As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

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DavidP
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p.1 #1 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Just got this email from Robert's:

As promised, more information can be found at the following link: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

Based on this statement, and info from a call to TSA, the camera batteries listed here should be fine for carry-on in any quantity.

Lesley Ann Miller of LAT Photographic has taken the time to provide the following information regarding the Lithium Battery/TSA carry on headache we all will face in the new year. I would suggest keeping the information with your equipment so you can better educate your friendly TSA agents the next time you fly. A special thanks to Lesley for taking the time to do this.

Canon EOS-1D Mark III (LP-E4)
11.1v 2300mAh
25.53 watt-hours
2.0424 grams lithium content

Canon 40D/5D (BP-511A)
7.4v 1390mAh
10.286 watt-hours
0.82288 grams lithium content

Jan 02, 2008 at 10:44 PM

mill4570
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p.1 #2 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

David,

Thanks for the info.

Richard K.

Jan 03, 2008 at 02:36 AM

amirm
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p.1 #3 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Great info...

Thanks a bunch.

Jan 03, 2008 at 04:00 AM

Keegan Bursaw
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p.1 #4 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Thanks. Will be flying on Sunday so this sure helps a lot!

Jan 03, 2008 at 04:31 AM

stanj
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p.1 #5 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

The problem with the typical TSA person is that when I print out this post they'll sure as hell will believe how much lithium is in my 40D battery. Nor will they know about the official limits, for that matter.

I just had every single lens swabbed, individually, twice, "because that's the correct procedure". I had my small allen wrenches confiscated (those to tighten the camera mount), even though these aren't illegal. Those people do whatever they want, and if I show them a piece of paper they sure will just nod and let me through, seeing it as an educational experience.

Jan 03, 2008 at 04:56 AM

Jason Anderson
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p.1 #6 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Not sure where Leslie from LAT photo got her formulas but I think she's off a smdge. Let's do the math here...a miliamp is 1/1000th of an Amphour (remember your metric conversion tables US people?) So...1390 mAh = 1.39 Ah.

The formula, as I understand it, is to multiply the number of ampere hours by a factor of 0.3. This results in a value of 0.417. If this formula is off, please correct my understanding with the correct formula, and the source/origin of that formula. Hate to pick nits here, but if we all are to become "experts" on calculating lithium content, we should al be operating on the same set of assumptions...

Calculating Lithium Content
http://www.rosebatteries.com/pdfs/DOTshipping.pdf

Jan 03, 2008 at 10:12 AM

teked
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p.1 #7 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Thanks for your efforts on this, David!

I will carry a copy of this in my Lowepro CompuTrekker.

Good luck to all of us that travel with our equipment.

ez

Jan 03, 2008 at 12:41 PM

workerant2
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p.1 #8 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

I traveled to CA in Dec last year and carried 2 spare XTi battery + 1 in the camera. At first I didn't think about how they need to see the camera out of the bag, but then my bag is 1 layer so there shouldn't be any problem seeing it on the Xray. Anyway they told me they needed to rescan the bag. So on my way back I took out the camera and place it outside, they didn't tell me but I did see the Xray machine roll back and run through again while my bag was in the scan.

I wonder if they can see the battery as battery or just a white block. I mean the 2 spare batteries I still have them in it's original box so it won't touch any other metal and they tug nicely on the side of my camera bag. (It's more of a camcorder bag)

Jan 03, 2008 at 01:27 PM

rceres
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p.1 #9 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

I've been travelling with laptop and 3 large Li-Ion batteries and 2 spare 5D batteries, not a problem on 15 flights in the last year or so.

Jan 03, 2008 at 01:46 PM

prof_fate
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p.1 #10 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

rceres wrote:
I've been travelling with laptop and 3 large Li-Ion batteries and 2 spare 5D batteries, not a problem on 15 flights in the last year or so.

New rules go into effect for 2008. Apparently there was a fire on a plane in Phila that was traced back to LiIon batts in customers luggage.

