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Rubber Soul Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #1 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW I hear a lot of people raving about how much nicer the colors look with 14-bit RAW. The tone granulation is better, shadows are better, etc. But isn't it a fact that, on a computer screen, it's impossible to visually differentiate between a 14-bit RAW from a measly 8-bit JPEG? I thought that the only true advantage of 14-bit RAW files was greater leeway in post-processing. Pulling up shadows in photoshop, digitally adjusting exposure, recovering highlights, etc. But take a 14-bit RAW and a 12-bit RAW, and convert them identically to JPEG format via DPP. There would be no difference whatsoever between the final results... correct? Or not? Aug 08, 2007 at 11:36 PM

morganb4 Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #2 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW Not quite, I understand what your saying though and to an extent, I agree especially about shadow tonality. I think the effect is more general though, the best analogy that I can draw is in the digital x-ray world (simple, greyscale!) the extra bit depth renders better egde contrast and helps makes the image generally clearer. Perhaps shadows are better because noise abberations from the mean may be less noticeable. Then again ai could be talking bollocks. Just my take. Aug 08, 2007 at 11:41 PM

rd4tile Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #3 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW Sort of like the difference between an 800 line 3 chip 2/3rd"CCD pro video cam and a 500 line fixed lens prosumer cam both recording to the same 450 line tape format. You shouldn't be able to see any difference when play back is off tape but you sure can. The difference in mkIII files is more dramatic in some shots then others however when compared to 12bit files. Aug 08, 2007 at 11:54 PM

morganb4 Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #4 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW rd4tile wrote: Sort of like the difference between an 800 line 3 chip 2/3rd"CCD pro video cam and a 500 line fixed lens prosumer cam both recording to the same 450 line tape format. You shouldn't be able to see any difference when play back is off tape but you sure can. The difference in mkIII files is more dramatic in some shots then others however when compared to 12bit files. Yeah exactly, its actually to do with the MTF of the electronics, high frequency signals are attenuated less so the image is clearer and cleaner rendering overall better contrast. Thats the techy answer...:-) Aug 09, 2007 at 12:07 AM

sapro Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #5 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. So yes, you will see the difference on monitor. Aug 09, 2007 at 12:08 AM

morganb4 Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #6 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW Good answer sapro wrote: I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. So yes, you will see the difference on monitor. Aug 09, 2007 at 12:42 AM

Pixel Perfect Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #7 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW You can definitely see the difference between an 8 bit jpg and 16 bit tiff if you examine things like pale skies or any pastel (subtle) tonal transitions on the monitor. The 8 bit will show more banding and posterization. 8 bit per channel is not that great. people tend to think oh it's 16.7 Million colours, which sounds like more than enough (humans can only discern about 5-6 million), but really it's better to think of it as 256 tonal transitions per channel and that's not enough for in many cases. Aug 09, 2007 at 05:04 AM

Rubber Soul Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #8 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW sapro wrote: I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. You are correct, of course. I tend to go braindead and type nonsensical things after 11pm. Aug 09, 2007 at 07:22 AM

DaDane Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW Rubber Soul wrote: sapro wrote: I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. You are correct, of course. I tend to go braindead and type nonsensical things after 11pm. No! I really don't think he is. 12 or 14 bit is per channel (i.e. colorchannel, - that is the same multiplication with a factor of 3). To be honest it was harder for Google to find this on the web than though. My best link is this By the way - 12 bit would give just 4096 colours to choose from (just like the old Amiga had). 24 bit have 16 million colors, 36 bit have 68 billion colors and the new 42 bit have more than 4 trillion colors. Aug 09, 2007 at 10:05 AM

Pixel Perfect Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #10 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW DaDane wrote: Rubber Soul wrote: sapro wrote: I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. You are correct, of course. I tend to go braindead and type nonsensical things after 11pm. No! I really don't think he is. 12 or 14 bit is per channel (i.e. colorchannel, - that is the same multiplication with a factor of 3). To be honest it was harder for Google to find this on the web than though. My best link is this By the way - 12 bit would give just 4096 colours to choose from (just like the old Amiga had). 24 bit have 16 million colors, 36 bit have 68 billion colors and the new 42 bit have more than 4 trillion colors. 8 bit jpg is taken to mean 24 bit colour usually. The 8 bits in this case means the bit depth, which is 8 bits per channel. If you include an alpha blending channel you can have 32 bit jpgs.The gif format was a true 8 bit format having a total palette of 256 colours to choose from and that's why gif images usually suck jpg2000 and tiff supports 16 bit per channel colour, but we usually describe them as 16 bit images, understanding this a bit depth of 16. Just look at the RAW converter you use and see how it describes the jpg option. It asks you whether you want to save in 8 bit format. Aug 09, 2007 at 10:24 AM

Paul Gardner Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #11 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW I went to a Mamiya ZD demo this morning. WOW! Canon's 1DS III better be good. Test image I shot at rear of store. Subject is an old pallet. http://www.pbase.com/sjprg/image/83631303 Aug 09, 2007 at 10:13 PM

Photon Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #12 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW sapro wrote: I guess you are a bit confused. 8-bit JPEG means 8-bit per color channel, so 24 bits total for each pixel. While 14-bit or 12-bit RAW really means 14-bit or 12-bit per pixel, then interpelation and upscaling are used to produce a 24-bit JPEG. So yes, you will see the difference on monitor. 14 bit RAW records 14 bits per pixel, but the Bayer demosaicing process interpolates the three color channels for each pixel, so the camera really is recording much more information than if you do in-camera jpegs, 8 bits per channel. Yes, unless you have one of the cutting edge monitors that can display 16 bpc signals directly, you won't see a difference if you don't do modifications to the raw file. However, as soon as you apply curves, ACR recovery, probably even WB adjustments, the greater bit depth will result in a smoother and more detailed final product. Good inkjet printers can work from 16 bpc files, and it can make a difference. Aug 10, 2007 at 03:09 AM

SoundHound Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #13 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW As I understand it the original, RAW, image file is linear 14 bits. This file is converted to a non linear file thru the RAW conversion software to a scaled or compressed file which is viewable as an image (not just "RAW" data). Depending on the RAW conversion settings the 14 bit file has a dynamic range advantage over the 12 bit file. This is because tones that fall outside of the 8/12 bit range can be "pulled up" (with controls such as "blacks," "contrast," curves") in the converter and displayed as a TIFF, PSD (or other lossless) file. Aug 10, 2007 at 05:14 PM

GregM5 Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #14 · 14-bit RAW vs 12-bit RAW When a camera is shooting in 12 bits of color the three channels contain 4096 shades of each primary color. 4096 red, 4096 blue, and 4096 green, or 4096 x 4096 x 4096 = 4,398,046,511,104 colors. 14 bits jumps to 16,384 shades of color for each primary color channel. The number of possible colors is now - 16,384 x 16,384, x 16,384 = 281,474,976,710,656. FYI, 16 bits jumps to 65,536 shades of color for each primary color channel. So will you see it on your monitor - not necessarily. You will notice the extra colors in Photoshop (or your raw converter) when you want to adjust colors. If you look at a histogram before and after adjusting an 8 bit image you will often see gaps after the image has been altered, which translates to banding. With a 12 or 14 bit image (or raw file) you will have less gaps in the histogram (or no gaps). So, the higher the bit depth, the better. The downside is that the files will be larger, but with hard drives and ram getting cheaper, that shouldn't be an issue. Hope this helps... Oct 12, 2008 at 04:42 PM

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