Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

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marino420td
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p.1 #1 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I've been lurking and learning from this forum for a while now. But I still can't seem to get tack sharp shots of my son's baseball action.

I shoot with a Canon 30d and a Canon 70-200 F4 L lense equipped with a hood. I always have to shoot through a chain link fence.

I set the camera as follows:

AV mode
Center point focus
A1 Servo
ISO 400- typically shoot on bright, sunny days
EV +1/3 or +2/3 to eliminate shadows on faces

Here are some examples of my best from the past two weekends.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

ISO 400
F8
1/800

This image is copyrighted by the owner

ISO 400
F7
1/1250

This image is copyrighted by the owner

ISO 400
F8
1/500

This is by far my best shot. Is it because I'm so much closer to the catcher or did I just nail it?

This image is copyrighted by the owner

ISO 400
F4.5
1/1600

All shots are cropped, sharpened and have levels adjusted in Photoshop.

Any help or suggestions are much appreciated.

Oct 07, 2008 at 06:21 PM

wilrobking
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p.1 #2 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I know this sounds counter intuitive but I shoot wide open or close to it even during the day (usually at f/2.8 - f/3.5) If you have good glass, you can still get sharp images wide open. Shooting wide open blurs out the background which only accentuates the sharpness of the subject. Your shots aren't bad but just too much background clutter. Also the right amount of smart sharpen or USM helps too.
I got these shots at f/2.8 and f/3.5

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Oct 07, 2008 at 06:31 PM

seanscarmack
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p.1 #3 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

im really not sure why your not getting TAC sharp shots for baseball...ive shot baseball and never had a problem, my only guess would be your lense..maybe look for 2.8

lasts ones the best bc there is ZERO movement, no sign of blur or camera shake. if the dust from the catch could POP out more thatd make the shot that make better, maybe try making a new layer and adjust some settings then just mask them together, IDK...just tryin to help

not jacking thread but if you want to see some shots of mine to maybe get the feel for things or w/e, go here

these are pretty SHARP and i only used a nikon d40 with a 70-300 f4?? lense

http://sms-racing.com/Sports/502796

Oct 07, 2008 at 06:35 PM

marino420td
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p.1 #4 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

wilrobking- I love that football shot. What lense was used?

I had my lense stopped down because I thought that would keep more of the image in sharp focus, resulting in a sharper overall shot. I'll try wide open and see if they improve.

Are my camera settings ok?

seanscarmack- I would love to have a 2.8 but don't have the cheddar at this time. I'm stuck with my F4 for now.

Oct 07, 2008 at 06:52 PM

Joe Tompkins
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p.1 #5 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

It looks like you have some motion blur, can you get your shutter speeds
up a little bit more by opening up the lens? Shoot at f4 and see.

Oct 07, 2008 at 07:20 PM

bobbyz
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p.1 #6 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Since you shooting through the fence, I would shoot wide open at f4. That will also give you higher ss.

Oct 07, 2008 at 08:16 PM

DannWunderlich
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p.1 #7 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/629940/0?keyword=tack,sharp#5576309

that helped me alot when i needed help with this topic

good luck

Oct 07, 2008 at 08:32 PM

gtjohnson
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p.1 #8 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

+1 on the motion blur. I have that same lens and it has produced some of the sharpest shots I've taken (which puts it at the top of a very small heap). Unless you have a dreadful copy, I'd rule out the lens as a factor. Note that while the catcher is standing still in the last photo, the shutter speed is also the highest of the bunch. I think you'll find that wide open is the way to go.

Then again ... I'm a guy that said Marino would never make it in the pros ... so take this for what it's worth

Oct 07, 2008 at 08:47 PM

marino420td
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p.1 #9 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Thanks Dann. I have read that thread and that is why I have not been shooting at F4 with my lense. I'm wondering how much of a factor the distance to my subject is? From my typical shooting location, a runner on first base would be approximately 80 to 90 feet away.

Oct 07, 2008 at 09:01 PM

P Alesse
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p.1 #10 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I'll throw some additional ideas out there to see if it's possible...

