Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

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Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding ...

Ballistics
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p.3 #1 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

alohadave wrote:
Ballistics wrote:
Trust me, it's not worth it since this is your wife's boss. We are being harsh because in the end, if anything goes wrong, your wife may end up dealing with and hearing about it. Perhaps if you were a wedding pro it would be a different story, but you aren't, so this is not a good situation to be in at all. Walk away.

I'm not concerned about who it is.

Dude, I applaud you for having the biggest brass balls in history. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if the pictures turn out bad and your wife gets the heat from her boss.

You guys are really hung up on this boss thing. If I bomb it, I can almost guarantee that it wouldn't effect my wife's working environment.

Feb 24, 2013 at 05:59 AM

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p.3 #2 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

kwhaley29 wrote:
Many photographers have been in your shoes including me. When people have faith in you it's easy to get caught up in the "idea" of being a wedding photographer before you're actually ready. If I had it to do over again I would have been a second shooter for many many weddings before ever agreeing to take on my first as the lead. No amount of homework can replace the knowledge that you'll gain through experience and it is truly invaluable.

Having said that, whether you decide to shoot the wedding or not there is a wealth of information on this site and it comes from photographers of all skill levels. My advice is to be a sponge. Dig through the threads and absorb as much as you can. What you learn here will be useful when you're out gaining experience.

I don't plan on making photography a profession. In fact, I'm making the leap into law enforcement this summer so If I do decide to do this, it will probably be a one time thing.

I know there's a lot of knowledge on this site, and I've gotten a lot out of the limited time I've been here.

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:02 AM

alohadave
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p.3 #3 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Ballistics wrote:
alohadave wrote:
Ballistics wrote:
Trust me, it's not worth it since this is your wife's boss. We are being harsh because in the end, if anything goes wrong, your wife may end up dealing with and hearing about it. Perhaps if you were a wedding pro it would be a different story, but you aren't, so this is not a good situation to be in at all. Walk away.

I'm not concerned about who it is.

Dude, I applaud you for having the biggest brass balls in history. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if the pictures turn out bad and your wife gets the heat from her boss.

You guys are really hung up on this boss thing. If I bomb it, I can almost guarantee that it wouldn't effect my wife's working environment.

If you say so.

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:13 AM

Ballistics
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p.3 #4 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

dwerther wrote:

OP - I like to see the best in people so I am going to assume, with you being relatively new to FM, that you did not know what you were walking into with your post. You are correct in that you did not ask for validation of the decision to shoot it or not. When you said "where should I go from here" you were asking what other considerations should you have and what else would be expected of you. Based on the responses you got you can see that pros here thought that you were asking if you should shoot it or not. They have very good reasons for adamantly suggesting you do not.

And I see it their way 99.9% of the time. I was the one who was approached, turned it down once and the asked again.
Even after explaining in detail what I don't know, I was still asked to consider it.

Even if the bride tells you it is a second wedding and not to sweat it, you should consider the possibility that she does not mean what you think she means. Or even what she said she means. She does NOT mean that she does not want complete coverage of her wedding with no gaps in the important parts, and that having good photos is not important to her.
I'm not going to pretend that people don't have the ability of saying what they don't mean. But in all fairness, how do you know what she really means, if what she is saying is different than what she wants? And I ask that without an ounce of disrespect. I think to say what she "really" means, is a bit unfair for you to do.

I suspect that as others have suggested her motives are at least partly financial, and that she is expecting "good enough" from you. Real wedding photographers have the experience, gear (and backup gear), and the ability to think on their feet to deliver quality in almost any situation. Much thought should be given to the consequences to you, the couple, the family, and your sister if you do not deliver to match her stated, and her "real" expectations.

I would assume the majority is financial. Otherwise why not hire an established professional? Better yet, why ask a second time after turned down?

