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kaydee
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p.2 #1 · Dance Pose Copyright


Thank you all for the fired up discussion. But it looks like the issue is vague and there is no firm answer as to whether the poses are ,or can be copyrighted by the teacher.

I talked to a few lawyer friends and they too were quite confused and unclear as to which way it would go !!!

Kay Dee

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:21 AM
transoptic1
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p.2 #2 · Dance Pose Copyright


A pose seems different than say to videograph a whole choreographed dance routine.

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:24 AM
kaydee
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p.2 #3 · Dance Pose Copyright


The teacher wants the parents and me to stop showing the poses to other people/prospective clients as she claims to be the copyright owner of the poses. In fact I know that she has not filed any copyright registrations with the proper authorities, but she is just been a little annoying.

She wants control of who sees the images.

I want to make sure that I am not treding into murky waters by telling her to take a hike. The parents are with me !!!

Kay Dee

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:30 AM
Ted.Sz
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p.2 #4 · Dance Pose Copyright


Too funny. I'd like to see the first Patent office in any country to grant a patent on the way someone may position their body as that what a pose is. Prior art anyone?

Aug 22, 2008 at 04:54 AM
Brooke Clyde
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p.2 #5 · Dance Pose Copyright


donrisi wrote:
I hate to say this, but choreography can indeed be copyrighted. A "dance pose" is one moment in a choreographed dance, and can, therefore, be copyrighted.


Choreography can, indeed, be copyrighted. But the above assertion is rather like claiming that, since this reply can be copyrighted, then I own the word "Choreography".

But you can use it ...

Aug 22, 2008 at 05:45 AM
RGS65
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p.2 #6 · Dance Pose Copyright


If the "pose" is from a larger choreographed dance routine I see no reason it could not be copyrighted, just like a single frame from a movie. It's part of a larger routine which could be registered.

A single pose seems less likely.

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:35 PM
RGS65
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p.2 #7 · Dance Pose Copyright


I think you are indeed treading on murky waters - I would be careful, just like you would want someone to be careful with your art. Be respectful of her art form as you want her to be of yours.

If she teaches this kid and created a choreographed routine and these single poses are from that routine she is well on her way to winning the argument IMO.

The parents are with you? Really? Have them sign an indemnity agreement that they will pay any judgment against you and then we will see.

kaydee wrote:
The teacher wants the parents and me to stop showing the poses to other people/prospective clients as she claims to be the copyright owner of the poses. In fact I know that she has not filed any copyright registrations with the proper authorities, but she is just been a little annoying.

She wants control of who sees the images.

I want to make sure that I am not treding into murky waters by telling her to take a hike. The parents are with me !!!

Kay Dee



Edited on Aug 22, 2008 at 03:39 PM


Aug 22, 2008 at 03:37 PM
mostlyprudent
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p.2 #8 · Dance Pose Copyright


kaydee wrote:
Thank you all for the fired up discussion. But it looks like the issue is vague and there is no firm answer as to whether the poses are ,or can be copyrighted by the teacher.

I talked to a few lawyer friends and they too were quite confused and unclear as to which way it would go !!!

Kay Dee


With all do respect to your lawyer friends, this would not be confusing or complicated to an IP attorney.

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:39 PM
RGS65
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p.2 #9 · Dance Pose Copyright


Exactly right. Unclear as to which way it would ultimately go only means, yes, you can be sued and you won't know how it shakes out until the lawyers on both sides get paid and somebody loses. You are taking a risk. Just be aware of that. (I'm a lawyer too.)

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:42 PM
RGS65
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p.2 #10 · Dance Pose Copyright


By the way, this has been a very interesting post. I find the level of disrespect for art other than photography astounding - and downright scary and ignorant.

Aug 22, 2008 at 03:43 PM
liamh
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p.2 #11 · Dance Pose Copyright


RGS65 wrote:
By the way, this has been a very interesting post. I find the level of disrespect for art other than photography astounding - and downright scary and ignorant.


Great attitude

Aug 22, 2008 at 04:33 PM
Bill Grae
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p.2 #12 · Dance Pose Copyright


Long post alert. CAUTION. First, however, a disclaimer:

Please note that none of the following is intended as legal advice, especially since I have no idea in what jurisdiction (or country, even) this interesting question arises, and I am only admitted in New York and New Jersey and several District Courts in the Second and Third (federal) Circuits. This post is especially NOT intended to establish any sort of attorney-client relationship, and is offered here, SOLELY, to foster on-going discussion on this topic.

