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Archive 2013 · Sony A7r shutter vibration

  
 
Herb1911
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


The shutter of the Sony A7r is not only rather noisy but it is also a source of vibration.
It will probably go unnoticed most of the time but when used with adapted tele lenses and the use of a tripod collar
one is likely to see it in the exposure range of 1/125 to 1/2s.
I posted some examples here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/leicasonyzeiss/11008383213/



Nov 23, 2013 at 05:01 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Question...how do we know the sharpness difference is not due to the different F-stops used (diffraction at F8 vs F4 and so on) rather than the vibration of the shutter? Perhaps altering the ISO while maintaining the same aperture would eliminate that variable, unless I missed something. Thus, your first pair would end up being shot at:
1/60 F4 ISO 800 and 1/100 F4 ISO 1600

Ideally, either more light so exposures could be made at ISO 200 and 400 or, better yet, having control over light output (unless it's strobe) so ISO could be kept the same along with aperture.



Nov 23, 2013 at 07:27 PM
_julian_
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


The configuration of sync speed between the A7r (1/160s) and A7 (1/250s) for the same FP shutter assembly is probably attributable to Sony trying to reduce vibration of the mechanical first curtain.


Nov 23, 2013 at 07:49 PM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


I am not sure if I am seeing softness in those images. If so it is very minor. If it is an issue, you can use the old trick of placing a bean bag on top of the lens and adapter to help to absorb any shock.

I will be on the lookout for this problem when using my Novoflex adapter when used with the rotating collar with telephoto lenses and zooms on my A7r after I receive it. I will also be on the lookout when using lens collared lenses with the A7r.

Rich



Nov 23, 2013 at 08:26 PM
melcat
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


naturephoto1 wrote:
I am not sure if I am seeing softness in those images.
Rich


I see it, e.g. inside the dark diagonal band.

This does remind me of the problems we used to have with the old OM film bodies. (Those were mosty mirror slap though.) Some people said the best tripod technique was not to use a remote shutter release, but to cup the top of the camera in your hands and press it directly.



Nov 23, 2013 at 09:03 PM
sflxn
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


This is a topic I am extremely interested in. I think if there is anything that will rain on the A7r's parade, it will be what m43 owners call shutter shock. I hope more people watch out for this carefully and chime in on it. However, if what is shown in these images are the extent of shutter shock vibration on the A7r, then I am extremely ecstatic. This is not bad at all. It's probably less than mirror slap vibration that many DSLR users experience.


Nov 23, 2013 at 09:15 PM
philip_pj
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


One of the things that is very noticable about the hundreds of handheld images seen thus far from the a7r is the near total absence of definition loss, even at 100%.

We of course need to be attentive to this issue, but Sony have an excellent record as they know their cameras will be used (inter alia) as high end image producers, it's been that way since the landscape oriented a900. Until last week I had never heard the term 'shutter shock', and it was not in connection with a Sony camera. You are also the first to report this occurrence, so the burden of proof rests more heavily upon your shoulders.

Certainly such claims need to present convincing methodologies in support - as in repeatable sets showing the same phenomenon and isolation or adjusting for extraneous variables that, as Tariq suggests, may explain what is seen.

'Vibration of the A7r is clearly showing up from 1/125s to 1/2s.'
Where are the rest of these images? I saw only two side by side. Do you claim both are affected, to a differing extent?

How well was the tripod anchored? ...a lot of people operate under the illusion that a few kgs of combined pod/head/camera/lens is sufficient to stabilise the platform under all circumstances - it isn't. I can provide a white paper on this if needed.

So thus far I find the statement: 'Vibration of the A7r is clearly showing up' far from statistically proven. There are other factors - few people shoot bank notes for either a living or for fun. You could try more typical subject matter with a resulting higher chance of persuasion. Finally, you could include in the 'test' your preferred reference setup, whether a D800e or similar - to at least indicate what the target performance might be, what is fair to be expected...so 'an open mind but need more information'.



Nov 23, 2013 at 10:06 PM
kezeka
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


If you ever have a client that can tell you the difference in sharpness between the complete images (not 100% crop) on a 24x36" print of two portraits taken at these exact same settings then I would be (shutter) shocked.




Nov 23, 2013 at 10:16 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


If the A7 has the same shutter mechanism as the A7R, one way to test the vibration would be to compare exposures with and without the electronic first curtain enabled on the A7. Not an exact comparison since it's 24MP vs 36MP, plus the A7R has a different front plate I believe, so the resonance wouldn't be an exact match.


Nov 23, 2013 at 10:25 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


While browsing Lloyd Chambers's site recently I noticed he experienced shutter vibration problems with the M240. It seems that the live view mode of the camera and physical first shutter curtain requires a number of physical 'movements' that cause vibrations: live view>close shutter for exposure>open shutter to start exposure>close shutter to end exposure>open shutter to continue with live view. It would appear the quick sequence of closing the shutter then opening it to begin exposure was a considerable factor in the loss of sharpness...

I wondering whether this is also a factor with the 'R' since it doesn't have the electronic first shutter curtain option?



