CZ Lens Problems on 5D

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Archive 2005 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

jjlphoto
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p.2 #1 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

I'm willing to bet it is merely sloppy manufacturing on Canons part. Some clear on some peoples bodies, some do not. The mirror assembly may even be jobbed out to another vendor, and perhaps the ones at the outer limits of acceptable tolerance may be the ones causing problems. Even with precision manufacturing, there are tolerance imperfections. Maybe Canon is satisfied to the nearest 0.5mm.

Perhaps a return to the 1Ds is in order. Lots of them for cheap out there.

Oct 11, 2005 at 02:08 PM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #2 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

MarkSaperstein wrote:
With all due respect, I feel that compiling a master list is a fool's mission. There is too much variability from individual lens to lens, adapter to adapter, and even camera to camera. There are some generalizations that can be made, but they are just generalizations.
--Mark

Hi Mark

I agree w/ you but in my humble opinion a "continuously updated" list is better than nothing and surely better than digging over forum's past topics. However, the more people will try CZ lenses on their 5D the more the list will be reliable. IMHO

Ciao,

Emanuele

PS Excuse me for my english

Oct 11, 2005 at 02:15 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #3 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Emanuele,

Wow! You've certainly spent a lot of time on this. Your list deserves a spot on the top of a thread. Maybe you should start a new thread. For now, I will take the liberty of pasting your list to my original post. As Mark Saperstein says, these are just generalizations, but I think they do help in determining what may or may not be possible to use on a 5D.

Oct 11, 2005 at 02:41 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #4 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

jjlphoto wrote:
I'm willing to bet it is merely sloppy manufacturing on Canons part. Some clear on some peoples bodies, some do not. The mirror assembly may even be jobbed out to another vendor, and perhaps the ones at the outer limits of acceptable tolerance may be the ones causing problems. Even with precision manufacturing, there are tolerance imperfections. Maybe Canon is satisfied to the nearest 0.5mm.

Perhaps a return to the 1Ds is in order. Lots of them for cheap out there.

Hmm... I bet you're right, John. I wonder if that's the real reason all the EF lenses have "soft" inifinity. Even if there is variability in the flange-to-back distance, the AF system can deal with it if you can go past infinity.

Oct 11, 2005 at 02:59 PM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #5 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

PSquared63 wrote:
Emanuele,

Wow! You've certainly spent a lot of time on this. Your list deserves a spot on the top of a thread. Maybe you should start a new thread. For now, I will take the liberty of pasting your list to my original post. As Mark Saperstein says, these are just generalizations, but I think they do help in determining what may or may not be possible to use on a 5D.

Thank you very much PSquared!

Take a look here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/293080/0/2458048

Ciao,

Emanuele

Oct 11, 2005 at 03:03 PM

gurtch
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p.2 #6 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

With the popularity of the Leica and CZ lenses (especially the wides) on 1DS and 1DsII, do you think Canon intentionally made changes to the 5D design to discourage (prohibit??) their use? Just a thought.
Dave

Oct 11, 2005 at 03:14 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #7 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

I don't know, Dave. If I were Canon, I would just make the best, affordable full-frame sensor camera possible and let the photographer choose what glasses to put on it. If it's Canon glass, fine, if not, that would be fine, too. I don't think Canon intentionally made the mirror clearance narrower. They probably only think about the EF lenses when they design cameras and not whether or not 3rd party lenses will fit.

Oct 11, 2005 at 08:41 PM

gtmerideth
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p.2 #8 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

My 5D operates correctly with the following Olympus lenses:

18/3.5
21/3.5
28/2
28/3.5
55/1.2
90/2
all with a CQ adapter.

In additiion, my CZ 50/1.7 also works fine but the MM 18 does not.
I will test some more of my CZ inventory soon.

Hope this helps.
gary merideth

Oct 11, 2005 at 10:07 PM

JFB318
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p.2 #9 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Is it possible that the tight tolerence between the sensor plane and lens mount is now accomplished with the sensor position adjustment rather than machine tolerance at the mount? This would easily explain the difference between two similar bodies. The mirror position relative to the mount would be affected due to a larger tolerence at the mount.

