Over analyzing....

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Archive 2008 · Over analyzing....

APY_JR
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p.1 #1 · Over analyzing....

Look at the picture instantly.

Don't dwell on it... snag your first impression (color, balance, composition)

Does it move you or not?

That's it!

Albert

Nov 26, 2008 at 06:29 PM

Pandacat
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p.1 #2 · Over analyzing....

What picture?

Nov 26, 2008 at 06:43 PM

APY_JR
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p.1 #3 · Over analyzing....

Any picture you see on this forum!

Generally applicaple!

Albert

Nov 26, 2008 at 06:47 PM

radioblurs
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p.1 #4 · Over analyzing....

i agree, albert, that you CAN over analyze a shot but at the same time, if you know your fundamentals of portraiture, you can look at a portrait for 30 seconds and provide a somewhat in-depth analysis-i don't think that overanalyzing a shot is the same as studying a shot-do you?

it's certainly not necessary to overanalyze snapshots and fun family moments, but serious portraiture is another thing (to me, at least)-i want to shoot like the greats and without learning from my mistakes and the mistakes of others, i won't be able to grow-thus, i appreciate analysis from my peers here in the forum

just another perspective to consider-thanks for the food for thought the day before we think about food

daniel

Nov 26, 2008 at 07:24 PM

RianFlynn
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p.1 #5 · Over analyzing....

I don't think thats necessarily true albert. I have non-professional photographer friends for that. I am here to have my work over analyzed so i can perfect my craft!

All the best friend
Rian

Nov 26, 2008 at 07:28 PM

Pandacat
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p.1 #6 · Over analyzing....

Now that I have a better understanding of your post, I will say this... "It Depends." Sometimes I look at a picture and it just turns me off... for whatever reason... and I only view it momentarily. Other times, I see a picture that makes me stop and look.... it may be so bad that it looks like something I've taken and I want to know why it's so bad (the main reason I don't put up many pictures here.. I'm in awe of what I see here). Other pictures I see just make my jaw drop... How Did They Do That??!? And then I "over-analyze" every aspect. And I read what others say about the shot. And like Rian says, I try to learn.

And like Daniel says, my thoughts now turn to food. Goodnight Gracie.

Larry

Nov 26, 2008 at 08:33 PM

APY_JR
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p.1 #7 · Over analyzing....

Hi Daniel,

Happry Thanksgiving!

You make some very valid points.
To me... over-analyzing means "how would I have made this my own" or how would "I have done this shot".... while "studying" a shot is a learning process... what "do I like about this shot and how did the photographer create" these effects.
I agree with you here.

To appreciate a shot as the artist saw it at capture is virtually impossible.
We all see an image in "the photographer's place" or as if WE were the shooter...
which means a successful photographer appeals to a higher percentage of the audience.

Which leads me to another question... why do we shoot? For ourselves... or for others?

For you it's seroius portraiture... for others it's architechtural, landscape or macro work.

Really... beyond nailing the exposure... anything goes.... unless you are trying to emulate someone elses work.

I guess all I'm saying is "how does Albert (or Daniel or Ryan) want to shoot it" instead of "how would Rembrandt have shot it?"

I know I'm rambling...

Albert

radioblurs wrote:
i agree, albert, that you CAN over analyze a shot but at the same time, if you know your fundamentals of portraiture, you can look at a portrait for 30 seconds and provide a somewhat in-depth analysis-i don't think that overanalyzing a shot is the same as studying a shot-do you?

it's certainly not necessary to overanalyze snapshots and fun family moments, but serious portraiture is another thing (to me, at least)-i want to shoot like the greats and without learning from my mistakes and the mistakes of others, i won't be able to grow-thus, i appreciate analysis from my peers here in the forum

just another perspective to consider-thanks for the food for thought the day before we think about food

daniel

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:15 AM

MSC
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p.1 #8 · Over analyzing....

RianFlynn wrote:
I don't think thats necessarily true albert. I have non-professional photographer friends for that. I am here to have my work over analyzed so i can perfect my craft!

All the best friend
Rian

Yep, love to have stuff reviewed with as much detail as anyone cares to provide. One of the best learning tools out there. Even nit-picky stuff is greatly appreciated because every shot can be improved.

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:21 AM

APY_JR
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p.1 #9 · Over analyzing....

Hi Rian,

Perfect your craft to whose standards... your peers'... or yours?

