Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!? - FM Forums

Register · Search · Software · Join Upload & Sell · Hosting

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

FM Forums \| Alternative Gear & Lenses \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 end

Archive 2008 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #1 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

OK, so I've shot a bunch with my 50mm 1.8 over the past few years... and never had really great success approaching minimum focusing distance, at wide apertures. I blamed it on the AF accuracy....

Now I've got my new (old) Rokkor 58mm 1.4 courtesy of our esteemed James Buchanan and I can tell it works perfectly. The problem I'm still having is a very low keeper count when handheld.

I SWEAR I've seen other people do this.... shouldn't I be able to shoot handheld, at 1.4, 58mm, at distances of 4-5 feet and get sharp photos? I understand the DOF is less than an inch - I've looked it up. But I don't FEEL like my body is moving before I hit the shutter.

I certainly understand I can get a focusing screen that will help with the focusing part, but I don't think that's the problem here (although I'm not sure). I think I'm just moving.

How do other people do this?!?! How can one stay still enough or keep the camera stable enough to shoot at these apertures? What's the trick?

Thanks
-Glenn

Nov 23, 2008 at 01:53 AM

Ed Sawyer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #2 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Focus screen helps a lot. Stock screen only shows DOF to about 2.8, so you can be off but it will still look in focus on the screen. the EC-s or EE-s is the preferred one for fast glass. It makes a big difference you can see, honestly. I have one and wouldn't go back to the stock screen for this purpose. The E*-s screen is about 2 stops difference, so it will show about 2 stops less DOF. It has a steeper parabola of acceptable focus, for the technical amongst us.

-Ed

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:11 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #3 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Thanks. My challenge is - with my 1D II - I mostly shoot with AF lenses, so I don't want to do anything that would impact AF performance with the standard EF lenses.

Someone recommended the Ec-c4 - how is that different than what you recommend below? There is surprisingly little information online about these focus screens (at least that I've found).

Thanks

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:16 AM

HansenTsang
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #4 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

It is not a matter of you staying still. You simply have to use a higher shutter speed.

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:17 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #5 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Hmm. You mean higher than normally required to stop motion?

i.e. if I USUALLY require 1/100th of a second to eliminate camera shake, I should shoot at faster speeds, due to the wider apertures?

That's a new one for me, I never thought of that. I'll give it a try - thanks!

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:27 AM

JohnJ
Online
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

What shutter speeds are you using? I know that I need 1/250th, even with a 50mm, to ensure sharpness. That old '1/focal length' nugget will get you into more trouble than it's worth. Find out what YOU are capable of and forget about everyone else's tales about how low a shutter speed they can shoot at!

JJ

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:32 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #7 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

I hear you - I would say, for me, at 50mm on my 1D, I woudl get good results at 1/100th or faster (preferrably 1/125th).

Does the wider aperture mean I would need faster shutter speeds? Are we saying teh more shallow DOF from the wider aperture woudl somehow exaggerate camera shake?

Thanks

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:34 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #8 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Oh one clarification that impacts the shutter speed idea - I am still having problems even with flash. It DOES seem less severe (more keepers) but still a low keeper rate.

Thanks
-Glenn

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:35 AM

PhotoMaximum
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

I went through all this with a 5D, the Takumar 50/1.4 and Rokkor 58/1.2 lenses. I did numerous focus tests and then ordered ten different Canon focus screen shims/washers followed by more tests before installing the right shim/washer that gives me accurate focus at 1.2...

Holy run on sentence Batman...

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:51 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #10 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Well.... which one was it? :-)

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:58 AM

HansenTsang
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Fast prime lens will be a little less sharp at wide open aperture no matter what. They are designed to let a lot of light in under low light condition. Only a very few fast primes are designed for wide open sharpness. So you will have to compromise a little. Close the aperture down to f2.0 and bump up the shutter speed a little and you will see a drastic increase in sharpness.