Assuming we're talking about U.S. copyright law, however, here's my take on things:

Based on my research, the bottom line seems to be that the dance instructor in question could actually be correct about her right to claim to own the copyright t a particular dance pose, but probably is not. Answering this question, however, requires more information. For example, is there anything about the particular pose that makes it a unique expression of an idea, as opposed to a “standard pose”? Whereas a sequence of moves quite easily can be construed as an expression of an idea, rather than an idea in and of itself, a single static pose of an individual dancer (absent unique costume, setting, or musical accompaniment) hardly seems the sort of unique expression that courts will grant protection.

A “dance” or choreographed work, is potentially subject to copyright protection. E.g., Martha Graham Sch. & Dance Found., Inc. v. Martha Graham Ctr. of Contemporary Dance, Inc., 374 F. Supp. 2d 355 (S.D.N.Y. 2005). Similarly, based on federal court decisions dating back to at least 1884, “[p]hotographs may be protected under copyright law based on the expression of the artist's originality, such as his choice of composition, lighting, shading, camera angle, background, perspective, selection of film and camera, and the expression elicited from the subjects.” For what it’s worth, even legal works - such as contracts or software end-user agreements - can be subject to copyright, though legal opinions or judicial decisions are not. That’s why I can quote above, from the word “photographs” through “subject”, without worrying about U.S. District Court Judge Matthew W. Kennelly, of the Northern District of Illinois, suing me, for grabbing language from his opinion in Bryant v. Gordon, 483 F. Supp. 2d 605, 614-616 (N.D. Ill. 2007).

In Bryant, a photographer sued for damages after he sold photographs of military snipers in Ghillie suits to a producer of “military motivational materials.” The photographs were incorporated into posters, coffee mugs, and the like, with slogans. When the first purchaser went bankrupt, its assets were purchased by a second similar enterprise. When ths purchaser began to run low on inventory , he hired a new photographer to take new shots of individuals in a pose and attire similar to the snipers in the shots originally taken and sold by plaintiff. In the subsequent law suit, the photographer (the first one) contended that the new work infringed his copyright, in part, because the new photographs used the same poses.

The court’s ultimate decision involved a number of different issues beyond the fairly narrow issue of whether a “pose” is itself copyrightable. The easily-framed issue actually offers a really fascinating entry into a number of different doctrines of copyright law. The court noted:

In some cases, the contrived positioning of a subject has been protected, but in other cases, poses have not been considered to be copyrightable elements because they are inherent in the subject matter or are otherwise unorginal. See, e.g., Gentieu v. Tony Stone Images/Chicago, Inc., 255 F. Supp. 2d 838, 847 (N.D. Ill. 2003) (finding that photographer could not establish infringement claim because the poses and images flowed necessarily from the subject matter of naked babies and therefore were not original).

Defendants rely on Gentieu to argue that the pose of the sniper team in the Bryant photo is not a protectible element of the image and therefore must be dissected out and disregarded for the copyrightability analysis. In Gentieu, the photographer urged copyright protection in the image of naked babies against a white background. Gentieu, 255 F. Supp. 2d at 844. There, the court found that a baby's smile or a baby putting its arms up was inseparable from the unprotectible idea of a baby photograph. Id. The court concluded that such poses are "standard" reactions found naturally in babies and therefore cannot be monopolized by the copyright holder. Id. at 849. Because a naked baby smiling or holding its arms up can be expressed only in a limited number of ways, the scope of copyright protection is necessarily narrower. Id. at 849-50.

In this regard, defendants appear to rely on what has come to be known as the scenes a faire doctrine, though defendants do not use that term. Under this doctrine, incidents, characters, or settings which are as a practical matter indispensable, or at least standard, in the treatment of a given topic are not protectible by copyright.

As defendants argue and as Bryant acknowledges, Bryant cannot claim copyright protection in the idea or concept of his subject matter, a two-person sniper team in Ghillie suits, in the prone position, sighting a target. Indeed, that particular standard "pose" is precluded from copyright protection under the scenes a faire doctrine. Bryant contends, however, that he is claiming protection only of his expression of that idea. He argues that the Urtis photo uses all the relevant components from the Bryant photo -- subject matter, composition, camera angle, lighting, and perspective -- and essentially duplicates most, if not all, the compositional elements contained in that photo.

In contrast to the stark background and composition in Gentieu, Bryant's composition has some original elements, based on his choice of angle, perspective, lighting, and the expression of the subjects. These choices constitute original elements. None of the particular compositional elements of the Bryant photo as it is expressed necessarily flows from, nor is required by, the idea of capturing a sniper team in prone position dressed in Ghillie suits. In other words, a wide range of possibilities are available to a photographer when choosing to depict a sniper team in that position. Indeed, both Bryant and Urtis have submitted several photos taken by Urtis depicting sniper teams from different angles and perspectives.