And finally, successful wedding photographers do another thing very well - they communicate with patience, diplomacy, and professionalism. This includes standing up for themselves, but in a constructive and non-confrontational way. Based on your posts here you might want to keep that in mind.
That's an unfair thing to say. I'm no stranger to professionalism and diplomacy, but I also wasn't provided any for the few that replied to my post. In the real world, this entire exchange would have went very differently. And as for professionalism, I hate to play this card but I'm a Navy Vet and ran a successful PT business during my tenure. I know all about diplomacy and patience and professionalism.

So go ahead and shoot it. Same as Thomas Edison, you will learn much, including a dozen lessons about what does not work. If you deliver to her expectations you will be a hero. If not then everyone involved learns a lesson.

Good luck to you sir.

Thanks

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:21 AM

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p.3 #5 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Daboyle wrote:
In all seriousness, if you think of this as a stress free gig, you need to really re-evaluate what you are doing.
Trust me when I tell you, shooting a wedding is probably one of the least stressful things I will ever experience, especially one that has been downplayed the way it was. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I've experienced a lot worse in my life both personally and professionally to be intimidated to the point where I'm stressed out. Having said that, If I did it I still would take it seriously and treat it with importance.

While yes, weddings don't have to be the nightmare that they potentially can be, they sure aren't a walk in the park. And if you treat it like that, then you really are doing a disservice to the client and yourself.
I disagree. You don't have to be ultra intense to provide a good service. This whole if/else thing you do is a little annoying.

So now that youve established you will more than likely shoot the wedding
I didn't actually establish that at all.

you need to think about gear. What do you have in terms of bodies, lenses, and lighting?
I have a D7000, 70-200mm, few primes handful of speedlights, a few stands, umbrellas

How much gear will you be renting? Do you even know what to rent in terms of secondary gear? What is the total cost of renting that gear?
I just spoke to her today about maybe doing her wedding, so no I don't have the answer to any of these questions.

Make sure to get to know how to fully use the gear BEFORE the wedding.
Will do.

You need to figure this out before meeting with the bride to be. You need a number in your head that you are OK with. As far as insurance, it will be a sticky situation.
I'm going to need more information from the bride before I can get that number in my head.

If you don't have state sales tax or business license, you wont be insured if she sues, you damage equipment or get it stolen, nada. Because you are making profit off this gig - and if business insurance found out and then found out you were operating illegally, they will walk away. And you can't cover it under personal and home, because again, you are making money.... I don't think any of this is true. I'll look into it, but I just 1040'd my income for PT and had insurance.

and honestly I don't think insurance will just cover one day. You can check, but I'd be surprised and if they do, the fee will be pretty high, say 50-200 bucks depending on level of coverage

Edit: NVM the insurance I found I think is for the venue, not sure though.

Edited on Feb 24, 2013 at 06:53 AM · View previous versions

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:42 AM

Ballistics
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p.3 #6 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

alohadave wrote:
Ballistics wrote:
alohadave wrote:
Ballistics wrote:
Trust me, it's not worth it since this is your wife's boss. We are being harsh because in the end, if anything goes wrong, your wife may end up dealing with and hearing about it. Perhaps if you were a wedding pro it would be a different story, but you aren't, so this is not a good situation to be in at all. Walk away.

I'm not concerned about who it is.

Dude, I applaud you for having the biggest brass balls in history. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if the pictures turn out bad and your wife gets the heat from her boss.

You guys are really hung up on this boss thing. If I bomb it, I can almost guarantee that it wouldn't effect my wife's working environment.

If you say so.

That's the best I can do is give you my word. But if they lost my wife at that place, they would be hurting.

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:45 AM

Daboyle
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p.3 #7 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Ballistics perhaps you got off on the wrong foot, and I probably did too, but it somewhat sounds like you have to defend every suggestion others make and seem to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder. There are a lot of experienced pros out here trying to engage and help you out, and yes while some ( including myself ) have come across rough in the way we address a non-pro shooting a wedding, it is from experience and well intentioned advice. We aren't saying you are not capable, or that you might not have the skill. Take it for what it's worth, but you will be greeted much more openly if you will be gracious about advice rather than trying to have the last word. And I still stand by the fact if this is a once time gig, you have to rent equipment, it is your wife's boss, and you have no interest in further pursuing wedding photography - it honestly is best in your interest to just courteously bow out and enjoy the wedding as a guest, if at all.

