not a single one is "spray and pray" jpeg. You're only seeing the best 1/10 of 1% of what one of the better nature photographers on the planet captured in the field. Because there's as much time spent on the back end selecting and editing photographs as there was prep time before the shoot.

4. If you've ever worked through print production, you know that everything has to be printed in CVMYK colorspace. All the different color gamuts have different shapes, and so colors that present well in one may have to be extensively tweaked before thye present well in CMYK and each page can go press. If you think that's insignificant, compare the quality of what you see on the page in any book by John Shaw with what you see on the page in any book by Arthur Morris.

Naturally, others may see this differently. After all, as they say, "No amount of careful planning will ever beat pure dumb luck."



May 12, 2009 at 06:41 PM
vinke
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p.1 #3 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


davidearls wrote:
The mark of the true professional is that he/she has the ability to make everything look simple. He/she makes you think, "Hey. I could do that."

"Spray and pray" jpeg? I'm guessing something more like:

1. Incredible background work on the subject. These people know what they're looking for because they're supposed to be taking photographs to illustrate the text. So I'm guessing there's a lot of subject study that precedes the shoot - months of it.

2. Since the colors for each article have to be perfectly balanced against every other image in the article, wouldn't it make sense to start with
...Show more

Re:
1- I suppose so. But I'd imagine that most of their photographers are well-rounded and educated so as to make quick studies for any particular assignment. But months of subject study? I'd think that NG can choose from a pool of photographers that specialize in regions/topics/subject and availability to get around a costly education. In essence, their photographers are already "experts" for the assignment given. I'm not sure what NG pays, but I can't believe any photographer has months to prepare for any one story. If they do, they must be making money at something else, too.

2- I don't know. That's why I'm asking. I've heard that sports shooters (SI) and newspaper folks shoot largely Jpeg and some of their work is mighty impressive, too.

3- OK, and that's a tremendous amount of work after the shoot. I have a difficult enough time choosing the best of a couple hundred images. I don't envy this process.

4- Have no background print production. Sounds awfully boring.

As to making it look easy...it doesn't seem easy to me, but for photojournalists that make their living at the trade I'd think they have some tricks up their sleeves to get what they're after. A labor of love.



May 12, 2009 at 07:13 PM
GeneO
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p.1 #4 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


vinke wrote:
specifically, those shooting digital for National Geographic:

RAW or Jpeg?

Carefully or "Spray and Pray"?

Many of the articles include about 20 or so images. No doubt, a photographer will probably shoot more like 500 - 2,000 images per story. Maybe more.

If I had to guess then I would say "Jpeg" and more "spray and pray", but I thought I'd ask to see if anyone knows more definatively.

I used to love this magazine as a kid and I've recently re-discovered it (online and print ) for it's wonderful photography. I'm not too wild about their sky's-falling, globe-is-warming, man-is-the-problem-for-everything message, but I
...Show more

I don't think I'd gamble anything away guessing it is RAW.

I don;t think there are many photographers that "Spray and Pray". I think they wait for the right moment and shoot a burst. You might be surprised, for instance, how many frames you'd get with a bird and its nictitating membrane (second eyelid) is partially or completely closed, ruining the frame. It would be stupid not to shoot a burst.

and btw, the sky is falling

Gene



May 12, 2009 at 10:08 PM
genoph
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p.1 #5 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


NG shoots are huge projects, they span months of time of shooting and preparation, not to mention post. 20,000 might be low, I read an article on the post of an NG shooter once. 100,000 shots. 3 Assistants in a lab processing shots over Xserve's and Mac Pro's. Antartica is a big place.


May 12, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Johnny Bravo
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p.1 #6 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


I think it's pretty safe to say 'RAW'. Nobody is going to give up the flexibility that raw gives who is serious about their images.

And I think it's safe to say 'Planned' but I'm guessing that 'spray and pray' is part of good planning. (Meaning: you plan it out as best you can, and you spray and pray once you've got every variable you can control, controlled.