Bryant v. Gordon, 483 F. Supp. 2d 605, 614-616 (N.D. Ill. 2007)

The Copyright Act expressly provides in pertinent part that: “n no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." 17 U.S.C. §§ 102(b). Thus, a copyright protects only the expression of ideas, not the ideas themselves. See Wildlife Express Corp. v. Carol Wright Sales, Inc., 18 F.3d 502, 507 (7th Cir. 1994).

Given the rationale of promoting the arts that underlies copyright law, courts furthermore have the obligation and discretion to interpret copyright narrowly to avoid granting an effective monopoly over an idea where the idea in question can only be expressed in a limited number of ways.

I agree, by the way, that a practical response is often the optimum means of resolving this sort of potential dispute. "O.k., you say you have a copyright, you 'bout licensing me to shoot this pose, and I'll make sure to credit you when I post the shot on my web site?" I would be interest, as well, in whether or not the studen realized that her dancing and other activities during the course of instruction were subject to her instructor's copyright - after all, the dancer's performance is, absolutely, a "unique expression" protected by copyright.

Great question!


Edited on Aug 22, 2008 at 07:02 PM


Aug 22, 2008 at 07:00 PM
RGS65
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p.2 #13 · Dance Pose Copyright


Ok Liam, maybe a little strong - I agree - but I was kinda struck by the way people were so flippant about someone elses art work.

liamh wrote:
RGS65 wrote:
By the way, this has been a very interesting post. I find the level of disrespect for art other than photography astounding - and downright scary and ignorant.


Great attitude



Aug 22, 2008 at 07:35 PM
tedbare
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p.2 #14 · Dance Pose Copyright


Was the choreographer suggesting that the poses were original works and that nobody could subsequently strike those poses without her consent?

BTW, my wife's a choreographer with copyrighted works that include elements (poses, leaps, etc.) that have been seen in the works of others. She said (tongue in cheek) that she now needs to know which poses (and other choreographical elements) might be copyrighted so she doesn't infringe on other choreographers' IP.

Gimme a break. I'd need to see an actual copyright on a pose to believe the that USPTO will grant one.

Aug 22, 2008 at 09:55 PM
papageno
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p.2 #15 · Dance Pose Copyright


The sad part of this is that it could be serious.......

Makes me think of all the mediocre pictures posted on the web that contain a large copyright notice.

Edited on Aug 22, 2008 at 10:10 PM


Aug 22, 2008 at 10:08 PM
bigbee
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p.2 #16 · Dance Pose Copyright


The proposition that a single pose can be copyrighted is ludicrous. Every subject who has ever had his or her picture taken could claim to be their own choreographer and that every frame of every shoot includes a copyrighted pose. After a few thousand registrations, legal posing and photography would come to a screeching halt.

This defies the most basic common sense.

Aug 23, 2008 at 02:06 AM
rickmorealnd
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p.2 #17 · Dance Pose Copyright


This defies the most basic common sense.
That is because we are talking law and the misunderstandings of law!

Aug 23, 2008 at 03:11 AM
RGS65
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p.2 #18 · Dance Pose Copyright


Why is it so difficult to comprehend? Can you go to a performance and take a still? NO you can't because the production is copyrighted.

For all we know the student is in a costume from the show in a pose from the show.

The fact is we weren't given enough information to decide - but what we do know is that the instructor voiced a clear notice of copyright. Calling that silly is really outrageous without more information. She knew enough to point it out to the photographer. Thats a pretty solid starting point IMO. Telling the OP to simply ignore the claim is reckless and bad advice - especially if she has no professional insurance.

Edited by RGS65 on Aug 22, 2008 at 10:33 PM GMT

Edited on Aug 23, 2008 at 03:33 AM


Aug 23, 2008 at 03:31 AM
finster1018
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p.2 #19 · Dance Pose Copyright


I think the dance instructor needs to clarify her comments by saying you can't or shouldn't profit by these images. As far as posting them, since this is a forum where others learn from, I suppose you could always claim it falls under 'fair use'.

Edited on Aug 23, 2008 at 12:07 PM


Aug 23, 2008 at 12:02 PM
jebrown
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p.2 #20 · Dance Pose Copyright


Those are your photographs and you can display them as you see fit. If you and any one else want to find out from a legal stand point, contact Carolyn E. Wright at photoattorney.com. She is both a renowned photographer as well as an attorney dealing with photography and copyright law.
She has a blog at photoattorney.com and updates it with advice on a very timely manner. I visit it often and have learned a lot about laws and rights of photographers. Others would be wise to do the same to astay informed.