I am not saying a wedding is going to be the most stressfull thing you will experience, or close to it. But I can tell you personally, after working for a fortune 500 company as an architect designing high end hospitality for ritz calton, w hotels, jk mariott, omni, Wyndam, Wynn and various other high end hospitality players with crazy deadlines - weddings can be very very stressful sometimes. And most of the times you never know when to expect it. This also comes from someone who played collegiate NCAA sports. Again, lets not play the 1 up card, but just realize that weddings come, sometimes, with unexpected and chaotic situations.

Edited on Feb 24, 2013 at 07:03 AM · View previous versions

Feb 24, 2013 at 06:57 AM

Daboyle
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p.3 #8 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

When emotions and money are involved, you can never guarantee how others will act in those situations, esp seeing as you do not know the bride at all. Some of the seemingly best clients have ended up being nightmares and some of the expected worst ones have been the smoothest. You cant read a book by the cover, although trust me, I wish you could in this line of work. You just have to step back and say ok, would it be worth it to me to dive into this situation with what could *potentially* go wrong - and only you can make that ultimate decision.

Feb 24, 2013 at 07:00 AM

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p.3 #9 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

TTLKurtis wrote:

You need to make sure in whatever contract you have that you make zero guarantees about client satisfaction and that they understand you are not a wedding photographer or even a professional photographer and that you can not be held liable for any damages should the pictures be terrible, should you lose the photographs, whatever... This needs to be very clearly understood, because you could be sued personally. Not to mention the fact that it could potentially affect your wife's employment or at least her work environment. In that case, the liability insurance thing is less of a concern and so far as I'm aware nobody is going to want to insure you 'for the day' - that's not how insurance works (to my understanding). You will want equipment insurance however if you plan to do photography for money.

I do plan on making all of this clear.

Have you had to deal with the types of lighting you'll be dealing with at a wedding before? Or the quantity of images you'll be producing?

I don't know the venue, so I can't comment on the lighting, but I have dealt with massive amounts of images before in a short period of time.

Depending on how picky you are and how much you want to put into it, it could certainly take you a lot more than a couple of days. I would give yourself a pretty big safety net just in case you end up needing it. 30 or 60 days isn't too bad in terms of a 'standard turn-around' and leaves a lot more time for 'oh shit' moments.

30 days is definitely more than I need, but I'll be sure to keep that time frame in mind. Sounds fair.

So taking it a step further, when you shoot a wedding, how do you go about picking the images you want to edit? Do you pick your best and show her and let her pick, or do you just pick the ones you think are the best and edit them. Also how many good pictures should you have for a 3 hour reception? Any links for wedding albums?

This varies for every photographer and ultimately if you were going to continue doing this you have to figure out what makes most sense for you and how you prefer to do things and what aligns with your values etc... Personally, I cull the images (select them) before I edit them and with two photographers I can end up with anywhere from 400-800 photographs on average. I do not show them anything I've culled, as far as they are concerned those images don't exist.

So if I'm going to edit 600 pictures, I'm definitely going to need that 30 days. I was thinking along the lines of 100-150 edited pictures at the most.

I think if you're going to do this, I would make it a condition that they need to pay you sufficiently for you to cover the majority of the day's activities from getting-ready to the exit so that this is a worthwhile learning experience for you. If this is just talking about doing the reception only, that's the biggest pain in the ass to shoot and in my opinion the least interesting.

Seems like I'm not going to be much of a bargain after all lol.

In terms of wedding albums... well, there's a bunch of links in the read-me-first thread in this forum however the majority of the wedding album vendors are not going to work with you unless you're a working professional with a website and tax id, etc.

So you turned out to be the most helpful and informative person in this thread. Jerk.