Here's a posting that was on the wisconsin bird network recently--this will give you some idea of the planning. (Since this was posted on a very obviously public board, I don't believe there is any issue with a repost here)

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Photo Query from National Geographic Magazine
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:17:53 -0700
From: <case2620@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: masoffice@xxxxxxxxxxx


Dear Audubon, Joel Sartore (my boss) has been assigned to do a photo essay for a National Geographic Magazine story on animal migrations. Though he'll be covering everything from monarchs to mammals, he'd like to do a series of environmental portraits of small, beautiful birds around the country, showing different bird species in various habitats. We can do prairie right here where we live, but would also like to other important habitats in the background as well (for example, a mountain scene, a swamp or marsh, a forest and a desert.) He's most interested in targeting especially striking bird species in these portraits. To do this type of photography, Joel will position a camera next to a bird feeder in a place where the background looks perfect. Ideally there's a natural looking perch very near by for birds to stage on while they wait their turn to eat. The camera is fixed on this spot and fired remotely with a radio signal. The result is that we get an intimate, wide-angle image showing the bird with the kind of background that says much about the kind of habitat the bird uses. The photo below illustrates this style [I deleted the attachment per Wisbirdnet rules. -Karen]. It was taken a few days ago of goldfinches near Lincoln, Nebraska. So, a few questions...Do you have folks in your area that are avid bird feeders with appropriate habitat right in their backyard? Do they have any great-looking migratory birds that will be coming to those feeders consistently, frequently and dependably this summer? If so, and they wouldn't mind Joel running a camera there for a few days, we'd sure love to hear from them. Please feel free to pass this e-mail along to whoever you think might have an interest, and many thanks. Sincerely, Amy Bruce Photo Researcher for Joel Sartore Contributing Photographer, National Geographic Magazine
**************


And I have to agree with you, vinke, I really don't care much for Nat Geo's new style. I could really care less about the people in zip code xxxxx, for example. If I want to learn about zip codes, I'll drop by a post office. Gee, people in Tx wear cowboy hats and boots and like bbq? No kidding. Wow, Nat Geo, you really put yourself out there for that story. Sheesh.

And the 'polar bears are dying' and the sky is falling Ok, ok, so you're sensitive. Get your butt out into the field and wow me, dammit!! (so say I to Nat Geo). Luckily there is generally at least one article in any issue of the magazine still worth reading. I'm just dreading they day that stop doing that article and go with a 'Global Warming/Animal Gay Marriage' combo issue. That'll be it for me, and I fear it's coming.



May 12, 2009 at 10:21 PM
tom f
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p.1 #7 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


As you, I used to be a fan of NatGeo magazine loving to look at the pictures. Haven't seen this magazine in a number of years, but don't see how the NG photographers could have anything over some of the images posted by some of the fm photographers on this forum.




May 13, 2009 at 05:11 AM
jbr13
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p.1 #8 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


Our camera club had a NatGeo Photo editor stop by for a talk one evening. We didn't get into Jpeg vs Raw, but he did say the get to go on assignment one or twice a year, for time periods of two weeks to two months depending on the assignment. When he was a editor there several years ago, they were only making between 15K and 30K. Seems like good pay until you figure, they only get that one or max twice a year. He said most guys shoot and sell stock, pick up other photo assignments for businesses, and all. If you want to find the answer really to the Raw vs Jpg and Spray and pray, pick up one of the many books these photogs write, or go on one of the photo trips they give. You can get the answers for all of us and learn a lot I would think.

Or pick up a copy of NatGeos Field Guide to Photography



May 13, 2009 at 08:21 AM
vinke
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p.1 #9 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...




I don't think I'd gamble anything away guessing it is RAW.

I don;t think there are many photographers that "Spray and Pray". I think they wait for the right moment and shoot a burst. You might be surprised, for instance, how many frames you'd get with a bird and its nictitating membrane (second eyelid) is partially or completely closed, ruining the frame. It would be stupid not to shoot a burst.

and btw, the sky is falling

Gene


that's probably more what i meant to say...shooting in bursts when the moment looks right. and a scene that looks right might not yield any useable images at all. nevertheless, 20 - 100 K images per assignment seems crazy and i'm pretty sure that i could come away with 20 great images given those numbers. i think i'm changing my mind as i write here. technically, i think NG shooters are no magicians, but they bring us great images because: * they place themselves in interesting locations (F8 & be there) and they have a natural gift for telling a story through pictures aided by their intimate knowledge of the region and subject matter.

