Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

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DonShreve
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p.1 #1 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Here's another outrage perpetrated by our government; a secret until it was exposed by the last vestiges of a "free press".

Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border (washingtonpost.com)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html

I just wrote to both my senators, my US rep, the TSA & Customs, as if it will make any difference.

Don Shreve
http://www.shreveimaging.com
Fayetteville, AR

Aug 04, 2008 at 05:14 PM

paulhodson
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p.1 #2 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

And people wonder why we in the UK are now less likely to visit your country.

Add to this time consuming and rude immigration procedures plus the amount of information we are expected to share about ourselves before we travel - and it ain't worth the effort.

And I am a white Anglo-Saxon. I can't imagine how I would feel about the likely problems if I were a young Muslim

Aug 04, 2008 at 05:46 PM

DanBrown
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p.1 #3 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

paulhodson wrote:
And people wonder why we in the UK are now less likely to visit your country.

Doesn't fit the facts. The exchange rate has increased tourism. From the Chicago Sun-Times of 8/3/08:

"International visitors to the United States increased to more than 56.7 million people in 2007, an 11.1 percent increase over the previous year, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce. Visitors from Canada, Mexico, England, Japan and Germany top the list."

Edited on Aug 04, 2008 at 06:40 PM

Aug 04, 2008 at 06:39 PM

paulhodson
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p.1 #4 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Fair enough - but I can give you a list of people I know who won't now go - and I think you will find that though figures are up your market share is down! Lies, damned lies and statistics

The reason for any increase of course is that the value of your currency is as crap as ours - we can't afford to go anywhere else!

Edited on Aug 04, 2008 at 06:57 PM

Aug 04, 2008 at 06:50 PM

DanBrown
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p.1 #5 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

DonShreve wrote:

Here's another outrage perpetrated by our government; a secret until it was exposed by the last vestiges of a "free press".

Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border (washingtonpost.com)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html

I just wrote to both my senators, my US rep, the TSA & Customs, as if it will make any difference.

Don Shreve
http://www.shreveimaging.com
Fayetteville, AR

"The last vestiges of a free press." Hyperbole without basis. In Oct 2006, the International Herald Tribune published a story about laptop seizures, and there may have been more before that (someone who can access Lexis-Nexis could check). It's been in the news multiple times in 2007 and 2008.

Regarding legality, unless Congress does something, the practice is likely to remain unchecked. It's already been upheld by the 9th Circus, excuse me, Circuit Court of Appeals. And since that court is the most or one of the most liberal federal appeals court, it doesn't seem likely that another court would rule otherwise. Always possible, just not likely.

Edited on Aug 04, 2008 at 08:22 PM

Aug 04, 2008 at 08:20 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #6 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Maybe he meant latest vestiges. Slow day at the Post?

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1208774513920

Aug 05, 2008 at 04:23 AM

Taylor Barrett
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p.1 #7 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

This is not new news and not accurate in practice. I'm not even going to bother writing my bit about it (I have in other threads here at FM) but lets just say that don't beware unless you fit a profile that would get you "randomly screened".

Aug 05, 2008 at 04:30 AM

Alistair Watson
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p.1 #8 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Now that is just crazy!

Aug 05, 2008 at 08:34 AM

Dr D
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p.1 #9 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

paulhodson wrote:
Lies, damned lies and statistics

Come now - everyone knows that 79.6% of quoted statistics are just made up on the spot

Aug 05, 2008 at 08:45 AM

paulhodson
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p.1 #10 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Dr D wrote:
paulhodson wrote:
Lies, damned lies and statistics

Come now - everyone knows that 79.6% of quoted statistics are just made up on the spot

Roughly

Aug 05, 2008 at 09:17 AM

Mickey
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p.1 #11 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

" It's already been upheld by the 9th Circus, excuse me, Circuit Court of Appeals. And since that court is the most or one of the most liberal federal appeals court,"

True, but it's also the most overturned Court of Appeals in the US.

Aug 05, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Dr D
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p.1 #12 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

It gets worse. This just in from my corporate email affecting all travellers to the US under the Visa Wiaver Program:

USA to introduce Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) by the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

What is ESTA ?