Aug 24, 2008 at 10:14 PM
lordarka
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p.2 #21 · Dance Pose Copyright


GCasey wrote:
Googling on the question turned up this information:

"NEW DELHI: The United States has denied granting patents and trademarks for the ancient Indian practice of yoga, popular among western celebrities, a statement from the US embassy said Tuesday.
....

This has no connection to dance poses, though it is somewhat similar.



It's not similar at all. The reason that Yoga poses are not protected by U.S. Copyright is because they are public domain that are hundreds of years old; it has nothing to do with the fact that they are poses. See Open Source Yoga Unity v. Choudhury, 2005 WL 756558 (N.D.Cal. 2005) (with parties conceding that yoga asanas are ancient works which belong to the public at large). In this sense, yoga is like Shakespeare or Van Gogh.

Dance poses may certainly be protected by copyright.

"Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
...
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly..."

17 U.S.C. § 106(5).

The OP probably does not infringe the choreographer's copyright though. A federal court in the Second Circuit (New York) held that a photographer could indeed infringe a choreographic work, but only if the photograph (s) are substantially similar to the choreography. Horgan v. Macmillan, Inc., 789 F.2d 157 (2d Cir. 1986). The facts in that case involved a picture book which sequentially depicted a choreographer's ballet. Here, the OP has a single picture of a single pose; doesn't sound like his photographs rise to the level of infringement.


Rick's suggestion that you ask for written proof from the US Copyright Office is valid. If she claims to have a copyright, she needs to show it.

You do not need to register a work with the copyright office to validate it. The copyright on the pose is presumptively valid.

Arka C.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer (yet), but have studied these issues more than the average person. That said, these opinions are not offered as legal counsel.


Edited on Aug 24, 2008 at 11:52 PM


Aug 24, 2008 at 11:47 PM
Umm_fish
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p.2 #22 · Dance Pose Copyright


Fair use in U.S. copyright law:

... the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


From here: [url]http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Of course the choreographer holds the copyright to the dance. What is the proportion of one pose to the entirety of the series of poses and movements that constitute the dance work (section 3 above)? I'd imagine pretty small. Posting the photo online to an educational forum such as this one should be entirely protected (if we are talking about U.S. law).

Edited on Aug 25, 2008 at 01:53 AM


Aug 25, 2008 at 01:52 AM
lordarka
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p.2 #23 · Dance Pose Copyright


Umm_fish wrote:

Of course the choreographer holds the copyright to the dance. What is the proportion of one pose to the entirety of the series of poses and movements that constitute the dance work (section 3 above)? I'd imagine pretty small. Posting the photo online to an educational forum such as this one should be entirely protected (if we are talking about U.S. law).


Fair use is immaterial if there was no infringement in the first place. I think it's safe to say that photographing one pose in a choreography does not, in most cases, rise to the level of infringement. If the pose in question was so central to the choreography that any photograph of it would be "substantially similar" to the entire choreography. the photo might infringe... I can think of a few dances where this might be the case.

That said, presuming that this is not such a "single pose" dance, analysis of the "fairness" in posting a non-infringing photograph of it is not all that useful. It's generally "fair" to display works that don't infringe any copyrights.

Arka C.

Edited on Aug 25, 2008 at 05:40 AM


Aug 25, 2008 at 05:32 AM
andrew81
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p.2 #24 · Dance Pose Copyright


I am currently suing 20th Century Fox for their unlawful use, by Ben Stiller, of the Blue Steel pose.
I can't say too much though

Edited by andrew81 on Aug 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM GMT

Edited on Aug 25, 2008 at 11:05 AM


Aug 25, 2008 at 10:52 AM
andrew81
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p.2 #25 · Dance Pose Copyright


Brooke Clyde wrote:
donrisi wrote:
I hate to say this, but choreography can indeed be copyrighted. A "dance pose" is one moment in a choreographed dance, and can, therefore, be copyrighted.


Choreography can, indeed, be copyrighted. But the above assertion is rather like claiming that, since this reply can be copyrighted, then I own the word "Choreography".

But you can use it ...

There was a case recently (within the last 6 months) that got a bit of air time here of a dance group who took out an injunction on a 15 year old girl who allegedly, breached copyright on a routine.

The story unfolded thusly:
The girl taught a group of students a routine to a group at the studio, the group won some awards.
The young girl then went and taught some other people the routine. Some people who couldnt afford to attend a dance school. I do recall some where slightly mentally disabled.
Dance company cracked the shits and the courts agreed. I dont think the studio did much business from then on.

Aug 25, 2008 at 11:02 AM

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