Edited on May 13, 2009 at 09:34 AM · View previous versions



May 13, 2009 at 09:15 AM
Josh S
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p.1 #10 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


Firstly, they have pretty skilled photographers... Sure they get lucky with timing every now and then, but they are making their own luck by using good gear, taking their time to compose and set up images and having a sound understanding of photography....

Secondly, " I'm not too wild about their sky's-falling, globe-is-warming, man-is-the-problem-for-everything message, but I can largely ignore it to see the interesting pictures."

Hey man, they've been out in the field for so long that the editors and photographers and writers for the magazine are seeing what is going on. If you want your kids to enjoy the magazine too you should embrace their style!

I agree that it is not necessarily fun to hear/read/see these sorts of themes but they are undeniable realities.



May 13, 2009 at 09:18 AM
Josh S
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p.1 #11 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


To my above statement... I won't stand by every line in their magazine - I don't read them all. Perhaps I don't always agree with their writers however the overall theme that we are responsible for wide spread changes to the nature of the planet is spot on.


May 13, 2009 at 09:20 AM
Johnny Bravo
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p.1 #12 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


Josh S wrote:
Firstly, they have pretty skilled photographers... Sure they get lucky with timing every now and then, but they are making their own luck by using good gear, taking their time to compose and set up images and having a sound understanding of photography....

Secondly, " I'm not too wild about their sky's-falling, globe-is-warming, man-is-the-problem-for-everything message, but I can largely ignore it to see the interesting pictures."

Hey man, they've been out in the field for so long that the editors and photographers and writers for the magazine are seeing what is going on. If you want your kids to enjoy
...Show more


They are questionable theories, in many cases, not 'undeniable realities'. I've spent a tremendous amount of time in the field, and I've seen changes--but the sky is not falling, and half of what passes for 'science' these days is little more than sensational hype. Sad, but true. (I've seen more changes in the lowering of the standards in science and journalism than environmental degradation of late--now that is an undeniable reality)



May 13, 2009 at 08:55 PM
sitw
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p.1 #13 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


See the thing is global warming doesn't matter.


May 13, 2009 at 09:07 PM
walter23
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p.1 #14 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


I'm not too wild about their sky's-falling, globe-is-warming, man-is-the-problem-for-everything message

Yeah. We're not at a crisis point in the size of the human population or earth's capacity to support us here... go about your business as normal.

In any case, the worst that'll happen is we'll go extinct.

&feature=related" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">The planet will be just fine.



May 13, 2009 at 09:09 PM
walter23
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p.1 #15 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


and half of what passes for 'science' these days is little more than sensational hype.

Are you a qualified climate scientist? An ecologist? Do you have years of training in those extraordinarily complicated disciplines? Do you have the humility to accept this fact, or do you have the tenacity and intelligence to do something about it and develop a cogent argument against the published work and real data (not the stuff you see on TV)?

One major problem is that people, spurred on by irresponsible politicians, religious leaders, and partisanship, have become ridiculously arrogant. They don't value or trust expertise. But their skepticism is often very blind; many of them value and trust charismatic politicians, or those with the biggest advertising budgets. If some loudmouth says "ahhh, that's such a bunch of BULLSH!T" with an angry enough face, and on a pervasive enough TV channel, everybody flocks behind him.

I see no hope for our society if we can't each take on a little bit of personal humility and accept that we don't know a lot about things other people might have expertise in. I'm not going to question the physicists and engineers who design delivery systems to put communications satellites into orbit; I know nothing about robotics or digital signal processing; and I'm also not going to try to pick apart the arguments of climatologists who've spent years studying our natural systems. This doesn't mean we should be blindly obedient to authority; but if we're going to be skeptical, we have to be *truly* skeptical, and that means being skeptical of the skeptics as well. And if this is the point where you say "LOTS OF SCIENTISTS DON'T BELIEVE IN <whatever>", please answer: who, what did they study, how did they come to their conclusions, and what contradictory data is also out there. If you don't know that answer right off the bat you need to learn more before you start making assertions.