I appreciate this. Truly.

Edited on Feb 24, 2013 at 07:41 AM · View previous versions

Feb 24, 2013 at 07:11 AM

Ballistics
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p.3 #10 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Daboyle wrote:
Ballistics perhaps you got off on the wrong foot, and I probably did too, but it somewhat sounds like you have to defend every suggestion others make and seem to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder. There are a lot of experienced pros out here trying to engage and help you out, and yes while some ( including myself ) have come across rough in the way we address a non-pro shooting a wedding, it is from experience and well intentioned advice.

The issue I have is the lack of common courtesy and respect. The amount of condescension that was experienced in the first few posts set the tone.

We aren't saying you are not capable, or that you might not have the skill. Take it for what it's worth, but you will be greeted much more openly if you will be gracious about advice rather than trying to have the last word.

Gracious to what exactly? I didn't start getting usable advice up until a few posts ago. I understand that you are trying to bury the hatchet here, but making me out to be the scapegoat when I was talked to the way I was isn't exactly the way to go about things. It's got nothing to do with the last word. You say something, I reply. That's how it works. I was being told what my real intentions were by people who have never met me, and I was treated with inferiority and I responded to that.

And I still stand by the fact if this is a once time gig, you have to rent equipment, it is your wife's boss, and you have no interest in further pursuing wedding photography - it honestly is best in your interest to just courteously bow out and enjoy the wedding as a guest, if at all.
Sorry, but you don't know what my best interests are.

lets not play the 1 up card

, that's some way to not play the one up card. You're something else man.

And it's some mystery as to why I'm on the defense in this thread lol.

Feb 24, 2013 at 07:30 AM

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p.3 #11 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Daboyle wrote:
When emotions and money are involved, you can never guarantee how others will act in those situations, esp seeing as you do not know the bride at all. Some of the seemingly best clients have ended up being nightmares and some of the expected worst ones have been the smoothest. You cant read a book by the cover, although trust me, I wish you could in this line of work. You just have to step back and say ok, would it be worth it to me to dive into this situation with what could *potentially* go wrong - and only you can make that ultimate decision.

So then fill me in here. What is the worst thing that has ever happened to you by shooting a wedding.

Feb 24, 2013 at 07:35 AM

Robin Usagani
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p.3 #12 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Ballistics, if I could go back in time, I would have gone back and smack my self really hard. What was I doing shooting wedding with ONE camera (T1i), 50mm 1.4, 70-200 f/2.8 IS. Anything could have gone wrong. First of all 50mm was awfully long for a crop sensor. My 50mm could have been dropped and I am stuck with 70-200. My camera could have crapped out and I am stuck with an iphone. My flash could have stopped working and I would not have a flash. On the top of all of these, I did not have an insurance!

But at the end the risk I took paid off. Now wedding photography is a significant chunk of my overall income. To really be prepared and have everything you need to shoot a wedding is a long process. It would require you to do a lot of second shooting first, do maybe family portraits first and establish your company. Many people do that process before they shoot the first wedding. There were also many like me who took a big risk. Some were successful and some fell short. Those who fell short, some were lucky they didn't get sued. Feel free to check out my first wedding I shot

Feb 24, 2013 at 02:36 PM

julieawhitlock
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p.3 #13 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Ballistics wrote:
julieawhitlock wrote:
The fact that this is your wifes boss would scare me. What if you totally blow it? That's a very awkward situation. I think I'd pick something less close to home!

That's something that she would have to worry about in the end. I've already established to her personally that I have no experience in wedding photography and that the pictures I take in a studio is nothing close to event photography.

Why not offer to help them find a good wedding photographer instead.

Because I'm not the one getting married. And just because I take pictures, doesn't mean that I am a scout for other photographers.