Oct 11, 2005 at 10:34 PM

Bob Parsons
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p.2 #10 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

gtmerideth wrote:
My 5D operates correctly with the following Olympus lenses:

18/3.5
21/3.5
28/2
28/3.5
55/1.2
90/2
all with a CQ adapter.

In additiion, my CZ 50/1.7 also works fine but the MM 18 does not.
I will test some more of my CZ inventory soon.

Hope this helps.
gary merideth

I'll add to that list:

24/2.8
24/3.5 Shift
35/2.8
35/2.8 Shift
50/1.2

All with Cameraquest OM-EOS adapter.

Bob.

Oct 11, 2005 at 10:50 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #11 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

JFB318 wrote:
Is it possible that the tight tolerence between the sensor plane and lens mount is now accomplished with the sensor position adjustment rather than machine tolerance at the mount? This would easily explain the difference between two similar bodies. The mirror position relative to the mount would be affected due to a larger tolerence at the mount.

I would have thought that it would be easier to make the mount to specs than to adjust the sensor position. Adjusting the sensor position would probably be fraught with misalignment of the plane.

Oct 12, 2005 at 01:39 AM

gtmerideth
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p.2 #12 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Here are the successful CZ lenses which do not interfere with the mirror in my 5D.

21/2.8
28/2.8
50/1.7
60/2.8c
100/2
100/3.5
135/2.8
35/70
28/85

gary merideth

Oct 12, 2005 at 01:45 AM

PSquared63
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p.2 #13 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Thanks for the reports, Gary and Bob.

Oct 12, 2005 at 01:55 AM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #14 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

gtmerideth wrote:
Here are the successful CZ lenses which do not interfere with the mirror in my 5D.

21/2.8
28/2.8
50/1.7
60/2.8c
100/2
100/3.5
135/2.8
35/70
28/85

gary merideth

please, let me know what adapter have you used, so that I can update the compatibility list. Thanks!

Oct 12, 2005 at 07:10 AM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #15 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

gurtch wrote:
With the popularity of the Leica and CZ lenses (especially the wides) on 1DS and 1DsII, do you think Canon intentionally made changes to the 5D design to discourage (prohibit??) their use? Just a thought.
Dave

I second PSquared.

My guess is that Canon didn't it intentionally and if you look at the compatibility list (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/293080), u'll see that the best CZ wides work with the 5D. The 3.5/15 is the only one that must be tested yet but its Leica counterpart WORKS good with a mod. Speaking about Leica is a different thing because their lenses design is different and the back protrudes deeply into the mount.

My 2 euro-cents

Ciao,

Emanuele

Oct 12, 2005 at 09:11 AM

Gerry Szarek
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p.2 #16 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

As a suggestion when you post the lens that works you include the serial number with the last 2 or 3 digits XXX'd out. I know Leica changes lens design's without notifying users, ditto Zeiss. You also can post the list on Leica page of www.photo.net to get others feed back.

Oct 12, 2005 at 01:56 PM

frasergjb
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p.2 #17 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

I've just joined this forum because of the excellent information and reasoned discussion available. Good stuff.

I'm particularly interested in the CZ compatibility issue, as one of the reasons that I recently purchased a 5D was the presumption that it would work with my CZ lens collection. At the moment I have a cheap Chinese throw-away adapter bought from Eb@y, while I decide whether I really should buy a more expensive adapter - provided it's a good fit and the stops are in the right place it shouldn't be a problem.

I have the 24-105L and the 50mm f1.8 EOS lenses, which I will use as benchmarks to assess any increase (or decrease) in performance of CZ lenses
I have so far tried the CZ f2.8 25 AE, 35 f2.8 MM. 28 f2.8 AE and 60 f2.8 Macro Planar 1:1 AE. I have several more to try but have not had time to yet. First impressions are that these all mount OK, although the only one that I have tried at infinity was the 25, which is then a little soft across the image (including centre), so I think that I may have an issue, although I shall repeat the infinity test on thsi an other lenses.

I like to try to think these things through from first principles, so correct me if you think I'm wrong ! I understand that if you use an extension tube, you lose infinity focus, I guess because the infinity focus plane is now in front of the sensor/film. Hence it follows that if the adapter is too thick, then you will lose the ability to infinity focus (if your lens has an accurate stop at infinity, as the CZ's all seem to do). Similarly, if the Canon body flange to sensor plane distance is too long, then the same effect will show up.

