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Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

  
 
Jeff
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p.82 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:
Right now my posts are showing as having occured 2 hours earlier than the time it actually is on my computer.

Funny coincidence, huh?


That's because the 'Time Zone' set in your user profile is wrong. There was no 'Edited by' text that showed up in your post until 2 hours later. Your errant setting noted above would not have affected the forum's timestamps, except for appearing wrong on your computer.

Had you not publicly posted your inflammatory comment about my being 'over-zealous' and hopped up on caffeine (which I readily admit ), I never would have been compelled to even respond. Since, after I got your PM, I checked the thread and you had not edited it (and my 'Edited by' remained), there is only one logical answer. Sorry to be so presumptuous.

I'm also sorry if you took offense to my editing your post, and making a public comment. Comments like that are as much a reminder for everyone as they are a reminder to you.

Jeff
FM.com Moderator

PS: I believe that [ img ] tags are usually used for embedded images, not externally linked ones.



Edited by Jeff on Sep 19, 2006 at 10:13 AM GMT



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:04 PM
hallbert
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p.82 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Let's move on with the reason for this topic and keep the bickering private!!


Sep 19, 2006 at 12:12 PM
ISO1600
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p.82 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


yeah, more rumor mill.


Sep 19, 2006 at 12:18 PM
DaveMart
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p.82 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


40D coming and it may be a 1.3!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=20097443
Not that I believe it for a second, but I thought it might help to move things on! ;-)
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:21 PM
Tentacle
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p.82 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


DaveMart wrote:
40D coming and it may be a 1.3!
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=20097443
Not that I believe it for a second, but I thought it might help to move things on! ;-)
Regards,
DaveMart


We've touched on this before. APS-H is the economic sweet spot for sensor size, right before you incur the penalty of having to go to the yield-crushing field stitching. (Then again, it has also been pointed out that Canon is in a position to increase the exposure area of their steppers/scanners.) A 40D with APS-H would also move users towards FF lenses, which meshes with Canon's alledged commitment to FF. And, finally, it would enable better SNR and higher DR, compared to 10 mpixel from APS-C.

But, this maybe a case of "De wens is de vader van de gedachte". This translates (litteraly) from Dutch into "The wish is the father of the thought", or in other words, the speculations stem from the desires.



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:45 PM
danmitchell
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p.82 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


I have no idea whether Canon would go to 1.3 crop sensors on the camera between the 400D and 5D models. I can see some downsides to this (three sensor sizes! try explaining that to the marketplace), but one upside would be better product differentiation between this model and the 400D. But on the inevitable other hand, it would also decrease the differentiation as compared to the full-frame cameras like the 5D.

Count me as being skeptical at this point. Not that my skepticism counts for anything... ;-)

Dan

Edited by danmitchell on Sep 19, 2006 at 09:53 AM GMT



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:51 PM
jwil
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p.82 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Jeff wrote:
That's because the 'Time Zone' set in your user profile is wrong. There was no 'Edited by' text that showed up in your post until 2 hours later. Your errant setting noted above would not have affected the forum's timestamps, except for appearing wrong on your computer.

Had you not publicly posted your inflammatory comment about my being 'over-zealous' and hopped up on caffeine (which I readily admit ), I never would have been compelled to even respond. Since, after I got your PM, I checked the thread and you had not edited it (and my 'Edited by' remained), there
...Show more

Since you are bound and determined to not admit your fault in over reacting or overmoderating, I will part company with this forum after these observations:

1. I posted the raw URL to the relevant pictures WITHOUT [ img ] tags assuming they would be saved as a simple hotlink in the post, apparently the forum software automatically adds those tags if it sees (I'm assuming) a .jpg extension.

2. If you had edited my post I did not see the edit as I think we were editing the post at the same time. Believe what you want but I do not lie and I am greatly offended by the accusation.

