['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

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Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Glen_C
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p.55 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

BINGO.

jianghai_ho wrote:
The main benefit of AI servo for me is that focus is not locked - i.e. IF the subject (*or indeed the photographer) *moves* the camera can adjust to that movement. I ONLY use One Shot when the camera is on a tripod and the subject is still - when AI Servo could go into a feedback loop (like IS on a tripod). Remember that when you handhold even if the subject is still you can cause "movement" - because you are moving.

One Shot simply calculates the focus *it* thinks is best and goes to it, then stops. Doesn't make one shot more accurate than servo, i.e. whether it is or is not in focus it will stop wherever it feels it's got focus. It has it's place, for sure, but most of the time (for me), the chance that there will be some sort of movement (photographer, subject, etc) vastly outweigh the actual (or perceived) increase in accuracy of One Shot.

Someone please correct me if my conclusions are wildly inaccurate, but sometimes the FUD that gets spread around the internet is a little ridiculous (again IMHO). As far as I'm concerned actual field experience means a ton more than being able to quote from a users manual, and understanding of the actual mechanics (through theory and experience) is more important than (again) what's in the manual – How many here with older "fixed" 1D Mark IIIs actually believe what canon is now saying about the fix?

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:14 AM

apdieb
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p.55 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

I use AI Servo and One-Shot... But in theory, since I use the AF-On button...in AI-SERVO a simple press and release is the same thing right? But by using AI-SERVO, I have the option of holding it down to engage continuous AF... Wouldn't that be an accurate statement?

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:18 AM

Glen_C
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p.55 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

yes

Mar 28, 2008 at 04:23 AM

Alistair Watson
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p.55 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hi Photon,

The most significant difference between the way I configure the AF on my 1D2N and my 1D3 for sports and action stuff is the use of AF Expand. On my 1D2N I never used it for sports or motorsport, never really needed to. Sure, in low light (say rugby under floodlights at night) the AF on the N isn't as responsive as in bright light but giving the AF a fraction of a second longer to track before firing the shutter dramatically increases the keep rate - no surprise there.

The Mark 3 is different, I leave left/right AF expand dialled in all the time now, whatever the light, this gives me the keeper rate I need. For motorsport this doesn't cause me a problem because the car is covered by many more AF points. For rugby, where the players are often in a very tight group, from time to time I do see that the expand point has focussed, rather than the centre point, and thus at the slim dof a 400mm gives at f2.8 the wrong player is in focus. An annoyance? Yes, but I am learning to live with, or should I say 'tolerate' it.

I have experimented at length with the AI Servo tracking sensitivity. I didn't get on with +1 at all and at -1, well for what I shoot and for the way I shoot, lets just say 0 works best.

Side by side in good light at low ISOs, I still believe the N to have the more consistent AF system. That is to say, once it has acquired lock on the subject and assuming I smoothly track with the subject keeping the AF point in place.

With the N, I get far fewer (read hardly any) shots within the sequence out of focus, the Mark 3 does still yield the odd few frames out of focus for apparently no reason, again this decreases further using Expand, but not quite to the level I am used to with the N.

There is alot to like about the Mark 3, the ability to shoot very very useable results at ISO 6400 is great, the camera handling is far superior in my opinion so yes, I do like the 1D3. Will I ever love and trust it as much as my 1D2N? Not ever. Hopefully whatever replaces the 1D3 will restore this balance and I can go back to running 2 of the same model of body once again.

Hope this is useful.

Alistair

Mar 28, 2008 at 11:23 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.55 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hrow wrote:
Many near macro shooters use Servo to compensate for photographer movement when shooting hand held.

I agree. This twig was moving because of a slight wind. MF was useless. AI servo nailed it.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:16 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.55 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hrow wrote:
In fact, when shooting in close and using AF, choosing One Shot is a pretty good way to guarantee that you will miss focus.

Hummmmm………..

I had good success with non moving subjects in One shot mode.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 28, 2008 at 02:21 PM

Hrow
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p.55 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

My only point is that one would be amazed at how much the photographer moves during a shot. If you are dead steady then great but that is a rarity (hence the need for tripods). Consider that head movement of an inch is a far greater percentage of the camera/subject distance when the subject is 18 inches away then it is when it is 18 feet away. When you AF on a subject at close distances and then move your head that one inch then there is a pretty good chance the shot is blown.