Nov 23, 2013 at 11:18 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


rscheffler wrote:
While browsing Lloyd Chambers's site recently I noticed he experienced shutter vibration problems with the M240. It seems that the live view mode of the camera and physical first shutter curtain requires a number of physical 'movements' that cause vibrations: live view>close shutter for exposure>open shutter to start exposure>close shutter to end exposure>open shutter to continue with live view. It would appear the quick sequence of closing the shutter then opening it to begin exposure was a considerable factor in the loss of sharpness...

I wondering whether this is also a factor with the 'R' since it doesn't have the
...Show more

An electronic first curtain avoids shutter vibration because the physical shutter only moves to end the exposure (2nd curtain), so most of the residual vibration occurs after the curtain has completed its travel over the sensor plane. In contrast, the vibration from a 1st physical curtain is still resonating while the exposure is occurring - it's even worse for MILCs since you have the vibration from both the 2nd curtain and 1st curtain (recocking the shutter during an exposure).



Nov 23, 2013 at 11:33 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Right, and isn't it only the a7 model that has electronic first shutter curtain? As you suggested earlier, it would be interesting to see what, if any difference there is with the a7 in both electronic and physical first shutter curtain modes.


Nov 23, 2013 at 11:36 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


rscheffler wrote:
Right, and isn't it only the a7 model that has electronic first shutter curtain? As you suggested earlier, it would be interesting to see what, if any difference there is with the a7 in both electronic and physical first shutter curtain modes.


Yep, only the A7 has the electronic first curtain. It's curious why Sony was not able to implement one on the A7R. Interestingly, every Canon DSLR starting from the 40D has an electronic first curtain when using Live View, whereas no Nikon DSLR does.



Nov 23, 2013 at 11:40 PM
JaKo
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


why Sony was not able to implement one {electronic first curtain} on the A7R. Interestingly, every Canon DSLR starting from the 40D has an electronic first curtain when using Live View, whereas no Nikon DSLR does.

Wasn't able(!) or decided against it?
Snapsy, in the avalanche of speculations, guesses and pointing out faults as this post indicates, forum posters and first hand products users are usually the first to spot issues like recent left side AF issue with D800, sensor spots on D600, 'some' quirks with M240, etc. That's all good, but global bold statements should be supported by at least decent examples and tests. Lloyd Chambers has few articles in his (paid) DAP section related to shutter and tripod vibrations. I would expect no less from any one stating "What's wrong with...”, "Why such and such brand screwed it up" and alike.

If one 'discovers' a major flow in a specific product, please share it AND support your findings by at least tests similar to this.



Nov 24, 2013 at 12:56 AM
melcat
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


philip_pj wrote:
So thus far I find the statement: 'Vibration of the A7r is clearly showing up' far from statistically proven. There are other factors - few people shoot bank notes for either a living or for fun. You could try more typical subject matter with a resulting higher chance of persuasion. Finally, you could include in the 'test' your preferred reference setup, whether a D800e or similar - to at least indicate what the target performance might be, what is fair to be expected...so 'an open mind but need more information'.


I am not convinced that Tariq's suggested method of varying ISO woud be an improvement, because we have no way of knowing whether Sony is doing undocumented noise reduction on raw files. I doubt they are, but it has apparently been done by some maker. Varying the light would be better. The idea of diffraction at f/5.6 is unfamiliar to me - maybe someone with more knowledge of optics could calculate what the diffraction effect should be.

"Typical" subject matter is fraught with wind motion and atmospherics. OP has chosen a subject easily replicable by anyone in the eurozone. Normal scientific method would be for others to replicate and extend the experiment (likely the reason for the OP), not to invoke "burden of proof". When scientists publish a paper they don't give every last result, but the key results and data and enough information for others to check their work.



Nov 24, 2013 at 03:15 AM
uhoh7
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


Since I'm seeing hundreds of lazer sharp handheld shots with all sorts of glass, at all sorts of speeds, I'd have to say this is a myth.

Don't blame the camera if you can't hold it still.

Edited on Nov 24, 2013 at 03:39 AM · View previous versions



Nov 24, 2013 at 03:37 AM
melcat
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


uhoh7 wrote:
Since I'm seeing hundreds of lazer sharp handheld shots with all sorts of glass I'd have to say this is a myth.


I can vouch for the fact that the OM-3 could be sharper handheld than on a tripod. Best theory on the Olympus mailing list was that the hands damped the shock.



Nov 24, 2013 at 03:38 AM
uhoh7
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


melcat wrote:
I can vouch for the fact that the OM-3 could be sharper handheld than on a tripod. Best theory on the Olympus mailing list was that the hands damped the shock.


I'm also seeing hundreds of tripod shots at all speeds.

They are wicked sharp.

How do you explain that?



Nov 24, 2013 at 03:42 AM
melcat
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


uhoh7 wrote:
I'm also seeing hundreds of tripod shots at all speeds.

They are wicked sharp.

How do you explain that?


Question is not whether they are "wicked sharp" but whether they are sharper outside some range of shutter speeds susceptible to slap.

Why are people here so keen to shut down discussion on this matter? It should be easily provable one way or the other. I can't, because I don't have the camera. But there must be or soon be someone here at FM who can test with the same lens on the Sony and its honking great 1kg native DSLR body.



Nov 24, 2013 at 03:46 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony A7r shutter vibration


It would seem the level of speculation around the a7 cameras is culminating to where some are frustrated by an apparent disconnect between theoretical and 'real world' applications of the gear....


Nov 24, 2013 at 04:20 AM
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