3. I PM'd you immediately after I edited my post. The time stamp of my original post (NOT THE EDIT) is Sep 16, 2006 at 02:33 PM the timestamp of my PM message is Sep 16, 2006 at 02:51 PM. Tell me, where is this mythical 2 hours you are referring to?

4. If I had PM'd you why didn't you PM in return? Why act like as though you are completely undeserving of your position as moderator in front of the entire forum by unloading on me in some flame fest? If my "inflammatory comment" had so incensed you then you perhaps should have taken a moment to fully investigate the situation (check your PM, check some timestamps, have some more coffee and take a breather...whatever) and then take the high road and PM me to clear it up. Instead you chose to act like a complete fool.

Ban me, delete me, delete all my posts if you'd like. That would be fitting irony to your accusation of revisionist history. I'll be contacting Fred Miranda to express my sincerest disappointment over this situation and that I am truely offended by your accusation "jeff". I will not be returning to these forums for any reason, nor will I purchase any software from Fred Miranda again.

I can only hope that in the future the rest of the moderating staff here excercises a bit more restraint and maturity.

To everyone else in this thread I would like to extend my sincerest apologies for this off topic diversion. I have had a great deal of pleasure discussing the business aspects of Canon and their product strategies with you all. I have learned a great deal and I hope I have been able to share a couple things with you all.

However, I have enough self respect to not tolerate being accused of lying, an act which I find deeply offensive, and I feel there is no reason to continue utilizing this site. There are many others on the web, where the staff doesn't have such a poor reputation.

Kindest regards to all,
Jeff Wilson


[Moderator EDIT:]

PM sent.

"'jwil':

Sorry you feel compelled to leave the forums because of this, it's unfortunate, and I do take a certain amount of responsibility for it, but it is by no means entirely my 'fault'. It's your choice.

I acknowledge that there is one single way that this could have happened, forum quirk-wise (it is if you had edited the post in the literally two seconds it took me to edit it). But, it doesn't explain why you later chose to consciously erase my 'Edited by' timestamp. Based upon finding your inflammatory post shot my way (after I'd chosen to ignore your intentional edit
...Show more

Edited by Jeff on Sep 19, 2006 at 12:57 PM GMT (Reason: Added EDIT)



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:51 PM
Tentacle
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p.82 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Let's see what happens if I put in a URL with .jpg 'sans' tags. Will it turn into a clickable link? Or will it show up as image? Here goes...

http://www.strikerz.net/~geert/portfolio/IOFestival2k6/CRW_3951_600.jpg



Sep 19, 2006 at 12:55 PM
DaveMart
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p.82 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Tentacle wrote:
We've touched on this before. APS-H is the economic sweet spot for sensor size, right before you incur the penalty of having to go to the yield-crushing field stitching. (Then again, it has also been pointed out that Canon is in a position to increase the exposure area of their steppers/scanners.) A 40D with APS-H would also move users towards FF lenses, which meshes with Canon's alledged commitment to FF. And, finally, it would enable better SNR and higher DR, compared to 10 mpixel from APS-C.

But, this maybe a case of "De wens is de vader van de gedachte". This
...Show more

I've always been keen on the 1.3 - and it looks as though Leica is now, too!
Most of the more credible rumours though seem confident that the 40D remains at 1.6.
The reason for that seems to me to be that Canon genuinely think that they have managed to move things on in both DR and noise whilst getting in the 10MP needed in this generation of sensors to be competitive, IOW they don't think they need it yet.
We won't be able to form a judgement on that yet though, as the 400D uses DIGIC!! and does not reallly demonstrate where Canon are in these respects - the sensors in future could be totally different.
Just the same, I think that we will hear what we are getting for Photokina within the next few days, as they normally leak before Photokina.
This particlular 'leak' did amuse me though - the thought of Canon altering their release of information because he has bought 70 copiers!
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:00 PM
Tentacle
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p.82 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


And I apologise for polluting this interesting thread My reason for doing so is that certain forum quirks like auto-embedding, no edit-locks and removable time-stamps result, eventually, in someone leaving this forum. A source of great marchitectural insight exits stage left. I think that's a bad thing.