Jan 03, 2008 at 02:17 PM

bobsofpa
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p.1 #11 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

This is a NEW rule that will not go in effect until mid Jan?? 2008 so it would not have affected anyone on any previous flight.

Jan 03, 2008 at 02:23 PM

Doug Pardee
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p.1 #12 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Jason Anderson wrote:The formula, as I understand it, is to multiply the number of ampere hours by a factor of 0.3. This results in a value of 0.417. If this formula is off, please correct my understanding with the correct formula, and the source/origin of that formula.

You're almost there. That's the formula for a cell in the battery. Then you have to sum the cells. A 7.4v Li-Ion battery has two cells, while an 11.1v has three cells. So in this case the result is 0.834 grams, not 0.417. Still, it's a long long way from the 8 gram threshold at which the "quantity 2" limit kicks in (the lightest 8g ELC Li-Ion battery that I can find weighs almost a kilo).

As for the source, I'm going off the actual regulation (49 CFR 171.8), but the site that you referenced says the same thing:
Equivalent lithium content: Calculated in grams on per-cell basis as 0.3 times the rated capacity of the cell in Amperehours times the number of cells per pack

Jan 03, 2008 at 04:47 PM

Chris Dees
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p.1 #13 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Another reason to avoid the US

Jan 03, 2008 at 05:47 PM

DavidP
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p.1 #14 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Jason Anderson wrote:
The formula, as I understand it, is to multiply the number of ampere hours by a factor of 0.3. This results in a value of 0.417.

You've got the formula wrong.

From the website: http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

"8 grams of equivalent lithium content is approximately 100 watt-hours. "

You need to multiply the Amp-hours by the Voltage to get watt-hours.

Then multiply that by 0.08 to get grams of equivalent lithium content.

Jan 03, 2008 at 06:42 PM

Bob Martin
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p.1 #15 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

I'm trying to catch up on this information. I'm flying from California to Hawaii in April to photograph a wedding and plan on taking three BP-511A Li-on and a dozen AA NiMH batteries in my carry-on case. Am I going to run into trouble at the airport?

Jan 03, 2008 at 08:43 PM

Doug Pardee
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p.1 #16 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

DavidP: the watt-hours figure is, as they noted, "approximately". Working backwards from 8g ELC, we get 8/0.3 or 26-2/3 amp-hours per cell. At 3.7v per cell (nominal), that's 98-2/3 watt-hours. Or as they say, "approximately 100 watt-hours".

In other words, both methods work pretty well - whether you convert to watt-hours first or just work in cells and mAh. The difference is around 1%. But the official method, called out in 49 CFR 171.8, is to use cells and amp-hours.

Bob Martin: No problem. Just make sure that your BP-511s are packaged so that the contacts can't short out. And as you have already planned, keep them in your carry-on. The NiMH batteries are not an issue at all.

Edited by Doug Pardee on Jan 03, 2008 at 01:01 PM GMT

Edited on Jan 03, 2008 at 09:01 PM

Jan 03, 2008 at 08:59 PM

nickrh
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p.1 #17 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

As far as I can tell these regulations went into effect on Jan 1st, has anyone heard otherwise?

I flew on Jan 1st from IND to MSP with a half-dozen electronic devices / spare batteries. TSA didn't stop me or anyone else that I could see (I had some time to kill so I sat and watched for a bit).

The one interesting thing I noticed is that a couple of the flights had TSA workers re-examining everyone's carry-on bags at the gate, just before boarding the plane. Not sure if that's related to the battery thing or not.

Nick

Jan 03, 2008 at 08:59 PM

Jason Anderson
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p.1 #18 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Thanks for the correction Doug - I made a comment in the other thread to that effect too...the only body I own is an XT (soon to change - hello 40D!)

While I did know about summing the cells, I went on what was apparently a dangerous assumption that the batteries for all cameras would fall into the single cell category. I'll be updating the page I put together with this information later today (I meant to do it last night but got sidelined by the sand man earlier than usual...)

