ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

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Archive 2007 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #1 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Just on a whim I downloaded the current version of Canon DPP and ran a few images through it. I am just amazed at the superiority that DPP holds over Adobe Camera Raw. Detail, both in shadows and highlights are obviously better and the Orange for Red issue which ACR sometimes gives also seems much improved with DPP. These are out of a Canon 5D. I simply opened the image up in DPP, used the "as shot" WB for the Tugboat and the "auto" WB for the container ship. No other tweaking to get these results. Opening the same images up in ACR, I actually tweaked the settings to try as best as possible to prevent the blown highlights on the Containers, setting the "Recovery" all the way up to 40! and still blown highlights. Probably not news for a lot of you guys but I was literally shocked at the differences. These shots were taken with my 35mm 2.5 Flektogon by the way. Not too shabby!

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Below, Adobe Camera Raw 4.2 on top, Canon DPP 3.02 on bottom:

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Below, Canon DPP 3.02 on Top, Adobe Camera Raw 4.2 on bottom:

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Oct 19, 2007 at 07:23 PM

jonboring
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p.1 #2 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Are you using the latest version of ARC too ?

I found this out about the red conversion with DPP about a year ago. I shot the old fort in St Thomas which was a deep muddy red and ACR kept making it orange. DPP easily spit out the red. Bibble too got much closer to the red. But I haven't done any color test recently with the later versions of ARC.

Have you also looked at uprezing in DPP? I have found that when I "save and convert" in DPP if I let DPP do my uprezing, I get better results than if I try to do it in CS3. However, my uprez process in CS3 may not be the best. I need to try yours per that other thread ... I have tried it quickly but need to devote some serious time to it.

I really like the new controls in ARC for recovery / fill light / b&w conversion and hate to give them up.

Oct 19, 2007 at 08:18 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #3 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

jonboring wrote:
Are you using the latest version of ARC too ?

I found this out about the red conversion with DPP about a year ago. I shot the old fort in St Thomas which was a deep muddy red and ACR kept making it orange. DPP easily spit out the red. Bibble too got much closer to the red. But I haven't done any color test recently with the later versions of ARC.

Have you also looked at uprezing in DPP? I have found that when I "save and convert" in DPP if I let DPP do my uprezing, I get better results than if I try to do it in CS3. However, my uprez process in CS3 may not be the best. I need to try yours per that other thread ... I have tried it quickly but need to devote some serious time to it.

I really like the new controls in ARC for recovery / fill light / b&w conversion and hate to give them up.

Hey Jon,

Yes, most current ACR 4.2 which is the same raw engine used in both CS3 and LightRoom 1.2. These were out of CS3. I have not tried uprezing in DPP yet. Its really a pity that ACR performs so poorly as I also love all the controls and for a lot of shoots, LightRoom is indespensible for editing raw images quickly.

When I shot my Fuji S2 a while back, I went through the same issue with Fuji RAWS being superior in the Fuji software vs ACR. A lot of us Fuji shooters shouted fairly loudly and I think Thomas Knoll heard the call. ACR eventually matched, if not outperformed the Fuji converter. It would be interesting to see what earlier versions of ACR do with this 5D file as the RAW engine in ACR changed last year when Adobe bought RawShooter and switched to their Raw engine. At the time, I did notice that the older, non RawShooter ACR worked better with my Fuji S2 files.

Oct 19, 2007 at 08:54 PM

RobertP
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p.1 #4 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I use DPP and C1, and I can't live without either program. Some images are better in DPP, and some are better in C1.

Much like C1, DPP gives you straight detail, instead of the watercolor painterly look that the RawShooter/SilkyPix engine gives you.

DPP used to stink, but now I must use it along with C1.

Oct 19, 2007 at 09:25 PM

Lotusm50
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p.1 #5 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Aside from color differences, there could be differences in the default amount of sharpening added by each program. This could account for the apparent differences in detail in the images.

Oct 19, 2007 at 09:54 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #6 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Interesting. I haven't used DPP for a while now, mainly because I convert too many images at a time and always found DPP to be a pain in that way. I virtually never convert just one image. C1 is my daily driver but mainly because it's so quick to use, and the image quality is excellent.

I think I'll have to have another look at DPP now. Thanks.
JJ

Oct 19, 2007 at 09:56 PM

fourfa
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p.1 #7 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

there's clearly sharpening being used in DPP, and none in ACR. This is a very worthwhile topic and a good start - but it may take a few tweaks in ACR to be comparing truly similar states of processing.