First off, I really think they are fine, but if looking for that mad crazy MacAteerian sharpness and your are judging your photos based on this one game, I'll give you some thoughts...

1) Skin fields with no grass and harsh sun can cause some problems with the AF system on some cameras. I have no formal documentation on this, just past experience. The shadowed areas under the helmets are more susceptible to this phenomenon. Shoot a game with a grass infield under an overcast sky and let me know how you make out.

2) Shooting through a fence can cause your images to be a bit soft. Not bad, but not razor sharp either.

3) Are you shooting backlit at all? That can sometimes render images a bit soft.

4) Finally, how much are you cropping these. Yes, closer subjects with less cropping gives more liberal room for post processing without introducing artifacts, so consider this as well.

Oct 07, 2008 at 09:22 PM

marino420td
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p.1 #11 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

gtjohnson- thanks for the comments but how dare you question Marino's ability

Paul, your images are what I'm striving to duplicate so I appreciate your feedback. As far as the camera settings I mentioned above, am I on track? Should I bump my ISO, open the lense to F4 to get faster shutter? The lense takes sharp photos so I know there is no problem with it.

1. unfortunately, most of the fields he plays on are all dirt infields. Some tournaments are played on nicer fields with grass but that is not the norm.

2. I hate shooting through the fence. I feel I have to shoot players while they are standing in one spot or I will not get a good shot. I have not been able to get a single shot of a kid fielding a ball that I would call good. I just can't seem to pan through the openings of the fence without getting part of the fence in the image.

3. Not usually backlit. Mostly early afternoon sun directly overhead.

4. These really are not cropped that much. Below are the original images straight out of the camera.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Oct 08, 2008 at 01:16 AM

Scott Sewell
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p.1 #12 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I don't think these are that bad, either. I'd say these are fairly heavy crops, though, which will affect sharpness.

Often, when I've got plenty of light I'll stop down a bit for sports action (maybe shoot f4 on a 400/f2.8 on a bright sunny day), but when I see someone stop down to something like f8 I wonder why they don't just shoot with a $200 P&S. No offense; that's just what the images usually look like with those settings.

So, shoot at f4 next time and see what you get. If anything you'll reduce the motion blur.

Good luck.

Oct 08, 2008 at 03:24 AM

Bill Wood
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p.1 #13 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I agree that f8 is too much, you need a higher shutter speed. On a day like this I would not go higher then ISO 400 there is no need. That is a pretty heavy crop also there is a limit to the sharpness cropping down.

Where are you putting the center focus point? The camera needs contrast. If it is in the blue/black of the jersey the camera will struggle. I usually go for the spot where skin meets the shirt on the neck.

Go for 1250 lowest shutter speed and I'll bet this will clear up a bit and ask the coach to shoot from the dugout opening for a couple innings.

If you have not read the shooting LL baseball guide Paul put together you should.

It is at the top of the page left under sports corner resource. I re-read it at the beginning of every season.

Here is a link

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/Sports_links.htm

Good luck!

Oct 08, 2008 at 12:43 PM

bobbyz
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p.1 #14 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Looking at the exif in the last 3 images, you are not even zooming in to 200mm. That's why you got all this dead space around your subject. Stick the zoom to 200mm and leave it there. That will also improve the sharpness as subject is filling more of the frame and from what I have seen you will get better AF performance out of your camera.

Also I think there is no DOF problem here. Sure stopping down helps with sharpness but you can still get super sharp shots wide open with good glass. And I believe 70-200mmf 4 IS is one of them, maybe not in same league as canon superteles. Problem could be 30d. These shots look like what I would get from my 30d. Using same lens (500mm f4 IS and 70-200mm f2.8 non IS) on 1dmk2 will give me much sharper images.

Oct 08, 2008 at 02:12 PM

gtjohnson
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p.1 #15 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

marino420td,

Scott and bobbyz bring up a great point. I'm strictly (some would say barely) a hobby shooter and I look to this forum for help just as you are here.