Sep 19, 2006 at 01:03 PM
DaveMart
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p.82 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


jwil wrote:
Since you are bound and determined to not admit your fault in over reacting or overmoderating, I will part company with this forum after these observations:

1. I posted the raw URL to the relevant pictures WITHOUT [ img ] tags assuming they would be saved as a simple hotlink in the post, apparently the forum software automatically adds those tags if it sees (I'm assuming) a .jpg extension.

2. If you had edited my post I did not see the edit as I think we were editing the post at the same time. Believe what you want but I do not
...Show more
Surely the thing to do is to first contact Fred to express your concerns, as ultimately the whole issue is up to him?
I'd just like to point out that AFAIK forum moderators are in no sense members of staff of the site.
If I were unhappy the action I would take would be to delete this current post and contact Fred directly to outline my concerns, as all this somewhat leaves Fred with no chance of sorting things out.
It is a real pity that things have reached this pitch, and it would be a shame if everyone is left with no way of reconciliation.
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:08 PM
Jeff
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p.82 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


'jwil'-

I didn't accuse you of lying, I said you used a 'manipulated version' of reality, referring to your alteration of the apparent sequence of things, which you did when went back and erased the timestamps of the edits. I chose to ignore that fact until I (today) discovered your inflammatory comments shot my way. I acknowledge that I should have ignored them.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, and if you choose to leave the forums, that would be a shame, but it is your choice. I often leave public posts in regard to copyright violations (i.e. you were not being 'singled out'), though rarely do I have issues like this as a result.

Jeff
FM.com Moderator

PS: The FM.com forum code only adds [ frame ] tags to my knowledge, it does not automatically add [ img ] tags.

DaveMart wrote:
I'd just like to point out that AFAIK forum moderators are in no sense members of staff of the site.


If by that you mean we are not paid, you would indeed be correct.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:09 PM
Tentacle
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p.82 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Jeff wrote:
PS: The FM.com forum code only adds [ frame ] tags to my knowledge, it does not automatically add [ img ] tags.


On the previous page I tested it. A full url ending with a .jpg file extention without any tags WILL be embedded, rather than become a clickable URL.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:13 PM
timbop
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p.82 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


It is an interesting idea, but I really don't think that they want to orphan EF-S after coming out with the 17-55IS 6 months ago. Even though they will sell more 400D's than the rest of their line combined, it just doesn't seem likely that the very expensive EF-S lenses can only fit 1 (new) camera body. There are those of use with existing crop bodies that might purchase such glass, but it seems like the resale market would be hurt badly by such a move.

Personally, I think we are really barking up the wrong tree and if there is anything announced it will not be a 30D replacement. It could be a new APS-H a'la 3D/7D rumors, but I don't think it will be the 30D replacement. Maybe that's what "new line" means? Or, they have some great new TV's forthcoming.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:16 PM
DaveMart
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p.82 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Jeff wrote:
'jwil'-

I didn't accuse you of lying, I said you used a 'manipulated version' of reality, referring to your alteration of the apparent sequence of things, which you did when went back and erased the timestamps of the edits. I chose to ignore that fact until I (today) discovered your inflammatory comments shot my way. I acknowledge that I should have ignored them.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do, and if you choose to leave the forums, that would be a shame, but it is your choice. I often leave public posts in regard to copyright violations (i.e. you were
...Show more

I did indeed mean that the efforts they put in are voluntary, to try to keep things running smoothly. It is not always easy and discords can arise.
Again, I would suggest that all relevant posts be deleted, and then perhaps a way forward can be found, by PM rather than posted here.
Hope it all blows over!
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:22 PM
DaveMart
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p.82 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


timbop wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but I really don't think that they want to orphan EF-S after coming out with the 17-55IS 6 months ago. Even though they will sell more 400D's than the rest of their line combined, it just doesn't seem likely that the very expensive EF-S lenses can only fit 1 (new) camera body. There are those of use with existing crop bodies that might purchase such glass, but it seems like the resale market would be hurt badly by such a move.