ESTA is a new online system that requires all short-term visitors who travel to the United States without a visa to register their details online at least 72 hours prior to departure. This means that business travellers from some 27 countries, including the UK, France and Germany, who currently use the visa waiver programme and simply complete an I-94 card whilst on board the plane, will now need to prepare in advance.

What is the benefit of the new System?

A key benefit of the new systems is that registration is valid for two years and travellers can make multiple trips, making the process much more efficient in the long-term. On arrival in the United States, business travellers enrolled on the programme will be able to confirm their identity via biometric check at kiosks – avoiding lengthy queues and rapidly speeding up immigration procedures.
Applications can be carried out by third parties, minimising any impact whilst maximising knowledge sharing to prevent security risks and improve passenger safety.

How do I register for ESTA?

Voluntary applications will be accepted via the DHS website from August. However, until the system becomes mandatory on 12 January 2009, clients need be advised that they will still need to complete the I-94 card.

Is ESTA safe and secure for my personal data ?

Clients should feel confident that their personal information is being handled by some of the most secure IT platforms in the world - the ESTA website is subject to the same strict controls that have been established for similar travel screening programmes governed by US laws and regulations, including the Federal Information Security Management Act.

What is the web address for Department of Homeland Security?

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov

Edited on Aug 06, 2008 at 01:02 PM

Aug 06, 2008 at 01:02 PM

GillR
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p.1 #13 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

I first read about ESTA a while back and after I'd calmed down (my husband and I travel to the USA most years), I searched around and found that the Help pages state:

When do I need to apply for a travel authorization?

Applications may be submitted at any time prior to travel to the United States. The Department of Homeland Security recommends that travel authorization applications be submitted at least 72 hours prior to travel. Unless revoked, travel authorizations are valid for two years from the date of authorization, or until your passport expires, whichever comes first. ( my emphasis)

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/WebHelp/ESTA_Screen-Level_Online_Help_1.htm

So it would appear that 72 hrs prior isn't mandatory ... although it certainly comes across as such!

Edited on Aug 06, 2008 at 08:50 PM

Aug 06, 2008 at 08:50 PM

ontime
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p.1 #14 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

This is funny. So how does the random seizure of laptops make anyone any safer? Anyone care to elaborate?

Aug 07, 2008 at 05:15 AM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #15 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

You'd probably want to ask the people that suggest the search authority involves the random seizure of laptops. That's not the way the program works, just the rumors. That's not was reported in the article cited. The article suggested "increasing numbers" of travelers complained but didn't offer any real numbers nor suggest that the complaints were all about laptops, etc.

The recent case the 9th decided on was on child pornography and doesn't seem to have been random. If nothing else, that doesn't seem to have been one of the issues ruled on.

Edited on Aug 07, 2008 at 07:36 AM

Aug 07, 2008 at 07:35 AM

ontime
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p.1 #16 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

I see, thanks for clearing some of that up.

Aug 08, 2008 at 01:26 AM

Dan Fleury
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p.1 #17 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Can you spell:

P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A

Hopefully a change in US administration brings about more 'world-friendly' foreign policies from this once great nation... It really is a shame what fear has done to the world in the last 7 years....

Aug 09, 2008 at 03:27 AM

Nathan27
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p.1 #18 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

paulhodson wrote:
And people wonder why we in the UK are now less likely to visit your country.

If it makes you feel any better, I won't be heading to England any time soon either. You guys don't even want me to have a pocket knife! As to the topic at hand, just because they don't confiscate laptops as a matter of practice it doesn't mean they wont in the future. Their policy allows it and that is the fundamental problem, they have written in a clause that gives them virtual free reign. Who's to say that in 10 years after another terrorist scare they won't start doing it all the time?

Aug 09, 2008 at 05:49 PM

paulhodson
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p.1 #19 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Nathan27 wrote:
paulhodson wrote:
And people wonder why we in the UK are now less likely to visit your country.