I think we'll all agree that the default color profiles in ACR could be a lot better for the 5D and other cameras. Applying a static correction in ACR isn't quite the same a properly profiled device that handles different WBs (which is what I'm presuming DPP does) - but it's a big improvement...

Anyone have suggestions for a workflow that can easily accommodate multiple programs; i.e. DPP for basic conversion, DXO for optical correction, LR for toning/categorizing/selecting/keywording, PS for creative editing, etc. Ideally this would happen without generating a new file each step, all in reversible metadata edits, most of it batchable... We still have a long way to go IMO.

Oct 19, 2007 at 10:12 PM

jjlphoto
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p.1 #8 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

There have been many tests and articles stating that DPP can best "unlock the true potential" of the Canon sensors as far as sharpness, H & S detail, and color fidelity goes (only makes sense). I have never liked what ACR does. Never, ever.

I currently use CO v3.7 , but after seeing this, maybe its time to install DPP v3.02 and get uses to the interface.

Thanks!

Did I say that I never liked ACR processed images?

Oct 19, 2007 at 10:45 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #9 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

fourfa wrote:
there's clearly sharpening being used in DPP, and none in ACR. This is a very worthwhile topic and a good start - but it may take a few tweaks in ACR to be comparing truly similar states of processing.

There is actually default sharpening being used in both programs so the statement that there is none being used by ACR is not correct(and this is easily seen if you notice the default sharpening settings in ACR next time you use it). Sharpening can be adjusted quite a bit in ACR of course but what surprises me the most is not the sharpening difference(and I do think DPP is clearly giving more detail beyond just sharpening differences) but that ACR by default AND with tweaking still blows out the highlights and detail with regard to these containers whereas DPP nails things right off. In fact, I don't think you could easily match the DPP result in ACR if at all. At the same time, DPP also retains a little more shadow detail. For the sake of completeness, I will at some point add a C1 Pro conversion as well. I do know C1 Pro by default gives slightly more detail than ACR from past experience but I don't know how it stacks up against DPP.

Oct 19, 2007 at 10:58 PM

jonboring
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p.1 #10 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

John - what is CO ?

Oct 19, 2007 at 11:27 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #11 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I think he meant C1 as in Phase One Capture One Pro perhaps.

Oct 19, 2007 at 11:38 PM

Scott Clark
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p.1 #12 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

There was a big hubub in the Adobe Lightroom forums about ACR, and how Adobe was making noise reduction the number one priority over everything else (even sharpness) and images processed in LR 1.1 were softer than they should be. There were a lot of people up in arms about it. IIRC they made some changes in the latest version that are supposed to help the situation, but it looks like Canon still has an edge (so to speak).

Oct 20, 2007 at 05:21 AM

ovredal73
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p.1 #13 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I really enjoy DPP because the interface is obviously related to the settings in the camera and this means I only need to know "one language" when taking and working with images. Also I find the controls in DPP more userfriendly.

Oct 20, 2007 at 07:09 AM

santi-u
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p.1 #14 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I also use DPP but only for the white balances, never use sharpening controls there, i prefer the PS for that

Oct 20, 2007 at 09:14 AM

SJMD
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p.1 #15 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

dpp works great for me, the others do as well but I find it easy and quick, finish with cs2.

Oct 20, 2007 at 10:57 AM

jjlphoto
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p.1 #16 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

jonboring wrote:
John - what is CO ?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I think he meant C1 as in Phase One Capture One Pro perhaps.

Yes, CO = Capture One. There was a trademark suit a while back and Phase One can no longer use the alpha/numeric term C1 anymore.

Oct 20, 2007 at 11:39 AM

MSC
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p.1 #17 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I agree, DDP is better. I tested against ACR, BBP, C1, and love the results DPP results...and I too was a little suprised at just how much better the DPP results are.

Oct 20, 2007 at 11:43 AM

shirozina
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p.1 #18 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

The latest version of DPP introduced some default noise reduction which ruined the clarity. Easily seen if you flick through the RGB channels in Photoshop at 100% - the blue looks very watercolour like and softened now whereas it used to be nice and defined. I've never seen any sharpening that can't be turned off in C1, ACR or DPP btw. Color and tonal seperation in DPP are superior to all other RAW processors that I have ever used - the subtle gradients that you can get with DPP are the best reason to use it.

Oct 20, 2007 at 04:04 PM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #19 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I can't seem to find where to download the latest DPP....