I don't believe photographical creativity is a mathematical formula that can be passed down and repeated.
That's what makes you one of the "masters"... your individuality... don't you think?
Or do you want your work to look like someone you admire?

Do you critque a photo based on what YOU like... or what someone's written that it's supposed to look like?

I was SO confident in my abilties until I jumped into the world of internet forums

Albert

RianFlynn wrote:
I don't think thats necessarily true albert. I have non-professional photographer friends for that. I am here to have my work over analyzed so i can perfect my craft!

All the best friend
Rian

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:31 AM

APY_JR
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p.1 #10 · Over analyzing....

And I do too

Love to hear reactions... that's the basic compass that we all need.

But there's the time when you have to separate your own likes from what your critics like.

I choose mine... and I'm sure you do too

Albert

MSC wrote:
RianFlynn wrote:
I don't think thats necessarily true albert. I have non-professional photographer friends for that. I am here to have my work over analyzed so i can perfect my craft!

All the best friend
Rian

Yep, love to have stuff reviewed with as much detail as anyone cares to provide. One of the best learning tools out there. Even nit-picky stuff is greatly appreciated because every shot can be improved.

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:37 AM

MSC
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p.1 #11 · Over analyzing....

Of course...some you will agree with and some you won't. But regardless, it is a learning experience and I want to hear it and most imporatant, always appreciate it...FM is unique and wonderful in this regard. We have newbies to some of the best photogs in the craft and everything in-between here and the opinions of all are both valid and useful. Some critique hard, some just a comment, some focus on a small thing, some on a big thing...but in the end just like in a photography class, you take what you will and leave the rest...it is not like math where there is a right answer and a wrong answer. I read your original post as saying that comments of the 'first impression' variety are more useful or more desirable and I would have to disagree with that.

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:46 AM

liamh
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p.1 #12 · Over analyzing....

APY_JR wrote:
Look at the picture instantly.

You can 'look' all you want. I hope my critiques help fellow photographers to 'see'. Big difference.

Nov 27, 2008 at 04:20 AM

RianFlynn
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p.1 #13 · Over analyzing....

APY_JR wrote:
Hi Rian,

Perfect your craft to whose standards... your peers'... or yours?

I don't believe photographical creativity is a mathematical formula that can be passed down and repeated.
That's what makes you one of the "masters"... your individuality... don't you think?
Or do you want your work to look like someone you admire?

Do you critque a photo based on what YOU like... or what someone's written that it's supposed to look like?

I was SO confident in my abilties until I jumped into the world of internet forums

Albert

If we were talking about another art medium I would completely agree, but photography is a differentness species. i absolutely agree with you in that one should be true to there person artistic choices and expressions, but the technical side of photography needs to be taught or learned through experience.

Aperture, Shutter speed, ISO speed, focal length, White Balance, Dynamic range, Watt seconds, Modifiers, grip, stands, chromatic aberration, levels, curves ect are all part of the technical side of photography. They are your colors and your canvas to express yourself. The better your understanding of these concepts, the more effectively you will be able to express your personal interpretation of the world around you visually.

I don't need a 5 sec glance at my photos from this forum, I need in depth, professional insight in regards to the technical side of photography... leave the artistic interpretation to me!

Photography is as artistic as it is technical.

Now its time for bed! I just got back from an amazing date and I need some sleep!

HAPPY THANKS GIVING

Nov 27, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Steady Hand
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p.1 #14 · Over analyzing....

Hi Albert,

I think I understand your POV.

I also understand those of the others too.

I think that a forum like this typically has more "technical" critiques than any other kind of comment aside from "I like it."

For that reason, I continue to suggest that people posting photos "consider" posting an image in an "impressions" style of discussion. IF the discussion is entirely focused on the "impressions" viewers get from the image, it can lead to interesting "interpretations" of the images. It can also reveal some things that are "strengths" of the image that are different from "technical" issues. Of course, this "impressions" approach is not for everyone. Nor does it necessarily lead to lots of impressions. However, I do believe it "fits" almost all photographs. For all photos are images that create some kind of impression on us. Some stronger than others.

When I visit this forum, I assume that people post here looking for some tips or comments. Why else post the photos?

The type of comments I look for are focused on the emotional or thinking impressions and NOT on the technical aspects. This is because I find these more important to me as an artist and more satisfying in the long run as I create images. That word "artist" often "irks" photographers.

The fact is, I will be using several of my "photographs" to make "paintings" (with real brushes and paints). So for me, the "emotional or thought content" is more important than the "technicals" in my own photography.

