weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

FM Forum Rules
Nikon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Nikon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 3 end

Archive 2008 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

gugs
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #1 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

D300 wrote:
i agree with rodolfo, that the 70-200 or more causes a very narrow field of view and that makes tracking subjects a large challenge - more so during an air show. I tried it with an old nikon 28-200mm on a D70s before and it was really really tough and it didnt have any VR and most shots came out blur. the 70-200VR is heavy too!
this is not really true, when you shoot an airshow, you can almost choose any shutter speed, there is a LOT of light, blurred shots are just the consequences of bad parameters selection. Large zooms are the way to go, and I never had any problem to track the planes even with the 80-400 almost locked on 400mm on a D70. All the people I have seen shooting airshows used long lenses like the Bigma or the Tamron 200-500, or better, all handheld, no problem.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

here 220mm 1/160sec handheld on a D70

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Guy

Jun 13, 2008 at 07:24 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #2 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Definitely stick to the 70-200 for the moment, although I'd suggest getting the 1.7x TC ASAP and using it for the airshow if you can.

The middleweight long pro lenses are all 6-8 pounds. The 300/2.8 Avi mentions is 6.3 pounds. My beloved 200-400/4 is 7.3 pounds, and the 500/4 is about 7.8 pounds. From there, it gets worse. The lightning-fast 400/2.8 is 9.3 pounds, and the mighty 600/4 is 11.3 pounds. And most of that weight is on the front part of the lens, 8-10 inches away, so it's got a lot more leverage on your triceps.

By comparison, the 70-200 is a delicate, svelte 3.2 pounds... barely half the weight of the next-heavier lens. I understand how you feel, and that's how most people feel when they start using this lens. But trust me: if you develop a strong interest in long-focal-length photography, the wonderful 70-200 is only the first step on the ladder and a key part of any pro's kit.

Go lift some light weights and go shoot a lot of images with it. It'll get lighter with time and practice.

Jun 13, 2008 at 07:33 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #3 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

gugs wrote:
this is not really true, when you shoot an airshow, you can almost choose any shutter speed, there is a LOT of light, blurred shots are just the consequences of bad parameters selection.

Uh, Guy... keep in mind that our friend D300 is pretty much just starting out (just happens to be making good investments in pro gear from the get-go), and has little experience at airshows so far. Far less than you, my friend.

"Almost any shutter speed" will apply to jets, but 1/160 or below for props. And blurred shots, in my experience, are pretty much the norm when you're trying to get great pans and blurred backgrounds. Takes a great deal of practice, trial, and error (mostly error) to train one's muscles in a good panning motion for aircraft in flight.

gugs wrote:
Large zooms are the way to go, and I never had any problem to track the planes even with the 80-400 almost locked on 400mm on a D70. All the people I have seen shooting airshows used long lenses like the Bigma or the Tamron 200-500, or better, all handheld, no problem.

You are correct. However, again the issue of experience crops up (pardon the pun). Everyone who's getting good shots at an airshow has a long lens, and nearly everyone uses long zooms. Almost all of those are handheld. But... pretty much everybody who's starting out has some major issues adapting to airshows and handholding longer lenses. Just a question of practice and experience.

Jun 13, 2008 at 07:41 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #4 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

You can get really nice pictures with a 70-200 + 1.7x TC. And Guy is correct in that there's usually a LOT of light... sometimes enough that you have trouble holding 1/160 because the aperture gets down to f/16 or f/22. A great addition to your kit in that case is a good circular polarizer. Bluer skies, less glare, more saturated colors (i.e. nicer airplane shots), and probably 2 stops of light loss will bring you back to a wider aperture and a more pleasingly blurred background.

Here's one from exactly that combo: D200, 70-200 + 1.7x + CPL. 1/125 f/5.6 @ 340mm iso100.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

For comparison, here's one from the D200 with 200-400 + 1.4x. 1/160 f/11 @ 550mm iso100.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Jun 13, 2008 at 07:50 PM

eaglewolf
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #5 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

I usually just bring the 70-200 VR and 1.7X TC. I remove the TC when I need a close up shot, so obviously I'm not doing wide angle work. The 12-24 wouldn't be a bad addition, but for me the 70-200 gets 95% of what I go to the air show for. Sometimes the 70-200 + 1.7X TC is a bit long, even for the flying shots. It just depends on where you shoot the action.

Actually, I might try the 12-24 next time. There would be some fun shots I could get with that. I just always tried to minimize the gear at an airshow. I'd like to have a place I could park with the 600, but I'd hate to be lugging that thing around all day! (That beast would make the 300 f/2.8 VR seem like a feather-weight in comparison.)

David

Edited by eaglewolf on Jun 13, 2008 at 01:36 PM GMT

Edited on Jun 13, 2008 at 09:36 PM

Jun 13, 2008 at 09:33 PM

gugs
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #6 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

my apologies if I sounded a bit negative but looking at your kit, I assumed that you were quite experienced (this is a more than reasonable dream pro-kit). If you want to play it safe, go for a higher shutter speed first, to avoid blur and forget about the propellers. Try to "lock the target" with your shortest focal distance (120mm on the 70-200+1.7TC) and then zoom in to get the right composition... you will even have to crop afterwards in many cases. When you'll get enough sharp pictures, you can try to slow down to get the blur on the propellers and you can try to develop your panning technique. The reason why I showed the example above, is that it was my very first panning test to get a blurred background and blurred propellers; this was with a D70+80-400 when I was a total beginner and it has not been such a big deal.