One of the best tips I got here was to shoot tight, meaning zoom in as close as you can on your subject. That tip alone has made a substantial difference in the quality of my photos. I assume that it has to do with getting more pixels in the actual subject which will, of course, make it a sharper image. It also makes it more challenging to get the subject entirely in the frame, especially in action sports like soccer and football, but the rewards for doing so are substantial.

I try to leave at least enough room to crop slightly since I have trouble following the action and keeping my horizon level. I also found myself holding my camera to shoot portrait instead of landscape to get even tighter.

I'm glad you posted your originals. They look much like mine used to be. Subject safely in the frame, but a lot of space around them. I would love to see to see wilrobking's original image of the football player. My guess is that it won't be significantly different than the posted image - at least in how the image fills the frame.

Here are two recent images that demonstrate what they are saying (and also demonstrates my horizon-impaired shooting - yikes):

40d with 100-400L IS

1) nice shot, great timing, but too loose.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

2) here is the team logo off her jersey.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

3) this is about as tight as I dare shoot (she was right in front of me).

This image is copyrighted by the owner

4) here is the team logo off her jersey.

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Oct 08, 2008 at 02:15 PM

marino420td
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p.1 #16 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Scott, thanks for the reply. I recently discovered your football tutorials on youtube and really enjoyed them.

Again, the reason I stopped down to F8 was because I thought I would get a sharper image by more of the image being in focus with an increased depth of field. Since it was a sunny day, I thought I could do so without sacrificing much on shutter speed. I'll try opening up the lense and shooting tighter to see how that goes.

Bill- Thanks and I have read Paul's tutorial several times. Invaluable information. As far as the focus point, I do put it right on the subject's belly. So it usually is on the dark shirt. I do this because I thought it would give me the best chance of keeping focus while getting the entire player in the frame. I'll try your suggestion. My only concern is shooting through the fence doesn't allow much camera movement to follow a player's motion.

Am I correct in using A1 Servo mode? Also, I usually use the center point focus. Is this best or should I choose a different point?

bobbyz- the glass is sharp. I feel this is a great lense for the money. I'll crank that baby up to 200 and shoot tight as you suggest.

gtjohnson- nice examples. Thanks for the demonstration.

Oct 08, 2008 at 08:04 PM

schlotz
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p.1 #17 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

When it comes to sports, I like to suggest "first things first". Use a monopod. Set focus point to center only. Put focus control on the *-button. f/4 or 5.6 is plenty, use breezbrowser or some sort of veiw program that can tell you where the focus was pointed (this helps you understand what exactly the camera was using to attempt its focus). Since you do this is in bright light try to set it up to keep the shutter at 1/1000 or better. Yes you can can get very sharp ones under this speed but to start this is a good first pass.

If the 70-200 lens you are using is the IS version, make sure IS is OFF.

Regards,
Matt

Oct 08, 2008 at 08:27 PM

pvhphoto
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p.1 #18 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

schlotz wrote:
When it comes to sports, I like to suggest "first things first". Use a monopod. Set focus point to center only. Put focus control on the *-button. f/4 or 5.6 is plenty, use breezbrowser or some sort of veiw program that can tell you where the focus was pointed (this helps you understand what exactly the camera was using to attempt its focus). Since you do this is in bright light try to set it up to keep the shutter at 1/1000 or better. Yes you can can get very sharp ones under this speed but to start this is a good first pass.

If the 70-200 lens you are using is the IS version, make sure IS is OFF.

Regards,
Matt

+1 to everything mentioned above.
I was skeptical at first because I love my IS, but I was playing with it on/off yet again this weekend, and it really does seem to lead to softer shots under some conditions

Ideas possibly not mentioned above:
- try some shots with/without your UV filter, if you are using one, for direct comparison
- try some shots thru/over the fence for comparison if possible.
- make sure you have the lens hood close or against the fence, with the lens centered exactly on the hole. A 1.6 crop sensor may not use the full lens angle, and crop out the wires (as well as blur them out at f4)

Oct 09, 2008 at 12:28 AM

marino420td
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p.1 #19 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I took all of your advice to my younger son's soccer game today. Much better results.

