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Archive 2008 · Could I be a second shooter?

  
 
dayinmay
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p.1 #1 · Could I be a second shooter?


I've been thinking hard about a career change out of my Dilbert-esque industry, and wedding photography is one of the few things that has stirred up some (okay a lot) of passion in my bones. Practically speaking, I don't want to spend a fortune on equipment only to find that I'm a complete failure at wedding photography, so the question is: Do you think I have enough talent (in the rough) to back up the passion? Should I put myself out there and start by, for example, volunteering to be a second shooter?

Here are some sample photos for consideration (links only for now):

1 Love, Jimmy Choo

2 Oh, Oscar!

3 Bouquet

4 Hair and make-up check!

5 Groom awaits his bride

6 Kiss!

7 Shower of petals

8 Crouching bride (I got the idea for this pose from the photographer from my own wedding.)

9 Whisper sweet nothings

10 The full set is here.

*************

My own thoughts on the full set:

The Good
- Bride said she loved my photos and I think she truly means it (ie - not just saying it because we're good friends)

The Bad
- White balance is not uniform for pre-ceremony photos
- Overuse of post-processing to hide grainy/blurry photos
- Note1: As a wedding guest, I took the ceremony photos from the point of view of, well, a seated guest. I'd like to think I can get better angles/composition if I was free to move about, but need more practice.
- Note2: The original intent of the set was to show the whole wedding story to friends/family, so excuse the Uncle Bob-ish snapshots!

The Ugly
- My current gear puts me in the "idiots with Rebels and D-60s" category - shot most of the photos with the 18-55 kit lens my XSi came with
- Photos are not sharp enough (partially gear-related?)
- Ceremony + reception photos were very difficult to take and it shows (grainy, shaky, ugh!)

*************

Gear limitations aside, do you think I have a shot or am I doomed to work in Dilbert's world forever? Thank you in advance!



Nov 28, 2008 at 01:13 PM
letenele
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p.1 #2 · Could I be a second shooter?


I'd hire you based on the portfolio you just showed. You show attention to detail and some great moments are captured. You definitely need better equipment, but (at least in my case) the main photographer has gear you can shoot with until you buy your own.

2nd shooting will show you further if you have what it takes to be a wedding photographer. You may discover that weddings aren't for you. So kudos on the idea to 2nd shoot first.



Nov 28, 2008 at 02:18 PM
M Tahir
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p.1 #3 · Could I be a second shooter?


letenele wrote:
I'd hire you based on the portfolio you just showed. You show attention to detail and some great moments are captured. You definitely need better equipment, but (at least in my case) the main photographer has gear you can shoot with until you buy your own.

2nd shooting will show you further if you have what it takes to be a wedding photographer. You may discover that weddings aren't for you. So kudos on the idea to 2nd shoot first.


+1



Nov 28, 2008 at 02:56 PM
lovinglife
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p.1 #4 · Could I be a second shooter?


dayinmay - Very nice shots. The XSi, though, a entry level DSRL is nothing to sneer at. You may see a good difference with some inexpensive primes compared to the stock lens, but I don't see a need to upgrade the body at this point.

The important thing is your photography skill and creativity, which is evident in ur images.

Of course, from what I've heard, the 'business' of photography is a lot different than casual picture taking, I'm sure some of the pros would chime in on this. I.e. dealing w/people, getting consistently good images etc. Best of luck!



Nov 28, 2008 at 03:01 PM
weeums
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p.1 #5 · Could I be a second shooter?


I'd agree with Kristina.... I'd hire you / let you tag along as a 2nd based on this work alone... you may certainly find your gear to be a limitation you'll quickly want to outgrow. Upgrade the gear as needed and as you can justify.

I second the thought that "epuja" put out there: the business of "photography" is alot different than just taking photos and being a photographer. there's so much more to running a photography business than just "have camera will travel". Read the "E-Myth" book - it's very interesting and addresses these issues << just because you can fix a computer doesn't mean you are capable of running a computer fixing business >>.

- travis



Nov 29, 2008 at 03:02 AM
The Grays
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p.1 #6 · Could I be a second shooter?