To summarize, add a 1.7TC, take a short lens too, shoot a lot and learn by trial and error and you'll get nice results.

Guy

Jun 13, 2008 at 09:33 PM

Tom Radford
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #7 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Was it Kemble air day by any chance you are going to? Well if it is you should be there now :-)
I Usually go but I have too much on at the moment!

Jun 15, 2008 at 12:37 PM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #8 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

There were two main aerial displays and the rest being military vehicles.
here are some photos taken with the 70-200mm...

Lets first take a look at the Spitfire...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

As we can see, the shots were generally okay. note one thing! The propellor! I had taken them at a very high shutter speed. Remembering the suggestions in the forum to go on a slow 60-80 shutter, the photos now appear better with the turbo prop in motion! The first photo below is slightly blurred, but i got use to it and improved a little ...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The skies were generally good, but i had a hard time zooming into the Spitfire. the 200mm focal lens is not long enough!!!! I am now considering to get a teleconvertor. perhaps 1.4 / 1.7 or 2 ? Your learned opinions would be appreciated!

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 12:43 AM

Jun 16, 2008 at 12:39 AM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #9 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

And some more photos of the second plane for the display on saturday ...
it soon got very cloudy...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

and this is my favourite shot with a nice blue sky again...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

All photos were cropped and were very slightly post processed with CS2.
I am still relatively new to aircraft photography. Few things ive learned from you guys:

- slightly slower shutter for turbo props (propellor planes_
- 70-200: 200mm is not enough!
- VR does help!

as i mentioned about teleconvertors (TCs), any recommendations on which to get? a 1.4 / 1.7 / 2.0? im tempted to the get the 1.7, but the 2.0 looks very good as well but have been told its a better bet with the 1.7. thanks guys and enjoy the pics!

Jun 16, 2008 at 12:47 AM

Avi B
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #10 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Well, here's a shot with the 70-300VR. But if I were in your shoes, I'd get the 1.7x

Jun 16, 2008 at 12:54 AM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #11 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Avi, thats a great shot. any way i can improve the dark shadows when planes are taken this way in a not so bright day? the composition of yours is great, but its a bit dark. how can we go about this?

Jun 16, 2008 at 01:29 AM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #12 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

more photos can be found here...

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/657186/

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/657183/

Jun 16, 2008 at 01:30 AM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #13 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Best way to improve those "dark" shots is to add more light. Not being sarcastic here, just pointing out that sometimes the answer really is the obvious one.

But then, you say, the sky will totally blow out to white and that looks awful. And you'll be right. The tool to use, then, is a CPL (circular polarizer). It'll make the sky bluer and saturate colors more, and will prevent the sky from blowing out to white when you add more exposure to the airplanes.

I suggest the 1.7x TC. The loss in image quality is very small compared to the increase in effective reach you get. Your 70-200 becomes a 120-340 f/4.8 which is a much more usable focal length. I got a lot of great shots out of the 70-200/1.7x combo before I was able to purchase my 200-400. It'll do you right, trust me. The 2.0 makes images too soft, and the 1.4 maintains images almost exactly as good as the original, but doesn't add enough reach to really matter. The middle choice, is the best one in this case.

Jun 16, 2008 at 02:28 AM

Avi B
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #14 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Yeah, I couldn't use my CPL because it's a 77mm and the lens was a rental and I dont have a stepup ring

Edit: But how should the CPL be used in that case? I mean what do I turn it to do?

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 03:11 AM

Jun 16, 2008 at 03:01 AM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #15 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

The thought sequence is pretty much what I outlined in the previous post: you expose for the airplane, and add as much polarization as you can while maintaining proper exposure on the airplanes. The more polarization you use, the better the clouds and sky will usually look; so start at maximum effect and see if you need to back it down after you take a few shots. Lots of times, mine stays at max the whole time because at airshows there is usually a lot of light, and without the CPL either the planes are dark or the sky is white.

There is a secondary benefit to the CPL: because you lose light, the shutter speeds drop. That's wonderful in the case of propeller-driven planes, since you want a slow shutter speed and (ideally) a large aperture to get both prop blur and better bokeh on the background. The CPL means you don't have to work so hard to get the right settings. And if you need a faster shutter speed at any time, you simply have to back down the CPL a bit and voila!... more light.

At the Red Bull Air Race in Monument Valley last year, I was delighted to find out that the 70-200 plus the 1.7x TC (with a max aperture of f/4.8) plus the CPL twisted to max effect, yielded shutter speeds of 1/125 to 1/320 when set to Aperture Priority and f/4.8. Didn't have to do a thing for the rest of the day but focus and shoot. Pity I had so little experience at the time... I should have come away with dozens of beautiful images. Besides, an even better idea (since I was shooting only prop planes at high speed) would have been to set Shutter Priority to 1/125 and let the aperture move from f/4.8 to f/7.1 as needed. But here's at least two examples that turned out well:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

More benefits of the CPL, by the way: red rocks also look redder and their shadows look cleaner and clearer. Is that a useful explanation? I hope not to have wandered into too many tangents there.