However, it is my belief that more photographers (either pros or amateurs) would find their own photography more satisfying if they devoted more time and effort to capturing emotion and asked for more "impressions" rather than technical critiques. Knowing how people "respond" to an image is more important to me, rather than knowing if the viewers like the bokeh or lens used or similar technical aspects or observations.

Nov 27, 2008 at 01:23 PM

Jim Rickards
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p.1 #15 · Over analyzing....

Over analyzing - like beauty - may be in the eye of the beholder.

So what is "over analyzing to one person, may be helpful insight from a fresh pair of eyes, to another poster.

I am a frequent critique writer on this forum. My goal is to assist others by:

providing insight - things that I notice that they may not have.
providing impressions when I viewed the picture.
discussing setups - cause and effect issues with lighting, cropping, posing and all the other stuff we notice.

If all this comes across as over analyzing to some, I'm OK with that. Posts to discussion forums are read by many people. Sometimes the OP will get benefit, sometimes other readers will. Sometimes noboby.

Albert, I also like your method - ( look at the picture instantly, - give an impression.) That's a good way to judge a picture too.

Nov 27, 2008 at 01:26 PM

APY_JR
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p.1 #16 · Over analyzing....

A very confident statement Liam!

I'm sure you've helped many others to do just that... to "see"!

Thanks for the response,

Albert

liamh wrote:
APY_JR wrote:
Look at the picture instantly.

You can 'look' all you want. I hope my critiques help fellow photographers to 'see'. Big difference.

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:01 PM

APY_JR
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p.1 #17 · Over analyzing....

FM IS a unique place and I'm glad I stumbled upon it

I think your summation is spot on... it IS like a big photography class... with members from all over the world.

I wouldn't say that the "first impression" is more desirable or more useful even...
but I think it definitely helps an individual learn to focus on a specific creative path.

Some great comments you've made in this thread MSC...

Thanks!

Albert

MSC wrote:
Of course...some you will agree with and some you won't. But regardless, it is a learning experience and I want to hear it and most imporatant, always appreciate it...FM is unique and wonderful in this regard. We have newbies to some of the best photogs in the craft and everything in-between here and the opinions of all are both valid and useful. Some critique hard, some just a comment, some focus on a small thing, some on a big thing...but in the end just like in a photography class, you take what you will and leave the rest...it is not like math where there is a right answer and a wrong answer. I read your original post as saying that comments of the 'first impression' variety are more useful or more desirable and I would have to disagree with that.

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:11 PM

farley
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p.1 #18 · Over analyzing....

We are more comfortable evaluating the technical. It is easier to assess the rules of exposure, lighting, DOF, etc. It is much more difficult to photograph an emotion, and to critique it. Daschund Woof currently has a thread with a photograph that breaks the mold. I Love the photograph. It could be argued however that it is technically imperfect. I am not saying that the technical or the artistic is more critical, but that there are two sides. At times one should be given more weight than the other. Senior pictures should most of the time be technically correct, but a photograph of anger could sacrifice some of the technical. This is an interesting thread. thanks Albert

ted

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:42 PM

APY_JR
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p.1 #19 · Over analyzing....

Hi Steady,

Happy T-Day

You're right of course... why post images if you're not looking for feedback

I like your ideas of looking at an image from a "what's your impression" frame of reference. It DOES encapsulate all aspects of photography I think.... from the technical aspects to the artistic side of the craft.
I say technical (and I know you feel that should not be a strong focal point in evalutating an image) because some aspects of photography (such as lighting) may give a strong first impression (artistic) but will draw you in to explore the image from the more concrete side of light (placement, intensity, color, etc...)

That first quick impression is still very valid however in the sense that your personal like/dislikes needle registers immediately... then you have to ask yourself
"how come?"
If the "first impression needle" registers low on the scale then you simply go on.

I find it hard to critique if the initial emotion is simply not there to begin with.

Albert

Steady Hand wrote:
Hi Albert,

I think I understand your POV.

I also understand those of the others too.

When I visit this forum, I assume that people post here looking for some tips or comments. Why else post the photos?

Nov 27, 2008 at 02:50 PM

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p.1 #20 · Over analyzing....

To critique any work of art you first need to just react to it on an emotional level.