You can do anything that you want if you have the ambition to be great at business! This work is better than my first set of images I took for a friend and my wife and I now shoot full time and have done very well.

Photography is learned just like anything else. No one ever picked up a guitar and was just able to play. The greats sat in a room for years to be the artists that they are. Start small, shoot a few $1,000 to $1,500 weddings while working your day job and use the extra money to buy good cameras and good lenses and then get serious about your pricing. Also during that time, read a book on business every two weeks, take business people in your area that are killing it out to coffee and learn anything that you can, work with other photographers that you highly respect in any way that you can to learn all about the industry, begin networking with all the key people that are doing weddings in the price range that you want to be in. That is where I would start (and did).

You can do it and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise!!

-Zach



Nov 30, 2008 at 11:46 PM
dayinmay
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p.1 #7 · Could I be a second shooter?


Thank you for all the positive and helpful comments! Thanks especially for the encouragement and tips on networking. I've started to get in touch with some people in my area, so it's good to know I'm on the right track.

I'm relieved to hear the comments about the gear (possibility of borrowing main photographer's + upgrade as needed/as justified) - I was expecting to get laughed off the forums! *sheepish grin* But I'll invest in a 50 mm 1.4 over Christmas to at least get going.

I'm willing to bet that the business aspect often overshadows the photography itself, so I'll definitely need to do some more research in that area before giving up my day job. Hopefully I can build up some good contacts over these winter months before wedding season hits again! [Not sure how it is for the folks down south, but there are a lot less weddings in the winter here in Canada!]



Dec 01, 2008 at 12:05 PM
The Grays
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p.1 #8 · Could I be a second shooter?


Things slow down here too in Nashville a bit in the winter. If you are looking for some great business books to read over the holidays, I would recommend;

Guerrilla Marketing in 30 days by Jay Levinson (make sure it is a current addition)

48 Days to the work you love by Dan Miller (all about getting paid good money to do what you love)

How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie

Good to Great by Jim Collins

The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey (all about having good personal financial success)

These are all great books and have helped us tremendously!!

-Zach




Dec 01, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Andrew Welsh
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p.1 #9 · Could I be a second shooter?


I have to admit, your details shots are collectively better than anything I've done in one single wedding, and I've shot 20. I also would hire you on as a 2nd shooter.

Gear wise, I started with a Rebel XT. Produced the same quality images as a 20D (same sensor). Similarly, an XTi will give the same photographic results as a 40D, and that's more than acceptable for weddings-- Sam Hassass uses a 40D primarily. If you stick to weddings, the main reason I went from an XT to a 20D was because the XT was falling apart-- it physically cannot take the beating that weddings give to a camera body. The XXD camera's beefiness is a primary feature. The thumb wheel and joystick help a lot too in speeding up your selection of features (focus points etc.)

Lens-wise, you'll need some telephoto. I would even skimp and just get a 50/1.8 for now (instead of the 1.4), invest in a Sigma 24-70/2.8 zoom ($300 used for the macro version) instead, get a good flash (Sigma EF-500 Super if you can find one, $200 used) and some sort of telephoto.. 85/1.8 is a good start ($300 used) or maybe a 100/2 or 100/2.8 macro. The FM buy and sell board is a superb resource for this.

Overall, I would recommend buying equipment used. You can sell it back for almost the same price if you decide WP is not for you. You can sell it back for almost the same price when you eventually upgrade if WP *is* for you.

A flash is crucial. Even f/1.2 lenses have a hard time at some receptions. The sigma flash in particular is half the price of a Canon counterpart and it has the ever important flash assist beam which will be needed with the less-than-great lenses.

The last part is get jobs as 2nd shooter and practice practice practice. Offer to intern for free for a couple of weddings-- that's what I did. Got me enough of a portfolio to land my own solo wedding my first full year out.



Dec 01, 2008 at 02:38 PM
XPO239
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p.1 #10 · Could I be a second shooter?


Zach,

Can I move out to Nashville and be your slave for a year? :-) Your images are crazy amazing!

-ari



Dec 02, 2008 at 04:17 AM
XPO239
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p.1 #11 · Could I be a second shooter?