Nov 23, 2008 at 04:43 AM

Tariq Gibran
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #12 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

My 58 1.4 Rokkor was not sharp at all wide open, or even a few stops down. I suspect it is just the nature of this particular lens. I think you may have to try another lens known to be decently sharp wide open or one stop down before ruling out the lens as the culprit.

Nov 23, 2008 at 04:52 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #13 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Hansen - you are making sense. I also think I'm asking for trouble if I am looking for a sharp shot in soft light - but I know when I know when a shot is out of focus or has camera shake.

In this case, it seems to be a mix of both. Some of these shots have nothing in focus, others are back-focused or front-focused.

Thanks

Nov 23, 2008 at 04:54 AM

Ed Sawyer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #14 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

EC-CIV is a more all purpose screen for the 1D3 cameras, and would probably work fine with 1d2. it's not as steep a parabola of focus as the EC-s however. EC-CIV will be brighter though. If your lenses are all f2.8 or faster you won't notice much if any difference in viewfinder brightness.

no screen affects AF ability since it's all done before the light gets to the screen anyway.

-Ed

Nov 23, 2008 at 04:57 AM

JimBuchanan
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #15 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Canon certainly doesn't make it easy on us manual focus lens users. I have certainly had a time getting accurate focus on my XSi, XTi, etc., but once I got it right with the focus screens, it is very rewarding. Manual focus lenses require the user to know their camera and its viewfinder, similiar to the rangefinder experience.

I would think there are several culprits to getting that effective shot with a f/1.4 lens. First there would be effective focus, and then fast enough shutter speed to eliminate camera shake or subject movement. On focusing, I always bring focus back, then approach the focal point from near. If I know I am close to a near focus point, I may leave the lens alone and move forward an inch, shoot, then back an inch,shoot, and basically focus bracket.

I won't speak for the absolute sharpness of the MC58/1.4, just yet, as I'm revisiting the mark compared to the MC58/1.2 and MC50/1.4, which all 3 sharpen up nicely when stopped down, but the real character of this lens is in its apparent sharpness. I'm suspecting the extra 8mm gives the edge to a slightly more shallow depth of field, than the 50mm. This makes for a slightly more challenging focal point.

Nov 23, 2008 at 07:08 AM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #16 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

I've gotten a few test shots with the 58mm 1.4 - enough that I'd say I think the lens is certainly sharp ENOUGH wide open (at least in the center). I don't expect it to be tack sharp.

I think it's more down to technique, so I'm gonig to try the focus bracketing and do what I can to get faster shutter speeds.

Thanks

Nov 23, 2008 at 02:05 PM

Mike Ganz
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #17 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

PhotoMaximum wrote:
I went through all this with a 5D, the Takumar 50/1.4 and Rokkor 58/1.2 lenses. I did numerous focus tests and then ordered ten different Canon focus screen shims/washers followed by more tests before installing the right shim/washer that gives me accurate focus at 1.2...

Holy run on sentence Batman...

Ditto on that. I didn't think about shimming the focus screen in my 5D once I had switched it out to the Ee-S. All my landscape shots were fine due to the smaller apertures/greater DOF. The focus issue only came to light when I was shooting the Takumar 50/1.4 and the Rokkor 58/1.2 at wide open or very close to it...very hard to nail the focus, even with high shutter speeds to rule out shake. After shimming, I can now nail the focus on the first shot without the need for focus bracketing.

As far as what size washer/shim is needed, it all depends. I ended up using a #018 since my 5D was backfocusing a little bit. Max (PhotoMaximum) ended up using a #005 if I remember correctly. A good way to check front/back focus is to lay a ruler down, focus on a number marking, and shoot at an angle (preferably on a tripod). If backfocusing, you'll need a thicker shim/washer than what's in your camera; if front focusing, the opposite holds true. First thing though is to switch out your screen, then its a matter of shoot and compare. There are a couple of threads here that I started on this very topic...

