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Archive 2007 · APS-C compact digicam?

Rubber Soul
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p.1 #1 · APS-C compact digicam?

Hypothetical question:

Imagine a APS-C sized sensor with a 1.6x crop factor. Put it inside the smallest and most spartan body possible --- no viewfinder, no mirror, no hotshoe, no grip, nothing. The built-in lens would be a pancake sized 30mm f/2.8 lens similar to the Pentax Limited DA lenses --- except it would be even smaller, because it won't have to account for a mirror in the camera body.

Would it be possible for such a camera to be small enough to fit inside a pocket? Larger than a Canon IXUS camera, but smaller than an A-series camera?

May 19, 2007 at 02:07 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · APS-C compact digicam?

Do you mean something like this ?

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Sigma/sigma_dp1.asp

May 19, 2007 at 02:39 PM

EOS20
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p.1 #3 · APS-C compact digicam?

There is, Well there will be a camera like that. Its Called the Sigma DP1! All we need to do now is sit back and wait for Sigma to start selling them. Still no word when that will be though.

Heres the offical site:

www.sigma-dp1.com

Also do a google search to find out more as there are plenty of sites with info about the camera.

May 19, 2007 at 06:00 PM

Rob Riley
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p.1 #4 · APS-C compact digicam?

such a concept is greatly dependent on the short register of the lens
film lenses havnt gone beyond around 28mm
but there are cine lenses that approach 12mm

so broadly it is possible given a narrow operating range for a lens

May 19, 2007 at 06:28 PM

Rubber Soul
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p.1 #5 · APS-C compact digicam?

EOS20 wrote:
There is, Well there will be a camera like that. Its Called the Sigma DP1! All we need to do now is sit back and wait for Sigma to start selling them. Still no word when that will be though.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the DP1 though. Faveon sensors have their advantages, but their high ISO noise levels still aren't up to par with traditional Sony/Canon APS-C sensors. And the slow 16.6mm (x1.5) f4 lens doesn't make things any more exciting.

I'm sure the DP1 will produce great dSLR-quality images, but I'm not so sure it'll do well indoors, or at night. And using a built-in flash would defeat the purpose of having such a nice camera.

What I would've liked to see is a compact camera with a more traditional 35mm (x1.5) f/2 pancake lens paired together with the 6 MP sensor of the D40. Slap an image stabilizer in there, and that would make for the perfect pocket camera. I can imagine such a thing being smaller than an Canon A-series digicam.

May 20, 2007 at 05:48 AM

Rob Riley
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p.1 #6 · APS-C compact digicam?

there were viewfinder/rangefinder cameras back in the film era that did well, but became redundant when SLRs began to take over. My personal favourite is the Minolta HiMatic series.

A compact camera with a quality image production may seem like a great idea for some of us here, in particular as a carry camera, /backup for a dSLR, travel camera. But the loss of functionality such as zoom lens and all the rest of it I suspect would not be endeared in the marketplace.

And what manufacturer might take this on, I cant see Canon doing anything risky right now, and Nikon never seem to do that. Olympus seem a tad busy with 3 bodies this year. The 'soon to be forgotten' Pentax wont be doing it. That leaves Sony, well perhaps, ....or Panasonic, hmm more likely, ...but Sigma, well the DP1 was a surprise wasn't it.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

May 20, 2007 at 06:27 AM

cyberstudio
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p.1 #7 · APS-C compact digicam?

From your pic, the HiMatic base length is really short...

May 20, 2007 at 08:09 AM

Rob Riley
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p.1 #8 · APS-C compact digicam?

Dimensions 113 x 73 x 54mm ; 360 grams
or 4 1/2" x 2 7/8" x 2 1/8"; 12.7 oz

May 20, 2007 at 08:59 AM

Jon Buder
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p.1 #9 · APS-C compact digicam?

Sony did buy K-M, and possibly the plans for the Hexar (AF), but Sony has seemed to be a 'gadget' company in the past. I can't really see them making anything targeted at photographers who want a good, *simple* digital compact to supplement their SLR kits...

Could be wrong though, and I'd love to be wrong in this case since I would definitely buy a digital Hexar if it was released and had no major flaws (a zoom lens or lack of accesory shoe being a major flaw).

The DP1 sounds good, but the sensor seems a little sketchy from the tests of the SD14 and I heard that the price might be around $1k, which is much too high for what it is, IMO.

I think our best chance other than the DP1 is going to be the replacement to the Ricoh GR-D, if it ever happens.

May 20, 2007 at 07:20 PM

jackcpsu
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p.1 #10 · APS-C compact digicam?

There are a lot of popular high end compact AF rangefinder such as CONTAX T2 and T3 at the end of the film era. T2 is one of my favorate and if there is a digital equivalent of T2, (large and birght viewfinder, fast AF, fast high quality prime lens, DSLR image quality and high ISO performance in a titanium compact body), I will buy it.

May 24, 2007 at 05:19 AM

RichardAlanFox
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p.1 #11 · APS-C compact digicam?

When film ended for me (July 2003) my constant companion was a Contax T2 and my frequent friend was a Contax G2.
My current constant companion is a Canon S70, I carry it in the orginal Contax T2 grey case fits like a glove.
In my opinion the S70 shooting RAW is a better solution than the Contax T2 with 400 color negative.

May 24, 2007 at 05:54 AM

marcwilson
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p.1 #12 · APS-C compact digicam?

Has anyone used the Ricoh Caplio GX100 yet...seems like an alternative to the gr-d albeit with a few extra gizmos and the electronic viewfinder.

Marc

May 24, 2007 at 03:52 PM

nikt
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p.1 #13 · APS-C compact digicam?

Yes, the GX100 is excellent. I'll have to see if I can post a pic or two in the next few days.