Dayinmay,

Yeah, these are some great advices. Start off with $500,$1000 weddings and save money to buy better gear. I started off with a Nikon d50, now I have a D3 and some pretty neat lens. Although the gear helps, it's not the gear that makes the picture, it's the photograher. Even with all my gear, I can't seem to match the caliber of the photogs on this forum. I guess practice makes perfect.
The XSI is a great camera. Use it untill it breaks. I would also recomend getting a second body as backup just in case your main camera fails. Don't learn the hard way like me. :-| Good luck man.

-ari



Dec 02, 2008 at 04:29 AM
DB
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p.1 #12 · Could I be a second shooter?


Everything that Andrew said. And the Grays siad. Except I personally have the 28-75 2.8 Tamron -- and I love it. It's super-sharp. But the macro version sigma may be better.

Andrew - dang you're lucky. I did my first two weddings for free and can only use the shots in print. The third wedding I was paid for, but again -- only using shots in print (which is better than many second shooters get!). But the experience is worth not being able to use the shots...





Dec 02, 2008 at 09:57 AM
dayinmay
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p.1 #13 · Could I be a second shooter?


Lots of requests for second shooters on the board in the past 24 hours -- why couldn't they be in Toronto, why!!

Thanks for the feedback on specific books, gear recommendations and great pieces of advice. I've started a list to keep track of everything because Excel spreadsheets are fantastical!

Buying used and/or third party lenses sounds like a good way to go. How would I test a lens to make sure it's a good copy? Take photos of brick walls to check pin cushioning...shoot high contrast-y things at various aperatures to look for vignetting/soft focusing...? I'll have to do more Googling on this.

Deb - This is off-topic and going to sound cheesy, but I was peeking at your profile and I totally know what you mean about the boredom thing and engineering thing!!! (mech eng/automotive for me)

Andrew - Thanks for the ego boost about my detail shots. I really admire the way you capture candid emotional moments so naturally in your photos (people laughing hilariously, facial expressions) - to me, that would be more difficult to do since people don't stay still like objects do.




Dec 03, 2008 at 09:10 AM
coffee-black
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p.1 #14 · Could I be a second shooter?


Both your equipment and images are fine. If you go into this business, always keep one thing in mind...

"If you don't like your images, getting more equipment won't help." Photography can be an endless money-pit or things you think you 'need.' Funny thing is, it is not about the equipment, but what you can do with it. Master the stuff you have, then add more.

If you had $3000 budgeted for your new business, Take $1000 for marketing and sale tools--$1000 on educational tools and the last $1000 on equipment. Far too many blow their budgets on all equipment.

Work on techniques. Good photography techniques have not changed in some time. They may now have "catchy" names, but the core of the technique has not.

Some of your images are soft. My guess is it is NOT the equipment, but shooting technique. Get used to using your manual settings. This will help in your overall understanding of photography.

Work on processing. In vogue now are the multiple image composites with a logo. Take 3 or 4 of your images...put them on a single composite...then add a logo. You'll look like you've been doing this for years.

Best of luck.



Dec 03, 2008 at 09:58 AM
DB
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p.1 #15 · Could I be a second shooter?


dayinmay wrote:
Lots of requests for second shooters on the board in the past 24 hours -- why couldn't they be in Toronto, why!!

Buying used and/or third party lenses sounds like a good way to go. How would I test a lens to make sure it's a good copy? Take photos of brick walls to check pin cushioning...shoot high contrast-y things at various aperatures to look for vignetting/soft focusing...? I'll have to do more Googling on this.

Deb - This is off-topic and going to sound cheesy, but I was peeking at your profile and I totally know what you mean about
...Show more

I'm with you on the lens test issue. One of my new lenses only took out of focus shots on my last shoot. Could be my technique, but I haven't had any problems with my other lens at the same focal length. If anyone has any advice on how to test for this, let's hear it! also, I think many lenses are slightly softer at their extremities (like an f/1.8 lens will be soft at 1.8 and 22). But I don't know how to test for this either. Any slight recompose on a focus point could through a picture off if the camera is really close to the subject...