EDIT: here's one...
Takumar 50/1.4 focus issues

And another...Shim/Washer results

Thread with Canon Washer part numbers...Washer/Shim Part Numbers

NOTE: The part numbers in the above thread are for the 5D body...I can't say for sure if these washers are compatible with your body. For that, you'd have to call Canon (the parts department phone number is in the thread). If you ask for 'shims', the person on the other end of the line probably won't know what you're talking about. After explaining what I needed, I learned that Canon refers to them as "washer, finder back adjust". Ask for focus screen washers and you'll be good.

Nov 23, 2008 at 02:25 PM

Tariq Gibran
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #18 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

TVRguy wrote:
I've gotten a few test shots with the 58mm 1.4 - enough that I'd say I think the lens is certainly sharp ENOUGH wide open (at least in the center). I don't expect it to be tack sharp.

I think it's more down to technique, so I'm gonig to try the focus bracketing and do what I can to get faster shutter speeds.

Thanks

The one I have must be a very poor sample then as it did not sharpen up until about F5.6!

Nov 23, 2008 at 03:50 PM

edwardkaraa
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #19 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

EC-A is the way to go. It doesn't affect AF, but does affect the metering as you cannot use spot reliably.

Nov 23, 2008 at 04:08 PM

wayne seltzer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #20 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

+1 what Mike says about using the tripod and ruler. Tripod eliminates any camera shake factor and then you can focus bracket to determine how much your viewfinder screen is off and making you front or back focus.
You should also be able to determine in your test shots the plane of focus and see if it is consistently in front or behind what your target was.

Nov 23, 2008 at 05:25 PM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #21 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

well... here is a sample of what I'd call a reasonably sharp shot. I BELIEVE it is "more likely" to front-focus, which may have happened slightly in this shot. Either way, if I could get results like this with people, handheld, I'd be pretty happy.

This was wide open (POSSIBLY F/2 but I"m pretty sure wide open). I took a series starting wide open, this was the first shot. Braced my elbows on the countertop.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

to downlaod the whole file. remove the space at the beginning of the URL:
h ttp://images42.fotki.com/v1380/filepE4b/1668d/2/242648/6955734/RokkorSample002.jpg

This was processed from RAW using Capture One, with auto-correct. The contrast boost helped a lot, wide open this lens has mediocre contrast and color.

I will try the ruler test with a tripod to figure out the pattern.

Thanks

Nov 23, 2008 at 05:50 PM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #22 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

Ok - now I"m getting somewhere... :-) These are with available light, wide open at 1.4:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The "macro rocking" method seems to work best. Still mostly throwaway... but now getting some shots that look pretty good.

And the lens is PLENTY sharp - these are WIDE OPEN. Contrast and color are not great at f/1.4 but that is manageable.

full download:
ht tp://images48.fotki.com/v1406/filek56y/1668d/2/242648/6955734/RokkorSample008.jpg

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

full download:
ht tp://images48.fotki.com/v1406/file4QyN/1668d/2/242648/6955734/RokkorSample007.jpg

Another:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

whole file:
ht tp://images46.fotki.com/v1413/file5PP2/1668d/2/242648/6955734/RokkorSample003.jpg

Thanks
-Glenn

Nov 23, 2008 at 07:18 PM

Mike Ganz
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #23 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

TVRguy wrote:
Ok - now I"m getting somewhere... :-)

You should still give consideration to a focus screen that's more conducive to manual focusing...you'll be able to focus that much quicker (without the macro 'rocking'), and your keeper rate will jump up significantly.

Nov 23, 2008 at 07:26 PM

TVRguy
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #24 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

I agree, Mike. I would like to be able to shoot more spontaneously...

So now I've just got to pick the right one :-)

Thanks
-Glenn

Nov 23, 2008 at 07:41 PM

sworth
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #25 · Wide aperture shooting - what's the trick?!?!?

It helps to use just one focus point. That way, you know exactly what AF is locking in on.

Nov 23, 2008 at 07:59 PM


FM Forums \| Alternative Gear & Lenses \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end