Oct 20, 2007 at 04:13 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #20 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

shirozina wrote:
The latest version of DPP introduced some default noise reduction which ruined the clarity. Easily seen if you flick through the RGB channels in Photoshop at 100% - the blue looks very watercolour like and softened now whereas it used to be nice and defined. I've never seen any sharpening that can't be turned off in C1, ACR or DPP btw. Color and tonal seperation in DPP are superior to all other RAW processors that I have ever used - the subtle gradients that you can get with DPP are the best reason to use it.

So, is this extra default noise reduction in the current DPP unable to be turned off? I noticed the noise reduction option and had all variables set to 0 or off. I still have the older version of DPP so I will have to test and compare. Just curious, which Canon body are you are using? I'm not noticing the watercolor look with DPP but I still need to run more tests.

Oct 20, 2007 at 04:26 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #21 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Micky Bill wrote:
I can't seem to find where to download the latest DPP....

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=DownloadIndexAct

http://alpha02u.c-wss.com/inc/ApplServlet?SV=WWUCA900

Oct 20, 2007 at 04:28 PM

jgrimson
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p.1 #22 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I had to go to camera (30D) and then to download

Oct 20, 2007 at 04:43 PM

MSC
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p.1 #23 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

shirozina wrote:
The latest version of DPP introduced some default noise reduction which ruined the clarity. Easily seen if you flick through the RGB channels in Photoshop at 100% - the blue looks very watercolour like and softened now whereas it used to be nice and defined. I've never seen any sharpening that can't be turned off in C1, ACR or DPP btw. Color and tonal seperation in DPP are superior to all other RAW processors that I have ever used - the subtle gradients that you can get with DPP are the best reason to use it.

I don't see this in DPP, where is it said that there is a default NR? If you use the High Quality setting for display, it turns on the ability to use the NR settings on the NR tab...but the default is set to zero.

OT, the High Speed setting for display has a really poor rendering and never use that.

Oct 20, 2007 at 05:03 PM

Eyeball
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p.1 #24 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

Wow Tariq, I am really surprised with your comparison. With my 20D, I get exactly the opposite results and have found that I can recover shadows and highlights in ACR that I absolutely cannot in DPP - highlights in particular.

This could be because of differences in how ACR handles the 5d vs. the 20D but I suspect that part of it may be you just need to practice a little more with ACR. One thing that I have noticed is that each Raw converter has its quirks and trying to use one like you've used another will not give you optimal results.

One thing that can be a little confusing with ACR is the naming conventions for the basic controls. It can kind of throw you off. Here is the way I have come to interpret/use the sliders:

- Exposure = Highlight Clipping
- Recovery = Highlight protection extreme

- Fill light = Low-midtone adjustment
- Blacks = Shadow Clipping
- Brightness = Midtone adjustment ( but when used with Exposure almost becomes High-midtone adjustment)

In v4.2 I almost never use Recovery now.

If you could make the shipping container raw file available, I would like to take a crack at it in ACR. If I get a little more time, I'll post some examples of where I have recovered highlights that were unrecoverable in DPP.

Regarding color accuracy, I would have to say that that is probably ACR's greatest weakness. Even when using the Fors and Gardner calibration scripts, it seems like the calibration protocol is just too limited to get it perfect (I think I ended up with an average Delta-E of about 2.0 the last time I tried the Gardner script).

That said, if perfect color matching is not an absolute requirement I think the ease of use of ACR and its strengths in other areas make up for the weakness. I mean I see people using Picture Styles on the new Canons and in my opinion those can jack around the colors worse than what ACR will do.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be an ACR evangelist. Everybody has their preferences for a raw converter and that's fine. I just think it takes a while working with a raw converter to understand its "logic" and to properly evaluate it.

Oct 21, 2007 at 03:24 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #25 · ACR vs Canon DPP, What a difference

I will make the RAW file available Sunday hopefully. I have been using ACR since it came out through all its versions and I'm very familiar with it, as well as LightRoom but I will see what more tweaking could do. Remember that I used a fairly large amount of Recovery on the ACR file just to get any detail in the container and did nothing in DPP also. When I first opened the file in ACR I was shocked at the lack of Highlight detail I saw, particularly since I expose to the left of the histogram and not the right so I really protect my highlights. Given that you had the opposite experience with a 20d, it may be down to a camera specific issue with ACR.

Oct 21, 2007 at 03:48 AM


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