As far as second shooting goes, I'm in the same boat. People have actually started choosing me over the photographer I used to second shoot with. So that's been interesting. Right now I'm preparing to send out a cover letter, resume, and reference list along with one nice print and a CD of images to some of the photographers in the area. Hopefully I'll get a few leads. Unfortunately many photographers either have a non-compete clause or won't let you use the images you take. I figure if I'm making money and not using the images, that's still more experience and more money for equipment. but that also means I only have one wedding that I can use on my website...

I just found out that Katie DiSimone got her MS in Civil and Environmental Engineering. There must be quite a few more of us here than I thought! My dad just said that if his business goes under, he's working for me. Not sure how that will work, but since we both work for the same business right now, maybe that's a plan... Yeah, engineering is really tough to stick to. I just need to get my PE (1.5 years).



Dec 03, 2008 at 10:23 AM
DB
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p.1 #16 · Could I be a second shooter?


coffee-black wrote:
Both your equipment and images are fine. If you go into this business, always keep one thing in mind...

"If you don't like your images, getting more equipment won't help." Photography can be an endless money-pit or things you think you 'need.' Funny thing is, it is not about the equipment, but what you can do with it. Master the stuff you have, then add more.

If you had $3000 budgeted for your new business, Take $1000 for marketing and sale tools--$1000 on educational tools and the last $1000 on equipment. Far too many blow their budgets on all equipment.

Work on techniques.
...Show more

This is all really great advice. I spent ~$850 on a workshop (Almost Alone with David Williams) and a bit more on the One Light Workshop DVD. I highly recommend both. I was planning on going to the Shoot with Beckstead Intensive workshop in Birmingham next week, but I can't swing the funds. Really wish I could, esp since most of the workshops in 2009 will be out of the US. I think the technique I have learned from both workshops (well, the DVD is like a workshop) have helped me tremendously.

You need enough equipment to get the job done -- so make sure you have enough backup stuff. That's important. 2 camera bodies, lots of memory, a few flashes, etc. But beyond that I know quite a few togs on the board that do weddings without extensive lighting. I, for one, want to master off-camera lighting, but I'm trying to do it "budget style" - so I purchased a few lightstands, some cheap ebay triggers (will get two PWs asap), and I am using strobes. Master natural lighting first -- There are a few primarily natural light photographers who I admire a LOT. They use light to their advantage. Then work your way to supplementing that light. I'm terrible with it now, but having some fun!

As far as equipment goes, cover your bases at a minimum -- I started with an 85 f/1.8, 70-200 f/4, and 28-75 f/2.8 Tamron. Not enough for low-light photography, but I could cover every focal length I needed. I upgraded to the 70-200 f/2.8 IS and have a 28 f/1.8 and 50 f/1.8 to cover low light situations. I'd love to get the 35L and 135L, but those are unnecessary as of now. In your situation, however, you could forgo the 70-200 and maybe get the 135 -- that would give you a good low-light lens at that focual length. But if you are primarily second shooting, you don't need as much equipment.

One thing I need to work on is my PP skills. I'm updating my LR to 2.0. I need to get PS, but I guess that's something I can get later (since I have a very old version on my husband's computer). Investing in skills and business is definitely teh right way to go. Just don't forego having enough equipment to cover yourself in an emergency.



Dec 03, 2008 at 10:51 AM
coffee-black
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p.1 #17 · Could I be a second shooter?


Deb Brundage wrote:
Off camera lighting is really nothing more than studio lighting done in the field. The most important thing with which to concentrate is not the light, but the shadow. Look at some of the older techniques of the 30's and 40's--really dramatic lighting styles which are made much easier with today's technology. Again, it is nothing new. It is simply being done more now and being labeled catchy things by younger photographers.

Don't underestimate equipment rentals. There are a lot of places doing this now. Weddings provide enough lead time that scheduling rental lenses, slaves, etc is easy. Before I
...Show more



Dec 03, 2008 at 11:15 AM
coffee-black
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p.1 #18 · Could I be a second shooter?


sorry, new at the FM forum and [obviously] haven't mastered the "quoted note"


Dec 03, 2008 at 11:16 AM
The Grays
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p.1 #19 · Could I be a second shooter?


Aw.. thanks man! Appreciate that! Come out to Nashville anytime and we can hang!! Seriously!!

-Zach



Dec 03, 2008 at 11:52 AM





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