'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 3 … 81 82 83 84 end

Archive 2006 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

JRMDC
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #1 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

I must heartily disagree, with respect.

jph1 wrote:
Canon probably is ahead of their product launch roadmap in terms of development and staging. If they move too fast, it may force the type of cut-throat competition that we saw in personal computer products. They don’t wan’t that. We (consumers) do.

It seems to me like that competition is here at the low end, with Sony Alpha, Pentax, etc. etc. Furthermore, I don't see how canon can slow that competition by withholding products. If anything, they can avoid competition primarily by coming out with new products for which others don't have comparable offerings. When technology is advancing, moving fast is how one avoids the cut-throat.

Products like the Pentax K10D and the new Sigma, help stimulate the development curve of the industry as a whole. Canon probably sees these products as no threat even though they may lose customers. The loss in customers may be offset by the number of people that decided to get a 5D, but wanted to wait incase something new came out at Photokina.

I don't see how Canon's sales of 5Ds would be affected by competition at the lower end. The people getting a 5D are not offsetting other people, in a different level of the market, who leave canon for competitors. It happens at the same time, but the loss of customers is still a loss. It sounds like you are arguing that Pentax/Sigma expand the DSLR market, which leads to new customers for Canon in the full frame range. I don't buy that.

I would bet Canon’s next product is ready for production. I wouldn’t expect to see it until we see a fall off in sales of their current offerings.

They have not done so in the past. As far as I can tell, the digital rebel, XT, 20D, etc, were all selling quite well when replaced. I would expect Canon to bring out future new products on a more frequent basis. It is important that they stay close to the lead edge.

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:15 PM

jamesf99
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #2 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

jph1 wrote:
Canon probably is ahead of their product launch roadmap in terms of development and staging. If they move too fast, it may force the type of cut-throat competition that we saw in personal computer products. They don’t wan’t that. We (consumers) do.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Canon ahead of its product launch roadmap? Exactly what does that mean?

Perhaps I've been around PCs longer than you but Intel literally screwed us all for 15 or 16 years, which is not a short time IMO, so where exactly was the "cut-throat" competiion you're talking about? Peripheral mfgs and "product assemblers" have typically operated on lower margins, but the principal mfgs, Intel, or Canon in this case, always enjoyed huge profits. Intel was absolutely egregious in their product pricing and release schedule so they could milk every dime out of people possible.

Canon won't enjoy that long run like Intel did. I'm not a Sony fan and think Nikon drinks its own bathwater, but I agree that we all need them to develop something decent (I'm not impressed with either companies offerings to date) and clip Canon's pricing wings.

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:28 PM

jph1
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #3 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

When I was talking about PC's I was referring to the price errosion for the BOX's not the chips from Intel. Intel is a good example of being ahead of your (product launch) roadmap. Intel had products fully developed and didn't release them until the plan or roadmap.

I think that's the position that Canon wants to be in (and every other company) but I agree that in this industry, it may not be that easy.

Basically competition is good for all of us consumers.

Jim

Sep 29, 2006 at 10:57 PM

jph1
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #4 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Oops... Sorry, I meant product development roadmap. If you're ahead of your product launch roadmap you are launching products before you plan to. Sorry for the confusion.
Jim

Sep 29, 2006 at 11:19 PM

Koivulehto
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #5 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

jph1 meant to write:
Canon probably is ahead of their product development roadmap in terms of development and staging. If they move too fast, it may force the type of cut-throat competition that we saw in personal computer products. They don’t wan’t that. We (consumers) do.

I understand that you are saying that Canon wants to preserve the current prices (and their margins) by not making the competitors too desperate. If that is really the case, I think Canon has done a decent job in the low-end DSLR market.

I would bet Canon’s next product is ready for production. I wouldn’t expect to see it until we see a fall off in sales of their current offerings.

I don't think Canon's current camera product offering is superior enough to enable them to do that.