Jan 04, 2008 at 10:59 AM

J.D.
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p.1 #19 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

We have very specific rules on how many and what types of lithium batteries we can carry on board (for Beta SX video cameras). No single battery is allowed to have more than 8 grams of lithium. That means there are approved and non-approved types. Our old favourites, the Sony BP90L batteries carry too much so we have had to jettison those and upgrade our entire battery fleet.

They also specify that the batteries must have their terminals taped and there must be physical separation, via a board or piece of packing foam, so that they cannot come into contact with each other. The batteries must be carried it an ICAO approved case, either the dedicated $600 aluminium job or a Pelican which is what we use. They must not be put into the cargo hold and have to be carried on board as personal luggage.

Most people know that lithium is dangerous and has blown factory roofs off (including, it is rumoured, Sony's in the late '90s). A TV crew from Western Australia had the dubious distinction of being the first people here to have an in-flight incident with a lithium battery a few years ago when one of them started smouldering. The current rules were not in force at the time. I have not heard of any repeat problems since then.

Edited on Jan 04, 2008 at 11:12 AM

Jan 04, 2008 at 11:11 AM

workerant2
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p.1 #20 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

I do see a concern for Lithium. it is very powerful and can discharge fast. Unlike other chemical before that won't discharge all at once even when shorted.

Lithium can build up enough eat to explode while others just hot.

Anyway, my safety is putting the batt in it's original box that I got it.. so no chance of it touching any other metal to discharge and cause fire nor explode.

Jan 07, 2008 at 03:07 AM

danmitchell
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p.1 #21 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

prof_fate wrote:
New rules go into effect for 2008. Apparently there was a fire on a plane in Phila that was traced back to LiIon batts in customers luggage.

Sort of. The way I heard the story they were unable to definitively rule out the batteries as the cause of the fire.

Hmmm.

Jan 07, 2008 at 03:50 AM

danmitchell
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p.1 #22 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

By the way, I flew between the SF Bay area and SeaTac on Jan 1 and Jan 4 carrying a 5D with a BP511A installed, 4 lenses, tripod head, 2 additional batteries in baggies, all in one bag...

... and they didn't bat an eyelash at this when it went through the x-ray machine.

So far I haven't been hassled at all over photo equipment. I wonder if some of you who have been might share some information about where and when you were treated differently. It would be good to know.

Dan

Jan 07, 2008 at 03:54 AM

Jason Anderson
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p.1 #23 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

Well, that's what you get with the TSA - inconsistent application of regulations, ignorant inspectors, and a badge. Fun stuff, eh? I actually read somewhere where someone heard a story about an FBI agent, who (while armed and on duty) was told to dump his Styrofoam cup of coffee before going through security. He quizzically looked at the TSA agent and asked why - to which the agent responded "A razor blade or some sharp object could be hidden at the bottom."

Apparently, the response was something to the effect of "Son, I've got a 9mm Glock strapped to my hip with over 60 rounds of ammunition - do you really think I am hiding a razor blade?" He then walked through the "security" with the coffee and laughed his way down to the gate. I would have loved to been a fly on the wall for that conversation!

Of course, I am guessing the fish was not as big as this story is, but that's the version I read...and it struck a chord with me...

Jan 07, 2008 at 04:10 AM

Sirius
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p.1 #24 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

I asked Canon how much lithium was in a LP-E4 battery.

This is what they say:

Thank you for your E-mail inquiry regarding your EOS 1D Mark III camera.

Each LP-E4 battery pack has approximately 1 gram of lithium.

Should you require further assistance, please feel free to email us or visit our customer support website at http://www.canon.ca

Sincerely,

Branko G.

Technical Support Representative

Customer Information Centre

Canon Canada Inc.

http://www.canon.ca/digitalphotography

Jan 07, 2008 at 05:38 AM

J.D.
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p.1 #25 · As many Li-Ions as you want on planes!

1 gram is not a problem. What you need to do is carry something from Canon which declares how much each battery holds.

Jan 07, 2008 at 06:07 AM


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