May 13, 2009 at 11:47 PM
digitalbug30d
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p.1 #16 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


on the above comment...Expertise? is a funny word in that so much value is put upon it as if anyone with Expertise is final without critical evaluation, ie global warming? is there global cooling? if you choose that then you are a crackpot for not adhering to the global warming crowd...I honestly dont think will could as humans have a major impact on a planet that has been here for 3+ billion years or so
humans 100-150k years of that and the industrial evolution 200 years of that
do the math...BUT I do think we do the planet no good by what we can do to
stop polluting, stop tearing down rain forests ect if not for the planet but for ourselves..it us that has to live here....
my non expertise 2 cents worth...



May 14, 2009 at 12:56 AM
archer
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p.1 #17 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


At the risk of this being a totally hijacked thread... The issue (as I see it) is that we ARE having an impact. I really recommend watching Extreme Ice, or looking at James Balog's Extreme Ice Survey project. The vast majority of scientists world wide DO believe that we are experiencing a major climate change. It is true, the planet has experienced temperature changes over and over throughout our planets lifetime. But scientists & climatologists agree that this has been greatly accelerated ever since the industrial revolution. Many predict that the high alpine glaciers (such as those in the Himalayas) will be completely melted away within the next 50-100 years. They do not hold enough water to raise ocean levels to a catastrophic level, but they are THE source of freshwater for a HUGE population of people (mainly in India, China, and East Asia). What will happen when fresh water supplies run dry in these countries - all of which have extensive nuclear arsenals? Yes, it may be overly dramatic. Or it may be our future. It may be sensational, but if there is even a chance for this to be true - isn't it worth it for us to take a stand and give something back to our planet (after all that we've taken from it) other than elevated CO2 levels, toxic waste, and ignorance of the huge impact we have on this planet that we call home. I'd be happy to learn that a million years from now, humans didn't have a negative impact on the planet earth - by that sounds pretty sensational too.


May 14, 2009 at 01:29 AM
archer
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p.1 #18 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


Also, as a counterpoint to the usual shooting styles of Nat. Geo photographers who shoot around 40,000 images per story on average. In November of 1997, National Geographic published a photo essay shot by renowned photographer Jim Brandenburg. It was the most photographs ever published in a single story in the history of the magazine. 90 images total. Pretty cool. But what's better is how many shots it took to get the 90 images. He shot less than 3 rolls of film. It was 1 shot a day for 90 days. No retakes, no bracketed shots, no mistakes. It was a self project that became a major Nat. Geo story and an award winning book.


May 14, 2009 at 01:34 AM
walter23
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p.1 #19 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


digitalbug30d wrote:
on the above comment...Expertise? is a funny word in that so much value is put upon it as if anyone with Expertise is final without critical evaluation, ie global warming? is there global cooling? if you choose that then you are a crackpot for not adhering to the global warming crowd...I honestly dont think will could as humans have a major impact on a planet that has been here for 3+ billion years or so
humans 100-150k years of that and the industrial evolution 200 years of that
do the math...BUT I do think we do the planet no good by what
...Show more

I addressed that.

You don't have to be non-critical, but humility is sorely missing in most popular criticism of scientific theories.



May 14, 2009 at 02:01 AM
zeus87
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p.1 #20 · What/How Do Pros Shoot...


Extreme Technological advancement is far beyond any kind of "natural" or "re-occuring" state. We have introduced and produced technology that has surpassed mans mind in terms of outcome on our planet. We can't even identify effects of nutrtion on our own greedy, self centered bodys without contradicting ourselves in 6 months, and you think there is a balance between man vs nature? Hah.. The science should be focused on individual aspects rather than the planet as a whole, we must pick and choose our battles...the war is lost without global catastrophe. Enough is enough with all the hype, pick what is needed and leave the rest. You can't fix everything at this point, hell...I watched the destruction of two threatned species by auto collision this week. But still focused on CO2 levels? Ignorance has been an excuse for far too long. Live it, love it, and deal with it...Guilt is unmeasurable.


May 14, 2009 at 02:09 AM
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