I just picked up a mint condition 1Ds that has about 4000 shutter clicks on it. It had about 3000 when I bought it; last weekend was a big shooting weekend. Anyway, since that time I've been going through some of my photos and have noticed that there is a slightly overexposed line (relative to other areas in the pics) running up the left side of some of my pictures. I believe this is shutter bounce, but that's based almost entirely on Internet (paranoia) stories.
The phenomenon is most evident when all of the following conditions are met:
1. portrait orientation
2. shutter speed equal to or faster than 1/500
3. lens wide(r) open
The following crops illustrate what I'm seeing. The first set of pics (pine needles) were taken with a Zeiss 28/2.8, so no aperture information is available in the EXIF data (I think it was wide open), but notice the shutter speeds. The second set of pics (road) are with the 17-40. Notice the aperture and shutter speeds in the EXIF data.
UPDATED the last two photos. They are now of my curtain with plenty of light shining through to achieve high shutter speeds. Getting crazier by the minute!
Do I, or will I soon, need a new shutter? Or is this normal?
There was a thread about this just a week or 2 ago when I 1st heard the term. My 1ds2 shows the same problem, interesting that it's got about the same # of clicks. I'm just holding off for a couple of weeks sending it in when I can do without it. In the mean time I'll switch to my 5D if I need high speeds. When I called Canon they could/would not tell me if I would need a new shutter of just an adjustment.
My experience mirrors what others have gone through, so man alive, do I need a new shutter?? I guess I have to go to Canon next week. Is there any chance that the shutter just needs to be worked in more? Or will it get progressively worse until the whole camera explodes?
Steve, I don't know but you will probably be sending yours in before me, so please let me know.
As a dedicated landscape guy I use slow shutter speeds and small apertures for most of my stuff, but I do have a few images taken wide enough that the shutter speeds were high enough to check the phenomenon out. I went back over some old raw files 1 and 2 years ago. I saw it on some files from last December, but nothing earlier, so for my camera at least this problem developed, ie it wasn't there from day 1. I don't have any controlled tests to see if it's been getting worse though.
Mike, at which shutter speed do you start to notice the bouncing? For me it's consistently at 1/500 and faster. Also, what was the adjustment Canon told you about? That sounds much cheaper than a full on shutter replacement. Lifting the mirror on my camera doesn't reveal any bends or scratches/scuffs on the shutter that might lead one to believe that the shutter is moving in a way that it shouldn't. Everything looks just fine, so maybe an adjustment is all that's needed.
I'm going to have the guys at Canon just check it out and tell me if this is normal behaviour, which I suspect it isn't. A shutter replacement in Korea is going to cost me about $400 or more according to the few reports I've read on local photography sites, and I'm also leery of asking Canon to muck about with an otherwise perfect, low actuation camera.
Steve, I've not done any specific testing to see when it starts showing up. I will be tonight though as I want to make sure I switch bodies if that's likely while I'm using it over the long weekend.
Canon wouldn't say anything, in fact I got the impression I was just talking to an administrator whose job was to log the problems and give instructions or where and how to send in the items. Mine will be going to New Jersey, and I just have to decide if it will go next week, or if I want to hold onto it until after July 4th week. If I thought they'd get it back to my in time I'd send it next week.
Mike, I appreciate the time you've spent replying to my questions and concerns. Please keep me (this thread) posted as to what you find out tonight if you end up doing some specific testing.
I won't be able to take the body in to Canon until this coming Wednesday at the earliest, but I should be back with more info before next weekend.
No camera should have this effect with areas more brightly exposed by the camera than other areas. It is a defect. No camera shutter needs to be run in either - they're supposed to work from image #1. Steven, I'm afraid your camera needs a service at least and a new shutter at worst.
I had never heard of shutter bounce, and I still wonder if it really a shutter bouncing or the trailing shutter curtain binding at the beginning of its travel. (for readers who don't know, there are two moving shutter curtains with a variable size of gap / delay between them to produce any effective shutter speed as the gap passes across the sensor and exposes it to light)
Edited by Alan321 on May 25, 2007 at 01:36 AM GMT (Reason: fixed typos)
StevenPA wrote:
Mike, I appreciate the time you've spent replying to my questions and concerns. Please keep me (this thread) posted as to what you find out tonight if you end up doing some specific testing.