Once again we are back to the old saying that just because you can do something doesn't mean it is a good F'ing idea.

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:08 PM

lidesun
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p.55 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Sorry to say i have read some many misleading info here regarding how to use ONESHOT and AI SERVO, very interesting though.....

Mar 28, 2008 at 03:22 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.55 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Hrow wrote:
Once again we are back to the old saying that just because you can do something doesn't mean it is a good F'ing idea.

My wife keeps reminding me that, on different matters….

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Mar 30, 2008 at 07:29 AM

gbee
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p.55 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Personally, I've more or less found expansion to be too close to the ring of fire responses. If your lead player is in front, then fine ~ if not you that that nice tackle, to his side ~~

Alistair Watson wrote:from time to time I do see that the expand point has focussed, rather than the centre point, and thus at the slim dof a 400mm gives at f2.8 the wrong player is in focus. An annoyance? Yes, but I am learning to live with, or should I say 'tolerate' it.Alistair

Mar 30, 2008 at 09:04 AM

dvarnav
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p.55 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Yakim Peled wrote:
Hrow wrote:
Many near macro shooters use Servo to compensate for photographer movement when shooting hand held.

I agree. This twig was moving because of a slight wind. MF was useless. AI servo nailed it.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

This photo was taken with a 40D not a markIII is that true?

Mar 30, 2008 at 09:55 AM

Ron Hew
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p.55 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

dvarnav wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
Hrow wrote:
Many near macro shooters use Servo to compensate for photographer movement when shooting hand held.

I agree. This twig was moving because of a slight wind. MF was useless. AI servo nailed it.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

This photo was taken with a 40D not a markIII is that true?

I guess it is so what is your point?

Mar 30, 2008 at 11:07 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.55 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Mar 30, 2008 at 02:37 PM

Hrow
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p.55 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Yakim Peled wrote:
Hrow wrote:
Once again we are back to the old saying that just because you can do something doesn't mean it is a good F'ing idea.

My wife keeps reminding me that, on different matters….

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

It's interesting how many things are the same the world over.

Mar 30, 2008 at 03:42 PM

dIggO
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p.55 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Last thursday was a big drama at the repair facility(ETB) in the Netherlands.
I arrived at 8:30 for the problems with my 1DMIII. The "stopper-fix" was applied but didn't fix anything in my problem area, One Shot Focus ánd AI Servo Focus, as expected... What can a stopper do for me if focus cannot be obtained. It can only approve tracking in burst mode(in some weather conditions...).
11:30 they said the repair was "done", so I went out for a quick check. Nothing was really improved, so I went back and told them so. The technician came out to talk with me, and I easily convinced him of the problems I saw with the focussing of the camera. He told me he would enhance the contrast for the autofocus system and if that didn't help he would replace the entire mirrorbox and AF-system.
I had to return at 14:30.
At my return no mirrorbox and/or AF-systemn was replaced due to the fact that he couldn't get it out 'cause it was stuck(?) He asked me to return the other day because by then he would have looked at it with a colleague.
Next day return, after a replacement of the mirrorbox and AF-system there is still no improvement in the AF-system... There must be something fundamentaly wrong with this camera... And he and his colleagues agreed.
I have to call Canon CPS tomorrow and hoping for a replacement, as the repair facility is not able to help me any further... They also said, a replacement would be just in your case. They would call CPS also tomorrow...

I'm hoping for the best, as I totally lost confidence...

dIggO

Mar 30, 2008 at 04:26 PM

Photon
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p.55 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Alistair Watson wrote:
Hi Photon,

The most significant difference between the way I configure the AF on my 1D2N and my 1D3 for sports and action stuff is the use of AF Expand.
...
...
With the N, I get far fewer (read hardly any) shots within the sequence out of focus, the Mark 3 does still yield the odd few frames out of focus for apparently no reason, again this decreases further using Expand, but not quite to the level I am used to with the N.

There is alot to like about the Mark 3, the ability to shoot very very useable results at ISO 6400 is great, the camera handling is far superior in my opinion so yes, I do like the 1D3. Will I ever love and trust it as much as my 1D2N? Not ever. Hopefully whatever replaces the 1D3 will restore this balance and I can go back to running 2 of the same model of body once again.