This is not my son but one of my best shots today

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ISO 400
1/1250
F4.5

Oct 09, 2008 at 04:05 AM

gtjohnson
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p.1 #20 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Nice shot. These guys here are the greatest are they not? Even if you and I can't match their equipment, we can use their techniques (to the best of our ability) to maximize the equipment we have. Looks like you're well on your way ...

Thanks for posting - it was a great thread.

Gary

Oct 10, 2008 at 03:21 AM

Jeff_Stapleton
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p.1 #21 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

While this looks much better,It still looks off to me (on second look, it could be my imagination)...

The fingers and the hair look blurred together or something? Could it be that some of your softness is coming from your post processing? Are you running excessive noise reduction or saving at such a low quality that it is making your images look more soft? At 1/1250th of a second, there shouldn't be much motion blur from a child running.

Oct 10, 2008 at 04:11 AM

marino420td
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p.1 #22 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

Post processing could be the problem. I do my best at photoshop but I am self taught and still have a long way to go. My questions on post processing will be saved for another thread.

The last photo above was cropped, levels adjusted and sharpened. Maybe too much processing. I think the crop is mainly what is causing the softness.

I will get another chance at soccer tomorrow and baseball on Sunday. Wish me luck.

Oct 10, 2008 at 01:08 PM

marino420td
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p.1 #23 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I got more practice this weekend. Left the lense wide open. Partly cloudy day so the lighting changed back and forth.

Here are some decent shots. Cropped, adjusted levels and sharpened in PP. Let me know what you think of these.

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Oct 13, 2008 at 06:42 PM

pvhphoto
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p.1 #24 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

I'm no expert on baseball, but here are my thoughts anyway. I think it's all covered well in the baseball primer in the sports corner resources - been a while since I read it...

#1
- seems sharp enough to me, and the eyes/ball/peak action/pose are ok
- it's backlit fairly strongly, not sure if +1/3 ec is enough for that
- the background kinda sucks, but may have been the best available.
- can you crop the spectator legs out a bit more?
- camera height seems higher than #2 & #3. I prefer the lower angles personally

#2
- seems sharp enough, best background
- not sure if this is the favourite part of the pitching cycle that people (parents) want to see. Always wondered about that.
- I think you could crop out the misc. elbow & foot, and re-centre the pitcher

#3
- looks a little soft for 1/2000. Perhaps it's backfocused. Take a close look at the dirt in you full res version to decide. The 30D isn't perfect at AI Servo focusing. I usually takes similar shots in bursts of 2 to improve chances of nailing the focus.
- don't post you shots without straightening them first (even if the fence is leaning, I would make it look vertical) otherwise people will be noticing that instead of other things...
- background is spoiled by the vehicle to some degree.

lol - I was just thinking to myself looking at your shots, how I kinda missed shooting ball this year, the warm days, and the sounds of the game....but then I thought of the dust!

Oct 14, 2008 at 01:22 AM

marino420td
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p.1 #25 · Help me get sharp baseball shot- photos posted for C&C

pvhphoto- thanks for your reply and insight. I know some of the backgrounds suck (spectator's legs, autos, dugout and fence, etc.) but that is just something I have to deal with at most of our local fields. This particular field does offer a nice tree lined background from certain angles.

#3 is probably the heavies crop so it does appear soft. It actually appears a little sharper on my screen so maybe the conversion into photobucket softened it a little more.

A couple of final questions then I'll let this thread die down and continue to practice.

1. Can I reasonably expect to get razor sharp shots across the infield with my 70-200 F4 L lense? The players are approximately 80 feet away.

2. How do I assure that the camera/lense is focusing on my subject. I often get shots (like #3 above) in which another subject in the photo appears to be in sharper focus?

Thanks to all for your replies and suggestions. This site is an invaluable resource to a learning hobbyist!

Oct 14, 2008 at 01:18 PM


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