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 04:44 AM

Jun 16, 2008 at 04:39 AM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #16 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

yes, i have read other recommendations also to get the 1.7x TC as opposed to the 1.4x TC or the 2x TC. i'd better start saving up now.

CPL... Rodolfo Paiz, could you recommend one? Hoya, B+W? any suggestions? thanks again!

Jun 16, 2008 at 10:03 AM

Avi B
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #17 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

B+W MRC 77mm

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM

Jun 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #18 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

should i get a circular or linear polarizer for airshow shots?
do i need a rotating ring when choosing PL filters?

i hope to achieve a more vibrant shot of the skies and to reduce reflections when taking photos of aircraft on static display....

im looking at the 77mm Hoya PL filters. the Super HMC is pricey!

your learned opinions are appreciated. thanks.

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 11:56 AM

Jun 16, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Avi B
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #19 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

CPOL. Linear Pols don't work on AF...

The rotating ring is part of the CPOL.

But do NOT skimp on the CPOL, get the best you can afford. It's a one-time buy. I have the B+W MRC CPOL and it's really nice. I believe the kaesemann filters are even better... Anyway, my vote is a top notch filter like the one I got or a Hoya Super HMC.

Jun 16, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #20 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Same thinking here... get just one, and get a good one. I have a 77mm B+W MRC and then I have step-up rings so my smaller-diameter lenses (e.g. the 105VR 52mm) can use the same 77mm CPL. Carry a filter case with you, so you can take it off and put it away if you find that you want to remove it.

Jun 16, 2008 at 07:56 PM

MrAdventure
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #21 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Everyone seems to have the right basic plan for that event.

I would take one zoom usually the 70-200mm attached to one body, and one wide angle. I also always have a fast prime such as my 85mm for those isolation and tight headshot snipes of interesting people in the crowd.

The reason I recommend two separate bodies is to cut down on the chance of dust getting into your main camera body when you change from telephoto to wide lenses. That is, if you can afford it....that would be my kit choice.

Edited by MrAdventure on Jun 16, 2008 at 08:18 PM GMT

Edited on Jun 16, 2008 at 08:18 PM

Jun 16, 2008 at 08:00 PM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #22 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

can i ask if you do need a UV filter on top of the circular PL filter? or theres no need for the UV filter once you have a PL filter in?

Jun 16, 2008 at 08:13 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #23 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

No need for the UV in addition to the CPL.

I've read in several places (but cannot confirm) that digital is much less sensitive to UV than film, so the only really important reason to use a UV filter is to protect the front lens element from physical damage. I'd also rather be cleaning and rubbing a $70 filter than a $5,000 lens every day... when, not if, I eventually scratch one, it'll be easier to replace. But that's the old "to-UV-or-not-to-UV" debate, which is not what you asked about!

Jun 16, 2008 at 10:39 PM

D300
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #24 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

Thanks Rodolfo!

Jun 16, 2008 at 11:24 PM

Rodolfo Paiz
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #25 · weekend kit suggestion - airshow and static display

MrAdventure wrote:
The reason I recommend two separate bodies is to cut down on the chance of dust getting into your main camera body when you change from telephoto to wide lenses. That is, if you can afford it....that would be my kit choice.

If you can afford it or borrow it, and if you care enough about the "if" factor, the two-body approach offers another benefit: reducing the likelihood of missing shots while changing lenses, or from having the wrong lens mounted for the shooting opportunity that presents itself. For example, I hated having a long lens mounted and not being able to shoot the portrait of a beaming, waving pilot taxiing by in a beautiful airplane just 30 feet away...

For all-day airshows (or major things like Oshkosh), I carry two bodies: the 200-400 f/4 VR on one D300 with grip, and the 70-200/2.8 VR on another D300 without the grip. The 1.4x comes along for the 200-400, and the 1.7x for the 70-200, in case I need the reach. Finally, I carry memory cards, batteries, water bottle (!), and the rest of my stuff on the ThinkTank Speedbelt. Also on the belt are the 17-55 and an empty pouch for the 70-200 so I can swap those out as I walk around the statics or do people stuff. I'm not an "ultrawide" guy, for some reason.

Setting yourself up for the ifs is one thing. But above all, make sure that you have sunscreen, water, money (for more water, and food, and water, and Gatorade, and water...), and a hat that covers the back of your neck if possible. Amazing just how much sun gets on you at an airshow.

If you care about this kind of stuff, I really urge you to go check out the "Mustangs Air-to-Air" thread over in the Still Life forum. We're already almost to page 90, and this is our second thread after a server SNAFU killed the first. Some amazing talent and knowledge over there, and they're all great about sharing and teaching.

Edited on Jun 17, 2008 at 12:33 AM

Jun 17, 2008 at 12:32 AM


FM Forums \| Nikon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 end