fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              71       72       end
  

Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

  
 
Jeff
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


IMHO it's quite clear from RG's images provided today that the camera still suffers some sort of inherent design flaw in the system, obviously affecting more than just the sub-mirror assembly. There are two things I found particularly disturbing about RG's report:

1) The little ditty about setting AF Microadjustment to -1 fixing some of the issues, and all the caveats thrown in. If you haven't read that part, you need to see it, it's really a rather odd response from Canon as to how the function should be used, and not used.

2) And, more importantly, I must point out a very interesting phenomenon in the 'fast runner ' series, something I've occasionally noticed about my MkIII's soft images. The examples show it very clearly and consistently, and I've not heard RG or anyone else comment on it with respect to actual example images. I've provided a screengrab at the bottom of the post to clearly show what I'm talking about.

[In regard to RG's 'fast runner', I would agree that about 50% is closer to the mark for the MkIII in the 'fast' running sequence (the MkIIn did indeed perform significantly better). For some reason the hurdle sequence was better, perhaps illustrating the somewhat random nature of the beast, although the subject in that one was wearing a white shirt.]

Note in the screen grab below that virtually every time the MkIII has an out-of-focus image, it almost ALWAYS exhibits some sort of secondary 'ghost' image, suggestive of some sort of movement (which at 1/8000th, I'd think is unlikely on RG's part). This is very clearly and consistently exhibited on the 'Brooks' logo the runner's blue shirt, since it has a high-contrast area (dark background with white lettering). With the camera in the vertical orientation, the 'Brooks' logo has a ghosted image above it, indicating some sort of movement somewhere in the system (side-to-side in relation to a landscape orientation). This would obviously contribute to an image's overall softness regardless of the actual focal plane, though it appears to me to be consistenly manifested mostly when the camera ALSO has focused either slightly in front of (or more typically) slightly behind the subject. Note that the MkIIn's OOF images do not exhibit this odd characteristic (at least that I could find), suggesting the lens has nothing to do with it.

Whether the cause of this apparent 'movement' in the system is also causing the focus errors becomes the question in my mind (there is also a chicken-and-egg component here). I suppose there is always the slight chance that it could be lens/IS related, but I would doubt that he was using IS for such sequences, and one would expect it would have been duplicated in the MkIIn images. I have no idea what component in the system could be moving, whether it is a result of the new anti-dust mechanism, due to the sensor moving (which seems unlikely), or some sort of overall 'looseness' in the parts of the camera that is exacerbated by the MkIII's extremely fast shooting rate.

Like I said, I have noticed these 'ghosted' secondary images in several of my OOF MkIII images, and as you all have probably seen, there is a fair amount of internet chatter about overall image softness (not the all-over OOF 'misses' that we've seen so much of), though image softness can often be attributable to user error of a variety of sorts.

====> I would suggest that any of you interested take a close look into this series of images and see if you agree with what I'm seeing. It's quite obvious once you start really looking at the images at 100%.

[ As an aside, I'm currently using the Trial version of CS3, and Bridge3 makes it really, really easy to quickly evaluate these images, especially with the 100% loupe feature (a la Aperture). Nice! ]

I love this camera, the files from it are exceptional, but I bought it to shoot outdoor sports (in addition to serving the purpose that my 1Ds served, which it admirably can). This issue clearly has not been resolved, and it's writing on the wall for the 1DsMkIII (which is, I'm certain, why Rob took so long to make certain of his results). It's also clear by reading in between the lines that it affects every single MkIII produced prior to October 2007, despite the fact that some people have not seen any AF inconsistencies in their specific usage(s). For example, notice that they are no longer talking about 'adjustment', but 'replacement'.

Anyway, more food for thought. Mine will be getting the submirror fix, but to what end remains unclear for my shooting.

Regards,

Jeff

PS: I'd be very curious to hear others' thoughts on a potential reason for the results noted in the screengrab below. I'm getting tired of talking about this too, but RG's tests are significant points of data in this ongoing puzzle, and today's installment provides a compelling illustration of the camera's ongoing AF quirks.


Edited by Jeff on Dec 10, 2007 at 07:11 PM GMT (Reason: Moved wide image below to re-wrap text properly)

Edited by Jeff on Jan 03, 2008 at 02:37 PM GMT (Reason: Title change for update)

Edited by Fred Miranda on Jan 07, 2008 at 03:23 PM GMT

Edited by Jeff on Jan 23, 2008 at 03:55 PM GMT (Reason: Title change for final update)

Edited by Jeff on Jan 26, 2008 at 12:37 PM GMT (Reason: yet another title update to reflect current status)

Edited by Jeff on Feb 16, 2008 at 10:18 AM GMT (Reason: alas, another title change for clarity!)



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:04 PM
Guest

Guest
p.1 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
And lastly, a 'typical' front-focus image from the test sequence:

my "fixed" camera front focus' as well.
first shot front focus, second shot focused. NO change except repressiing button. This is on single shot on static target.



Dec 22, 2007 at 03:27 AM
Jeff
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Screengrab (from RG's "Fast1" sequences):







Dec 10, 2007 at 09:05 PM
jianghai_ho
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I concur with your findings re: the ghosting issue... Typically for my Mk III it's the same problem as well - the out of focus images tend to be a little off, and sometimes I can't tell whether it's movement or out of focus or both. Perhaps it is because of the vibrating filter?

Mine is in for the fix right now, and will be back shortly. I've not run into huge problems so far with it, but there's been enough of a problem to require sending in.