Hope this is useful.

Alistair

Very useful, thank you!
In my much more limited experience shooting sports, I haven't yet made a significant determination of overall AF superiority for either body (1D2, 1D3). On the other hand, in my own primary work, events and portraits (which one might expect to be less demanding of AF performance than sports), I feel I've been burned by AF misses with the Mk3 that the Mk2 would have nailed. That's balanced by the fact that the Mk3 does better at AF in low light (not to mention lower noise at high ISO). Your statement comparing your trust of your two cameras matches my feelings about mine, with the added issue that the "original" 1D2 has smaller LCD and other minor debits compared to the 1D2N, let alone the 1D3.

Mar 30, 2008 at 04:32 PM

dvarnav
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p.55 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

dIggO actually it seems that there must be something wrong with the tech department in NL and by that I mean that everytime they are sending out from service the camera they have not checked it or the y they have misschecked. This is not the original service procedure from Canon Service Centers. If they are not able to find-out if a camera has AF issues how can they actually repair it. That was my initial idea here in Greece but then I made a lot of tests by myself to re-produce the tech's saying and we proved that he was right about how good my MarkIII is actually was focusing. By changing the mirrorbox only problems could make and not making solutions and when I hear stuked parts well how can we describe my major fears then about the repair. Now the only solution is CPS contact and they must give a finall solution AT ONCE

Mar 30, 2008 at 04:41 PM

Alistair Watson
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p.55 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Alistair Watson wrote:from time to time I do see that the expand point has focussed, rather than the centre point, and thus at the slim dof a 400mm gives at f2.8 the wrong player is in focus. An annoyance? Yes, but I am learning to live with, or should I say 'tolerate' it.Alistair

gbee wrote:
Personally, I've more or less found expansion to be too close to the ring of fire responses. If your lead player is in front, then fine ~ if not you that that nice tackle, to his side ~~

For rugby, at least in my experience, I don't think you can compare centre point AF with left/right expand versus all 19 points active in 'ring of fire' mode.

Even if the lead player is in front, then there is no guarantee ring of fire will focus on that player.

In ring of fire the decision on which AF point to lock is solely down to the camera, thus if you have 4 players in the viewfinder then the camera will decide which one to focus on. In this situation there is a huge margin for error because only one of those players has the ball and he is the one you want to focus on. Using centre point with left right expand, imo, is far more sensible since it is primarily you who keep the player you want in focus covered by the central AF sensor. In this case left right epxand does work because usually a player is covered by at least 2 AF points so if expand activates when the centre point loses lock then fine. Where I find the problem is where there are (say) 8 players very tight together. Here left/right expand can cause a problem because if lock is lost then expand will more than likely pick up another player, at this point it is hit or miss if that player is in the same small focal plane or not.

Horses for courses I suppose, and the focussing method is down to the photographer.

Mar 30, 2008 at 04:42 PM

Photon
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p.55 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Alistair Watson wrote:

Horses for courses I suppose, and the focussing method is down to the photographer.

I think a really accurate eye-controlled-focus system would be ideal (until we get to brain-controlled

), but for now it would be nice if Canon set up the joystick (multi-controller) to choose point by lever action and activate AF by press. If our only option for a single control selecting points is going to remain the rear dial (by custom function), then they need to add a second main dial on top so shutter and aperture can also be selected with single movements (in manual exposure mode).

Am I the only one who thinks this way?

Mar 30, 2008 at 11:25 PM

mark fadely
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p.55 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

apdieb wrote:
You mentioned CFIII-0 change to 1... That is the USM Lens Electronic MF correct? Gotta admit, not sure how that would help with AI Servo...but geez.. worth a shot...

Please correct me if I am wrong about which CF you're speaking about.

Thanks for posting this info!!! Otherwise I probably would've never tried changing that setting. Wow!

I tried this setting and noticed an improvement of in focus shots within a burst. I first made the change from c.fnIII/1-0 to c.fnIII/1-1. Surprisingly it tracked better but some of the first shots in a burst were still oof. I found that if I changed it to c.fnIII/1-2(Disable in AF mode) then the first shot of the burst was in focus most every time.