Products that are ready for production are like vegetables: They rapidly hit their best-before date if you don't deliver them to the market. This is caused by two main factors:
1. Price to manufacture: Your product is always based on the overall components, tools, methods etc. available when it was developed, and they all grow old: Components become overpriced and eventually obsolete compared to newer components, and
2. Value to customer: Your competitors have time to invent and bring into production better solutions for the end user's actual reasons to buy

Sep 30, 2006 at 04:27 AM

jph1
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #6 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Koivulehto wrote:
I don't think Canon's current camera product offering is superior enough to enable them to do that.

I would agree on the low end. With the Pentax coming in that close to the Rebel--at least on paper--it looks like pretty tough competition. But I can't think of any real competition at the high end. No other manufacturer seems to be trying to knock off the 1dsMII.

Products that are ready for production are like vegetables: They rapidly hit their best-before date if you don't deliver them to the market. This is caused by two main factors:
1. Price to manufacture: Your product is always based on the overall components, tools, methods etc. available when it was developed, and they all grow old: Components become overpriced and eventually obsolete compared to newer components, and
2. Value to customer: Your competitors have time to invent and bring into production better solutions for the end user's actual reasons to buyjavascript:void(0);

I agree on your first point.

On the second point: You also have time to invent. You can continue to improve a design without releasing it until needed. There is alot of resources used to release a product. Let's say Canon has already developed a 22MP chip and the development is far along for a 30MP chip with high DR. What if you released it now. Pentax comes out with a similar product. Now you have competition. You've spent the cost and disruption of a product release, so you have competition until your next product release. Or, you concentrate on continuous development and when the Pentax comes out, you have a much better product to steal it's thunder.

Now that I think of it.... the 30D didn't fit into this type of strategy

Jim

Sep 30, 2006 at 08:31 PM

KIDERAL
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #7 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

In my opinion, canon is now behind the advanced prosumer market.

If what I read is correct we have a 14mp fovean at a time when Canon barely has a 10mp..

From my point of view as an early adopter I am going to save lots of money because canon product cycles are getting longer... instead of 4k every two years, 4k every four years is fine with me...

In point and shoot I have tried different brands.. maybe it is time to try different slr's... if I do, maybe I will like it and switch lens companies... who knows.....

Sep 30, 2006 at 08:42 PM

Frank Jr.
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #8 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Some one mentioned removable sensors on Photo Camel However, he/she did not verify his/her info. I kind of like that idea better than having the sensor shake every time I would start the camera.

Sep 30, 2006 at 09:03 PM

timbop
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #9 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

jph1 wrote:

I agree on your first point.

On the second point: You also have time to invent. You can continue to improve a design without releasing it until needed. There is alot of resources used to release a product. Let's say Canon has already developed a 22MP chip and the development is far along for a 30MP chip with high DR. What if you released it now. Pentax comes out with a similar product. Now you have competition. You've spent the cost and disruption of a product release, so you have competition until your next product release. Or, you concentrate on continuous development and when the Pentax comes out, you have a much better product to steal it's thunder.

Now that I think of it.... the 30D didn't fit into this type of strategy

Jim

that's the same reason that Xerox sat on ethernet, the first GUI, mouse interface, etc. Notice how well Xerox cornered the market?

Oct 01, 2006 at 01:08 AM

jph1
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #10 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Using the example of the mouse. Xerox had a bunch of stuff come out of PARC (Palo Alto Research Center I think), They never put the money into the mouse. It wasn't until Steve Jobs visited PARC, then hired an outside design firm to re-design it for PC's, did it take off. Not a matter of releasing it, Xerox didn't put the money behind it to make it a real product. Xerox didn't know what they had.

Canon should know what inventions would improve cameras. Let's hope they put the money behind it when a breakthrough comes up.
Jim

Oct 01, 2006 at 03:47 PM

Tentacle
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #11 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Oh, looks like this topic is cut loose now, adrift in the virtual forum space.

Many thanks to all the topic regulars for the entertaining and informative discussions we've had in this particular mammoth thread

I'll stick around of course, this isn't a good-bye, but it'll be quite a while before an epic topic like this will pop up again.

Oct 01, 2006 at 07:31 PM

Philippe Arnez
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #12 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Good-bye you beautiful thread...