Some great works of art are the result of careful planning and meticulous execution. Others are just happy accidents which are discovered on the editing screen. Which method produces the result isn't really important and often isn't obvious. In fact some of the most effective messages are presented in images carefully planned and skillfully executed to look like unplanned slices of life candidly frozen in time.

But beyond the emotional reaction leading to an opinion of whether you like it or not, if you are curious and want to know WHY you reacted to the image as you did and want to create the same reaction in photos you take in the future you need to apply some form of analysis.

Art criticism, as taught academically in schools and books, follows two basic methods: historical and analytical/perceptual. The historical approach compares the work with those which have preceded it and likely influenced the author of the new work. In that context you might compare a photo similar in style to Diane Arbus or Ansel Adams to specific examples of their work. The analytical / perceptual method tries to discover what created the reaction to message of the image by making an inventory of its elements and examining how they relate to each other.

Being able to react emotionally to an image and also remember what attracted and held attention and when you grasped the intended message are not mutually exclusive. I'm known to give rather detailed and analytical critiques, but they are based completely on how I react on an emotional level to the image. My comments are usually focused on ways different technique could deliver the INTENDED message in a clearer, less ambiguous way by eliminating unnecessary distractions from what is responsible on a perceptual / emotional level in the human brain for converting a pattern of contrast on a screen or print into the illusion of a real 3D object or living, breathing person.

How we react to content is subjective. Show a photo of a pretty girl to 100 people and most will react and say "I like it" for no other reason that the girl is pretty. Odds are excellent the fewer clothes she is wearing the more enthusiastic the praise will be. But take that same girl, send her to the tattoo parlor for some artwork on face and body and an even dozen body studs and rings and shoot her in the same exact pose and lighting. Poll those same 100 viewers and reactions will vary depending on their views on body modification. But in either case their brains will process the images in similar ways both image-to-image and person-to-person because all people - within a range of variance - have nervous systems which work the same way to react to visual stimulation and connect the image captured by the eyes to stored memories of similar content.

In both cases the photo could be either technically flawless or have much room for improvement without really affecting the emotional reaction to the content. A pretty girl is no less pretty because an unskilled photographer blew the highlights in the skin tones or captured the face at a less than flattering angle. So its very possible to react on an emotional level and really like the content and creative thought behind a message and also see ways the delivery of the message can be improved.

I've been taking photos seriously for over 40 years now and can count on my fingers and toes the number of shots I would consider flawless and without some opportunity for improvement out of the camera. Back in the "good old days" of B&W we'd manipulate contrast relationships with filters during capture and film development then tweek them with dodging, burning and retouching on the print. Today we do the same things in Photoshop.

Sometimes editing is done to correct things which couldn't be controlled or were overlooked when shooting. But the act of analyzing, self-critiquing and seeing ways to possibly improve the last photo I took is what allows me to see ways I can take the next one better and grow in the the craft. That same philosophy underlies the tutorials I write and critiques I provide: the assumption that there is always opportunity for improvement and growth, if only just to try something different to see if it works more effectively or not.

The act of critiquing a someone else's photo is mutually beneficial. I'm more verbal than visual so I very often see and comment on images I would never in a million years think of or bother to take. But taking the time to understand why I liked it, and what make it resonate for me gets filed away and eventually incorporated at some point in a photo I take, helping to make my work more creative: not in the sense of imitation but rather just opening my mind to consider different ways to deliver messages in photos. That's exactly what makes the work of some of the regular posters here so much fun to look at and comment on.

Some people, regardless of skill level and experience take criticism of craft aspects and differences of opinion on reaction to content well, and others don't. In some cases its because they have a clear artistic vision which accepts and incorporates technical imperfections as part of the artistic expression of the message and others are just rude and clueless. It usually one takes only one critique to discover if someone is rude and clueless. Grasping that less than perfect technique is an intentional part of photographer's artistic approach requires seeing a pattern in a body of work.

Being able to put a single work in to context of an overall style is what differentiates artists like Jackson Pollock from a 2 year-old with his first box of Crayons: the end result might look similar but the creative intent and intended message are radically different. When does a photo transcend from slice of life "snapshot" to art? When it resonates emotionally with enough viewers in both a positive and negative way to attract critical acclaim and financial remuneration. The quickest path to fame as an artist was formerly to be recognized by a patron or recognized critic. Nowadays its how many hits a web page has or how many people phone it to vote for the singer or dancers in the competition.

Edited on Nov 27, 2008 at 03:07 PM · View previous versions

Nov 27, 2008 at 03:04 PM

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