I assume having the electronic manual focus enabled is somehow inhibiting the focus ability in ai-servo during bursts. My MKIII was working pretty well before but this has netted a noticeable 10 - 20% increase in keepers. This one setting change has made a significant difference. With a lot of the other C.fn settings I notice little or no change while shooting.

I have been busy testing the AF for the last two weeks mostly on birds in flight. I'm also using center point with no expansion c.fnIII/8-0.

I won't be sure till the end of this week but I think the MarkIII is going to match my MkIIn in focus abilities for birds in flight.

All the settings have been dialed in on larger birds like ducks and geese. I am going to do a side by side comparison of the Mk2n and MkIII shooting small birds in flight this week.

I'm going back an revisiting all the other C.fn settings at this point. I had played around with most of them but results might be different with after this. Here is my current setup:

C.fn III
1. 2 (Disable in AF mode)
2. med-fast
3. 1 (AF priaority/Drive speed priority
4. 0 (Main focus point priority)
5. 0 (Focus search on)
6. 0 (AF stop)
7. 2 (Adj by lens +15) (400 5.6 lens used)
8. 0 (Disable)
9. 1(Inner 9 points)
10. 1(Enable)
11. 0
12. 0
13. 0
14. 1
15. 0
16. -
17. -

I hope some others will see an improvement also. Thanks again for this post.

Mar 31, 2008 at 01:14 PM

Rob Whiting
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p.55 #21 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Interesting about the C.Fn 3-1.. The manual lists all the super telephotos in that section except the 500 F4 which is my primary lens. It also doesn't your 400 5.6 either..

I don't now what 'Electronic MF' is as I don't own any of the lenses listed. Are their manual focus rings electronic rather than mechanical?

I guess it can't hurt to try disabling it.

Mar 31, 2008 at 02:33 PM

DavidP
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p.55 #22 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Rob Whiting wrote:
I don't now what 'Electronic MF' is as I don't own any of the lenses listed. Are their manual focus rings electronic rather than mechanical?

Yes. These are lenses like the 85/1.2 and 200/1.8

With these lenses, you cannot manually focus the lens unless the camera is turned on. You can turn the ring all you want, but the lens won't change focus.

Mar 31, 2008 at 02:49 PM

Alistair Watson
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p.55 #23 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Photon wrote:
...but for now it would be nice if Canon set up the joystick (multi-controller) to choose point by lever action and activate AF by press....

If you have registered an AF point then by pressing and holding the joystick with your thumb the AF will activate, if you releas your thumb and press again then it will switch back to your previously chosen point. Personally I find this uncomfortable for extended periods of time because the button is shaped to be 'thumbed grip' rather than continuous pressure.

I don't want ECF again, though brain controlled focus might help! If I had one wish, it would be for Canon to bring back the 'dual back button' approach a la 1D2N. One button for your selected point, then the next button for your registered point, so quick to shift the position of your thumb.

Mar 31, 2008 at 03:22 PM

mark fadely
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p.55 #24 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Yep, like David says, they are electronic. It makes sense that as the camera cycles though its software loop the MF check could throw off the system. It is a bug in the software but I'm convinced it's there. It should be able to be fixed by a firmware update since it must be software related. It is a strange quirk, but it makes a lot of sense to me that this is what's happening.

Mar 31, 2008 at 03:25 PM

Photon
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p.55 #25 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

Alistair Watson wrote:
Photon wrote:
...but for now it would be nice if Canon set up the joystick (multi-controller) to choose point by lever action and activate AF by press....

If you have registered an AF point then by pressing and holding the joystick with your thumb the AF will activate, if you releas your thumb and press again then it will switch back to your previously chosen point. Personally I find this uncomfortable for extended periods of time because the button is shaped to be 'thumbed grip' rather than continuous pressure.

I don't want ECF again, though brain controlled focus might help! If I had one wish, it would be for Canon to bring back the 'dual back button' approach a la 1D2N. One button for your selected point, then the next button for your registered point, so quick to shift the position of your thumb.

Yes, kidding aside I'm in complete agreement. I never got consistent results with ECF on my EOS3, and ultimately disabled it. I'm aware of those joystick functions; I just don't find it works as well for me as the "dual back button" set up on my Mk2.

Mar 31, 2008 at 05:01 PM


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