If it makes you feel any better, I won't be heading to England any time soon either. You guys don't even want me to have a pocket knife!

Actually you may carry a knife with a blade length of 3.0" or less so long as it is capable of folding.

But I would never claim that you have a monopoly on unreasonable authorities

Aug 10, 2008 at 05:49 AM

Nathan27
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p.1 #20 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

paulhodson wrote:
Nathan27 wrote:
paulhodson wrote:
And people wonder why we in the UK are now less likely to visit your country.

But I would never claim that you have a monopoly on unreasonable authorities

Really? I thought it couldn't lock...oh well, the real reason I wont be traveling to England any time soon is simply because I cannot afford to!

Aug 10, 2008 at 08:14 AM

Jeffrey
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p.1 #21 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Paul, nobody I know will ever fly through Heathrow again. The restricted carryon baggage limits and the general nature of inspection and 'dangerous items' is so insulting, it makes America look easy. I would never be able to travel with a camera kit.

Aug 11, 2008 at 10:27 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.1 #22 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

"As to the topic at hand, just because they don't confiscate laptops as a matter of practice it doesn't mean they wont in the future. Their policy allows it and that is the fundamental problem, they have written in a clause that gives them virtual free reign. Who's to say that in 10 years after another terrorist scare they won't start doing it all the time?"

"This policy provides guidance to U.S Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officers, Border
Patrol Agents, Air and Marine Agents, Internal Affairs Agents, and any other official of CBP
authorized to conduct border searches (for purposes of this policy, all such officers and agents
are hereinafter referred to as "officers") regarding the border search of information contained in
documents and electronic devices. More specifically, this policy sets forth the legal and policy
guidelines within which officers may search, review, retain, and share certain information
possessed by individuals who are encountered by CBP at the border, functional equivalent of the
border, or extended border. This policy governs border search authority only; nothing in this
policy limits the authority of CBP to act pursuant to other authorities such as a warrant or a
search incident to arrest."

Of course, if one is going to decide that someone or some agency may do something because they might do something....

Aug 12, 2008 at 12:37 AM

ontime
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p.1 #23 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

Jeffrey wrote:
Paul, nobody I know will ever fly through Heathrow again. The restricted carryon baggage limits and the general nature of inspection and 'dangerous items' is so insulting, it makes America look easy. I would never be able to travel with a camera kit.

I flew through Heathrow 3-4 times in the past year, didn't have a huge problem with it. The carry-on limitations are problematic however. I did not have my gear with me, so that would obviously be a different story.

Aug 12, 2008 at 01:40 AM

SEFrischling
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p.1 #24 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

I know I am late to the game here, but the US Customs Service has had the ability to detail and investigate anything coming into the United States since July 31st 1789. This was upheld by the 9th Circuit Court in 2006.

This has been coming up over the last two months like it is 'news.' It is not news, there has been no policy change in the scope of the US Customs Service. The policy and authority in place are that same throughout many nations around the world. When you are in the 'immigrations & customs' area of an airport you are not yet admitted to the country until after you clear Customs.....not at arrival, or even after your passport is stamped. You are admitted to the country of your arrival after you pass Customs and step outside the doors into the main terminal area.

While I don't agree with the scope of the authority, I wrote about this topic in detail here, on my blog for photogs who travel :
http://flyingwithfish.blogspot.com/2008/08/us-customs-has-right-to-search-your.html

Sep 08, 2008 at 08:19 PM

SEFrischling
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p.1 #25 · Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

ontime wrote:
This is funny. So how does the random seizure of laptops make anyone any safer? Anyone care to elaborate?

In general what Customs is looking for is information related to illegal activity.

This can be detailed notes on off-shore money, it can be 'terrorist related' (terrorists don't store data on Blackberrys though), quite a few people have been caught with significant amounts of child pornography on their laptops.

They ain't looking for pirated software or an illegally downloaded song. They have caught people entering the US with the clear intention of illegally staying in the US; they have caught child porn collectors and those who are involved in the drug trade because of data obtained on an intercepted laptop.

Sep 08, 2008 at 08:22 PM


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