On the other hand, I'll finally have time for myself again

Tentacle wrote:
[...], but it'll be quite a while before an epic topic like this will pop up again.

Let's see.... PMA starts 8th of March, this thread started about 6 weeks before the event, that makes around 25th of January, which is less than 4 month away...

Oct 01, 2006 at 08:15 PM

Tentacle
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #13 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Philippe Arnez wrote:
Good-bye you beautiful thread...

On the other hand, I'll finally have time for myself again

Ok, ok, I made the distinction between the mere start of a topic and it getting into the 2k post territory

Of course, it will not take that long before PMA rears its head, but that in itself only hints at another big topic, there's no guarantee there.

Oct 01, 2006 at 08:22 PM

DaDane
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #14 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

So the Digic III platform is just for the G7 or have I been missing something

Oct 02, 2006 at 06:52 PM

Tentacle
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #15 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaDane wrote:
So the Digic III platform is just for the G7 or have I been missing something

For now, yes, but expect it to appear in the successor to the 30D. If anything, newer chip design and fabrication technology will lower costs and power consumption. That alone will make it worthwhile to put it into new generations of dSLR.

Oct 02, 2006 at 06:56 PM

Koivulehto
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #16 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Digic III will very likely be in several future Canon DSLR cameras, but it is not yet known how soon Canon will release any of those cameras.

Oct 02, 2006 at 06:57 PM

Alistair Watson
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #17 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

So this means goodbye to the photokina thread, when do we say hello to the 'Unofficial PMA RUMOUR thread'?

Oct 02, 2006 at 07:05 PM

timbop
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.82 #18 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaDane wrote:
So the Digic III platform is just for the G7 or have I been missing something

Yep, for now DIGIC 3 is just in P&S's. Expect that to change before PMA

Oct 02, 2006 at 07:25 PM

DaDane
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #19 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

And what happend to better DR and ISO 6400? I though it would come with Digic III.

Aah, I guess I am a bit disappointed.

Oct 03, 2006 at 05:16 AM

Tentacle
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #20 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

DaDane wrote:
And what happend to better DR and ISO 6400? I though it would come with Digic III.

Aah, I guess I am a bit disappointed.

Better DR and higher ISO are both depending on the sensor, not on the chip that does the digitial post processing and the rest. Again, read the Canon Full Frame White Paper (an easy find with google or the like) and find out why DR and SNR are determined by the sensor itself. All DIGIC I/II/III can do is blurr to suppress noise and destroy detail in the proces.

Oct 03, 2006 at 06:26 AM

Philippe Arnez
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #21 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Here you go, for those who haven't read it yet and should do so

http://www.robgalbraith.com/public_files/Canon_Full-Frame_CMOS_White_Paper.pdf

Oct 03, 2006 at 10:21 AM

Tentacle
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #22 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

That White Paper should be stickied, I think

By the way, did anyone find out what Canon meant with The Legend? I got the Canon September newsletter today (

isn't it october?) and that mentions the 10th birthday of the Ixus, and an overview/history of this "legend".

Oct 03, 2006 at 10:29 AM

mbohunsky
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #23 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

People have been saying that it's the new 50mm L.

Oct 03, 2006 at 11:33 AM

KIDERAL
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #24 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

If its not obvious, then no legend exists....

Oct 03, 2006 at 11:37 AM

keith_cooper
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.82 #25 · 'Unofficial' Photokina RUMOR Thread

Thanks to all of you who have sent me messages and info about this rumour thread. I'm disappointed (but not overly surprised) that I'll not be getting a new 1 series camera until the spring. Still, the company bank account can breath a sigh of relief for a bit...

I'll be keeping up the Northlight rumours page, ready for PMA ;-)

Now to get back to some paying work :-)

Keith Cooper

PS if anyone is curious I just added a short review of using the TS-E90 to the one I did a while ago about the TS-E24 -- The TS-E90 is a good sharp lens and should be good enough to show how much of an improvement there is when they eventually bring out a "Mark 3"

Oct 03, 2006 at 05:52 PM


FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 81 82 83 84 end