I won't be able to take the body in to Canon until this coming Wednesday at the earliest, but I should be back with more info before next weekend.
I wouldn't rely on it until it's been checked.
First sign of a failing shutter, or one that needs an overhaul IMHO
Alan and David, thanks for the info. I am gearing up for the worst (a costly shutter replacement) which really stinks because I bought this camera specifically because of its low actuations.
Alan, as I understand it, the individual curtains travel at a constant speed for any given shutter speed. It's the delay between them that creates the shutter speeds we see in the EXIF data. If so, why does this problem only occur at speeds faster than 1/500?
I believe the problem is getting worse. The pics I've linked to above are from before a weekend of heavy shooting, sometimes filling the buffer (10 shots) but always around 1/200. After that heavy usage (400 pics or so), the shutter seems to be acting up more and more. Of course I'm looking for it and trying to create it.
I'm sure you know this, bit it is very easy to 'fool' the 1-series cameras into giving low actuation counts - was yours verified by Canon? Only they *really* know
A new shutter is an expense, but it's not horribly bad
David, I trust the seller (FM member) and the body is in such immaculate shape (the grip still feels like new) that I would have a hard time believing there were more shutter clicks on it than stated when I bought it (3,000).
Unfortunately Canon Korea does not give out shutter counts anymore. It was a perk that came to be abused. However, I will ask them, and given the situation they will probably tell me.
StevenPA wrote:
David, I trust the seller (FM member) and the body is in such immaculate shape (the grip still feels like new) that I would have a hard time believing there were more shutter clicks on it than stated when I bought it (3,000).
Unfortunately Canon Korea does not give out shutter counts anymore. It was a perk that came to be abused. However, I will ask them, and given the situation they will probably tell me.
If it's going back to Canon anyway I'd certainly expect them to tell you (you will be paying them after all).
A professional camera failing after 4000 exposures, even outside warranty should incur some sort of discount for the repair, no?
Canon Korea is kind of funny that way. There are hefty import taxes here that have created quite a thriving grey market, and Canon Korea charges through the roof for repairs to goods that they didn't import, i.e. grey market. I still come out ahead of the game because I saved several hundred dollars on the original purchase by going with grey market over Canon Korea, but I was hoping to keep that money in my pocket, eh? Maybe if I look really sad or something...
I have no experience of this, but I would take a very dim view if a company like Canon charged substantailly different amounts for exactly the same work in different parts of the world. That would surprise me and certainly be a cause for complaint
If it's the case it might be better (and cheaper) to ship it to another Canon service centre
Of course you're correct, David, but it's also a fact of life in Korea. Nonetheless, it gives me something to think about and discuss with them, and I'm glad you've raised this point. I'd rather not send the camera out of the country though if it's only going to save me a hundred bucks. I'd rather have the camera to shoot with. What does a shutter replacement go for in the UK/US, by the way?
StevenPA wrote:
Alan, as I understand it, the individual curtains travel at a constant speed for any given shutter speed. It's the delay between them that creates the shutter speeds we see in the EXIF data. If so, why does this problem only occur at speeds faster than 1/500?
Yep. The problem may just seem to be worse at faster shutter speeds or more generally at lower exposures because at slower speeds everything gets a relatively greater exposure to light and the extra caused by the sticking (or bouncing) shutter is not as noticeable.
On another point, I recently had my 1D2 serviced and Canon did not record the shutter count. I asked for it later on but was told that I should have asked when I submitted the camera and that they do not record that data for privacy reasons.
The camera data can be altered by an unscrupulous user and just exactly the same way by an unaware user or by a user who simply has no choice. It involves transferring data to the camera from another camera via a memory card. I have seen nothing to indicate that the data Canon finds in the camera is any different from what we can find buried in the EXIF data, so maybe they stopped reporting it because they are also now aware that it cannot be trusted.
Yes it is "shutter bounce", and the only solution, I have been told is a new shutter. It happened to my 1DsMkII after only 14,000 clicks, but was out of guarantee, and cost here in Spain, 600euros. It only happens on my camera above 1,500th, and I haven't had it changed yet. Still, not very good for a camera that costs and arm and leg.
Is there any chance that the shutter just needs to be worked in more? Or will it get progressively worse until the whole camera explodes?