May 25, 2007 at 02:00 PM

emorphien
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p.1 #14 · APS-C compact digicam?

jackcpsu wrote:
There are a lot of popular high end compact AF rangefinder such as CONTAX T2 and T3 at the end of the film era. T2 is one of my favorate and if there is a digital equivalent of T2, (large and birght viewfinder, fast AF, fast high quality prime lens, DSLR image quality and high ISO performance in a titanium compact body), I will buy it.
That would be great. I'd even take something along the lines of the Contax G series with an SLR sized image sensor.

May 31, 2007 at 03:33 AM

Rob Riley
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p.1 #15 · APS-C compact digicam?

With the recent withdrawal of Epson's RD-1 from sale, much hope of a serious interchangeable lens camera would be dashed. Add to that, a manufacturers fears about such a compact taking sales away from their dSLR offering, which with a tidy market for accessories and lenses would be bound to bring more cash per unit. And that at the fascinating prices that RD-1 and M8 bring.

The best that can be hoped for then, is some seriously crippled little machine with an APS C or 4/3rds sensor with a fixed optic, and even that may be too much.

May 31, 2007 at 04:54 AM

nikt
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p.1 #16 · APS-C compact digicam?

Though I can't post the pics at this stage, I can tell you my thoughts on the Ricoh GX100.

My initial excitment and great hope of the camera was somewhat diminished after taking some photos and seeing the results. Operationally, the camera is fantastic. Hasn't got the locking mechanism for the mode dial like the GR but otherwise its an excellent camera. Fast operation, fast focus, good colours, good exposure. That 24mm wide lens is good and the camera just has so much potential.

So the problem? The 10 Megapixel chip and its accompanied processor. Even at the lowest ISO, the images seemed to have been dealt with heavy handed noise reduction. It just lacked the detail, clarity and sharpness that I've seen in previous Ricoh cameras.

Though I will do a few more shots and give it another go, because I actually want to believe its not true, I think Ricoh missed with this one big time. Canon with the A640 showed that you could still get good images from a 10 MP sensor, Ricoh has not done so in this case. But as I said, I will give it another go. This time we will print the photos and see the results.

May 31, 2007 at 01:19 PM

kgelner
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p.1 #17 · APS-C compact digicam?

Rubber Soul wrote:
I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the DP1 though. Faveon sensors have their advantages, but their high ISO noise levels still aren't up to par with traditional Sony/Canon APS-C sensors. And the slow 16.6mm (x1.5) f4 lens doesn't make things any more exciting.

Point 1) We are not talking about a DSLR. We are talking about a compact camera, where all other sensors are actually 10 times smaller than the DP-1 sensor. How is the performance of this sensor not going to overcome even the Fuji compacts?

Point 2) The higher ISO may be better than you think, there are some poor examples to be sure but also some excellent ones - and the new ACR 4.1 update appears to offer even better noise reduction for higher ISO images without loss of detail.

I'm sure the DP1 will produce great dSLR-quality images, but I'm not so sure it'll do well indoors, or at night. And using a built-in flash would defeat the purpose of having such a nice camera.

I think it will do pretty well, remember it's a pretty wide lens so even at slower shutter speeds you should get good results.

What I would've liked to see is a compact camera with a more traditional 35mm (x1.5) f/2 pancake lens paired together with the 6 MP sensor of the D40. Slap an image stabilizer in there, and that would make for the perfect pocket camera. I can imagine such a thing being smaller than an Canon A-series digicam.

You might imagine it smaller, but the physics say otherwise - the way sensors are, lenses can only be made so small. There's a reason why the DP-1 has an f/4 lens, it's not built to be a cheap camera so it's not a matter of cost savings. This would be just as true of a D40 6MP sensor.

May 31, 2007 at 10:15 PM

Rob Riley
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p.1 #18 · APS-C compact digicam?

indeed the cost of the sensor is likely to be a very big part of pricing
but this is similar position to the FF Canon 5D

Jun 01, 2007 at 06:07 AM

dcmiller
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p.1 #19 · APS-C compact digicam?

As far as noise, it seems the fuji digicams are the lowest.
Interesting that it looks like the DP-1 will be more expensive than a Canon xti with a kit lens. Sigma must ask themselves "will the dp1 really sell"
But I would like a quiet camera. Even though it's a small sensor, I'll probably pick up one of the fujis. I would pay twice the price for the Ricoh GX100, but it doesn't soung like the image quality warrants its cost.

Jun 01, 2007 at 12:35 PM

Lotusm50
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p.1 #20 · APS-C compact digicam?

Rob Riley wrote:
such a concept is greatly dependent on the short register of the lens
film lenses havnt gone beyond around 28mm
but there are cine lenses that approach 12mm

I don't think this is significant problem. They just have to design a different lens. Existing film and cine lenses may not be appropriate, so produce a new design that is appropriate to the application. It can be done. Case in point: The Sony R1 with an APS-c sensor has a very high performance lens whose rear element is only 2.1mm from the sensor assembly.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Rob Riley wrote:
Add to that, a manufacturers fears about such a compact taking sales away from their dSLR offering, which with a tidy market for accessories and lenses would be bound to bring more cash per unit.

I think this is an overblown concern. Such a compact could be MORE profitable for them. They are cheaper to build (no mirror box, prism, or interchangeable lens mount) and could sell for as much as a DSLR. Further, it is not a substitute for the DSLR. And those people who might buy such a camera instead of a DSLR are not the ones who are going to be buying a lot of accessories, lenses, etc. So you are not going to have those add-on sales from those customers anyway. Without real competition in this particular market niche, pricing power and lower costs combined with most buyers seeing as a supplement to their DSLR, most likely would lead to increased revenue and profits for the manufacturer.

Jun 01, 2007 at 01:25 PM

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