If the adapter is too thin, then the infinity stop will be past infinity. Hence infinity focus should still be possible, but you have to retreat from infinity somewhat.

This doesn't seem to square with those posters who are seeing infinity focus problems when their adapter is too thin i.e. 1.4mm rather than the correct 1.5mm. I'm going to try to get hold of a micrometer to check in the thickness of my adapter........

Any thoughts? It would be interesting to know whether, if I do have a problem, I shall need to skim, shim or replace my adapter! Or whether there is another explanation completely?

Rgds
Fraser

Oct 12, 2005 at 02:14 PM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #18 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

frasergjb wrote:
Any thoughts? It would be interesting to know whether, if I do have a problem, I shall need to skim, shim or replace my adapter! Or whether there is another explanation completely?

Rgds
Fraser

Welcome, Fraser and thankyou for your feedback!

Here u'll find the CZ-to-5D list (includes different adapter types). Please, post your tests&findings there, so that I can update the list. Thankyou again!

Ciao,

Emanuele

Oct 12, 2005 at 02:35 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #19 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

frasergjb wrote:
This doesn't seem to square with those posters who are seeing infinity focus problems when their adapter is too thin i.e. 1.4mm rather than the correct 1.5mm. I'm going to try to get hold of a micrometer to check in the thickness of my adapter........

Rgds
Fraser

Welcome to the forum, Fraser.

I'm not sure if those were actual measurements or manufacturing specifications. If the 1.4mm were manufacturing spec, then it's possible that the adapter was actually made thicker than that and not allow infinity focus. Also, even if the adapter is 1.4mm thick in some places, if other sections of the adapter are 1.6mm thick, then it may not give you inifity focus. I think that's why that poster wrote that manufacturing precision is extremely important.

Peter

Oct 12, 2005 at 03:22 PM

gtmerideth
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p.2 #20 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

The adapters used for my CZ lenses were Bob Shell's and Fotodiox/Son.

gary merideth

Oct 12, 2005 at 03:44 PM

Emanuele_C
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p.2 #21 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

gtmerideth wrote:
The adapters used for my CZ lenses were Bob Shell's and Fotodiox/Son.

gary merideth

Thanks! I'll update the list ASAP.

Emanuele

Oct 12, 2005 at 03:48 PM

frasergjb
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p.2 #22 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Welcome to the forum, Fraser.

I'm not sure if those were actual measurements or manufacturing specifications. If the 1.4mm were manufacturing spec, then it's possible that the adapter was actually made thicker than that and not allow infinity focus.

Peter

Thanks for the welcome Peter.

I got the idea that +1.5mm was correct from this table:

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/eosfaq/manual_focus_EOS.html

The Leica R register is +3mm, which of course means they are further from the 5D mirror.

I've got no idea whether the data is correct, or what the critical tolerances are.

Oct 12, 2005 at 04:38 PM

Daniel Buck
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p.2 #23 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

I would love to hear if the 28/2.8 and 50/1.7 work with the 5D, does anyone have these combos? I'm using Son's adapter, I'm not sure how it compares in thickness to the rest of them.

Oct 12, 2005 at 06:03 PM

Cinstance
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p.2 #24 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

frasergjb wrote:

I'm not sure if those were actual measurements or manufacturing specifications. If the 1.4mm were manufacturing spec, then it's possible that the adapter was actually made thicker than that and not allow infinity focus.

I got the idea that +1.5mm was correct from this table:

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/eosfaq/manual_focus_EOS.html

The Leica R register is +3mm, which of course means they are further from the 5D mirror.

I've got no idea whether the data is correct, or what the critical tolerances are.

It is not just as simple as just making the thickness right. Every adapter will introduce two more surface alignments, and a little inaccuracy in the alignments will introduce bigger error than the thickness itself can contribute.

Oct 12, 2005 at 06:48 PM

PSquared63
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p.2 #25 · CZ Lens Problems on 5D

Daniel Buck wrote:
I would love to hear if the 28/2.8 and 50/1.7 work with the 5D, does anyone have these combos? I'm using Son's adapter, I'm not sure how it compares in thickness to the rest of them.

Gary reported above that those lenses work with the 5D.

Oct 12, 2005 at 10:33 PM


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