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:15 PM
timbop
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Nice analysis Jeff. I have a feeling that 2007 will be remembered as the year canon laid 3 eggs*. Oddly enough, it seems that the 40d will probably be the best of the 3 new cams, and it is woefully outclassed by the d300. It's a shame, but canon got complacent in the midrange and suffered from an engineering mistake in the high end.
The good news is that 2008 will (hopefully) see the resurgence of innovation and putting everything into each product.

* OK, the 40D will prove to be a great midlevel camera so it doesn't actually qualify as an "egg".



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:24 PM
simonella_viru
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


hey, what about resonance? perhaps the 10fps hits some natural frequency within the camera body. this could effectively shake certain components and create this.

london bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down...



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:26 PM
John Power
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


My N is on the way.....low clicks, $2300...yeah baby. Hope you "3" owners get this one worked out.


Dec 10, 2007 at 09:29 PM
Jeff
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Thinking more about this, I'm now wondering if if the AF 'problem' is worse when shooting vertically, compared to horizontally...


Dec 10, 2007 at 09:35 PM
ward1066
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


It also seems the soft pics are in a series and then the camera makes some adjustment then goes blurry again. The more i think about it, it seems like some kind of processing problem rather than hardware


Dec 10, 2007 at 09:35 PM
DavidP
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I'm a bit confused. Look at a shot like #12 (of Fast #1). The face is definitely just out of focus (or motion blur, which seems impossible). And yet the foot is in focus (though perhaps just within the DOF (when viewed at an enormous size, like the equivalent of a 26" x 39" print).

To me, the entire series looks just a wee bit front-focused.

But honestly, when viewed at something like 10" x 15" on the screen, almost all shots are "acceptable", and perhaps even within Canon's specs (1/3 DOF at 8x12?). #12 is one that would be just past "acceptable" at that size, to me.

Another thing . . . I'm not sure my 1D-2 would give a series of shots any better than this (even though RobG's seems to). Does he just have some spectacular 1D-2's?

And one last comment . . given this much light, I'd simply stop down to f/4 for shots like this, which would probably make ALL of them acceptable. If you look at the DOF in these shots at f/2.8, it leaves little margin for error. I'd take a bit less background blur at f/4 in a situation like this to get a crisper-looking subject. Wouldn't you?



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:52 PM
PetKal
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
IMHO it's quite clear from RG's images provided today that the camera still suffers some sort of inherent design flaw in the system, obviously affecting more than just the sub-mirror assembly.


I agree with you on that one, based on a series of symptoms we have seen in the past 6 months or so. It looks as if Canon have been trying to mitigate the problem with iterative design band-aiding . That approach may yield incremental improvements which should tie them over until the next model camera is ready for release.



Dec 10, 2007 at 09:58 PM
gene A.
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I'm not sure if its related or not, but I do alot of aerial photography, and when I use a gyro-stabilizer on the camera and we're banking tightly around a site I sometime have a situation where the resulting images are sharp in the center but very fuzzy at the horizontal ends of the image. I always felt that it was caused by some sort of torsional vibration. Is there something going on inside the MkIII's that might cause a similar effect.

I can also tell you from working closely with japanese engineers at a previous job that even if they know what the problem is they are very unlikely to ever release that information to anyone here in the United States. That would be admitting a mistake and losing face.



Dec 10, 2007 at 10:31 PM
Wickedfn4u
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


That ghosting is just like mine only the ones pre fix were worse. I described it as looking through a blur filter


Dec 10, 2007 at 10:45 PM
DavidP
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, you should email this to RobG to get his comments on it.


Dec 10, 2007 at 10:48 PM
R Longenbach
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I second DavidP on that Jeff.


Dec 10, 2007 at 11:33 PM
DavidP
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


R Longenbach wrote:
I second DavidP on that Jeff.


Thanks.

Just MAYBE Canon could use these image to pick up on that "something else" that seems to be causing issues and figure out how to fix it.



Dec 10, 2007 at 11:58 PM
nathanlake
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I sort of wish the two camera (IIN and III) had been set up and fired simultaneously. Would have been a more interesting comparison and perhas more useful comparison.




Dec 11, 2007 at 12:16 AM
Melor
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Good catch Jeff.

I think the III will be remebered as a cursed body and will have the shortest production run time of any of the 1D digital bodies. Very unfortunate, but not entirely unexpected when you consider how many envelopes a body like this pushes.

I fully anticipate the production run of 1D3's to be the shortest in the 1D series. We will find out soon enough. I wonder if the next body will be a 1D3N, 1D4, or possibly skipping an unlucky "4" go right to the 1D5?


Paul




Dec 11, 2007 at 12:32 AM
csm
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Great analysis Jeff! Mine goes back tomorrow...will see how it works out.


Dec 11, 2007 at 12:37 AM
Jeff
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


DavidP wrote:
Jeff, you should email this to RobG to get his comments on it.


I did exactly that this morning as soon as I took a look at his images. Something tells me Canon will be a little less 'proactive' in running this one down. I think the submirror certainly fixed some issues with the jumpy/errant AF points, but this is clearly something different. And odd.

nathanlake wrote:
I sort of wish the two camera (IIN and III) had been set up and fired simultaneously. Would have been a more interesting comparison and perhas more useful comparison.


Maybe, but frankly I was impressed with the consistency of Rob's images between the two series. Gives credence to his shooting skills and methods, to be sure.



Dec 11, 2007 at 12:41 AM
       2       3              71       72       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              71       72       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account