Personally, I think we are really barking up the wrong tree and if there is
...Show more

When I first posted the link to that, I was thinking about cameras so was focussing on maybe a new name inn the camera division.
That doesn't really fit the bill though, and the preview of their new SED based TV in association with Toshiba seems the likeliest guess to me - it is about the right time.
Regards,
DaveMart



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:25 PM
Tentacle
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p.82 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


timbop wrote:
It is an interesting idea, but I really don't think that they want to orphan EF-S after coming out with the 17-55IS 6 months ago. Even though they will sell more 400D's than the rest of their line combined, it just doesn't seem likely that the very expensive EF-S lenses can only fit 1 (new) camera body. There are those of use with existing crop bodies that might purchase such glass, but it seems like the resale market would be hurt badly by such a move.[...]


How many EF-s lenses are there? Answer: 6. Compare that to the number of EF lenses. I haven't done a very accurate count, but I think the number is at or above 50. Canon will be able to take a hit from reduced EF-S 17-55IS sales without much financial pain, so I think your argument is a bit of a non-issue.

Even if you have EF-S glass and you move to bigger-than-APS-C, then there is a very big crowd of 300/350/400/20/30D users out there you can sell second hand to. Remeber your own words about the 400D selling more of the rest combined?



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:28 PM
timbop
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p.82 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


DaveMart wrote:
When I first posted the link to that, I was thinking about cameras so was focussing on maybe a new name inn the camera division.
That doesn't really fit the bill though, and the preview of their new SED based TV in association with Toshiba seems the likeliest guess to me - it is about the right time.
Regards,
DaveMart


Yep, I think you are on the money with "new brand" not being a camera. sadly.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:30 PM
timbop
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p.82 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread


Tentacle wrote:
How many EF-s lenses are there? Answer: 6. Compare that to the number of EF lenses. I haven't done a very accurate count, but I think the number is at or above 50. Canon will be able to take a hit from reduced EF-S 17-55IS sales without much financial pain, so I think your argument is a bit of a non-issue.

Even if you have EF-S glass and you move to bigger-than-APS-C, then there is a very big crowd of 300/350/400/20/30D users out there you can sell second hand to. Remeber your own words about the 400D selling more of the
...Show more


Yes, no doubt that will happen. But, by replacing the 30D with a new APS-H camera now they effectivly cripple 2 newly developed products - the 30D and 17-55 (which is a great piece of glass). A vast majority of the 400D's will be bought by folks who aren't going to spend 1.5x the money on a single lens as they did for the camera body. Absolutely there are pros and serious amateurs like Dan who absolutely love their 400D and are happy to buy the $1200 glass to go with it - but they are in the minority of d-reb buyers.

Canon will replace the 30D, and some day in the future the mid range canon will be full frame. I just don't that is going to happen in 2006.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:39 PM
Mark Shaxted
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p.82 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread



How many EF-s lenses are there? Answer: 6. Compare that to the number of EF lenses. I haven't done a very accurate count, but I think the number is at or above 50. Canon will be able to take a hit from reduced EF-S 17-55IS sales without much financial pain, so I think your argument is a bit of a non-issue.

Even if you have EF-S glass and you move to bigger-than-APS-C, then there is a very big crowd of 300/350/400/20/30D users out there you can sell second hand to. Remeber your own words about the 400D selling more of the rest
...Show more

And how many users that own EF-S lenses are there? An awful lot. By moving the next camera up from a 400D to an APS-H sensor you basically give them no upgrade path without a significant financial penalty. Unhappy customers cease to be customers.

There's no chance at all that the xxD series will be anything other than a APS-C sensor, other than in a fertile mind!

The new brand thing is probably a high end printer range or a camcorder range.



Sep 19, 2006 at 01:44 PM
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