You can tell people until you are blue in the face and contract it as well. You can write in the contract that you guarantee nothing better than the quality of a button pushing money on roller skates. They will still be very upset if the wedding is botched. Maybe they won't sue you but it doesn't mean those bad feelings won't be there. When people think they are getting a bargain they see and hear what they want to. I guarantee in the back of their minds they are still expecting you to rock it out. Helping them find another photographer is your graceful way out of this.

Feb 24, 2013 at 02:58 PM

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p.3 #14 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Do the wedding. You've made it clear that no one will care and there will be no consequences if you do it. So why not. You've also shown you're willing to work for pennies because that's why they chose you in the first place. You're even willing to pay out of your own pocket by wanting to rent equipment for this wedding. Just do it and let me know how it goes. I'm genuinely curious to see how a studio photographer adapts their technique to photographing in the field. And the couple is right, they want anyone and they want it cheap. Better to go with someone who has some photographic experience and they know they'll be able to easily contact than someone with no experience whatsoever who may disappear off the grid.

Feb 24, 2013 at 03:08 PM

kwhaley29
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p.3 #15 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Robin Usagani wrote:

Also, I do have experience with bad wedding photos. I have the worst wedding photos. Just think how awkward it is going to be for your wife if her boss feels the same way about her wedding photos.

http://usagani.com/p150384214

Robin, those aren't bad at all. The direct flash creates a nice shadow in every image which gives each one that 3-D effect that people so desperately crave!

FWIW our photos weren't much better.

Feb 24, 2013 at 03:27 PM

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p.3 #16 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

swoop wrote:
Do the wedding. You've made it clear that no one will care and there will be no consequences if you do it. So why not. You've also shown you're willing to work for pennies because that's why they chose you in the first place. You're even willing to pay out of your own pocket by wanting to rent equipment for this wedding. Just do it and let me know how it goes. I'm genuinely curious to see how a studio photographer adapts their technique to photographing in the field. And the couple is right, they want anyone and they want it cheap. Better to go with someone who has some photographic experience and they know they'll be able to easily contact than someone with no experience whatsoever who may disappear off the grid.

I think it's crazy how manipulative some of you people are. Enough with the mob mentality and the twisted points.
I didn't say that I was willing to work for pennies.
I didn't say I'm willing to pay out of pocket for anything.

Feb 24, 2013 at 04:08 PM

Ballistics
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p.3 #17 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

julieawhitlock wrote:
Ballistics wrote:
julieawhitlock wrote:
The fact that this is your wifes boss would scare me. What if you totally blow it? That's a very awkward situation. I think I'd pick something less close to home!

That's something that she would have to worry about in the end. I've already established to her personally that I have no experience in wedding photography and that the pictures I take in a studio is nothing close to event photography.

Why not offer to help them find a good wedding photographer instead.

Because I'm not the one getting married. And just because I take pictures, doesn't mean that I am a scout for other photographers.

You can tell people until you are blue in the face and contract it as well. You can write in the contract that you guarantee nothing better than the quality of a button pushing money on roller skates. They will still be very upset if the wedding is botched. Maybe they won't sue you but it doesn't mean those bad feelings won't be there. When people think they are getting a bargain they see and hear what they want to. I guarantee in the back of their minds they are still expecting you to rock it out. Helping them find another photographer is your graceful way out of this.

Again, these bad feelings are not effecting my decision one bit. If someone 3 degrees removed is disappointed with a product that I undersold the entire time that's on them. Don't get me wrong, I would try my best and I will tell them that. But my best isn't good to begin with.

Feb 24, 2013 at 04:15 PM

Ballistics
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p.3 #18 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

Robin Usagani wrote:
Ballistics, if I could go back in time, I would have gone back and smack my self really hard. What was I doing shooting wedding with ONE camera (T1i), 50mm 1.4, 70-200 f/2.8 IS. Anything could have gone wrong. First of all 50mm was awfully long for a crop sensor. My 50mm could have been dropped and I am stuck with 70-200. My camera could have crapped out and I am stuck with an iphone. My flash could have stopped working and I would not have a flash. On the top of all of these, I did not have an insurance!

But at the end the risk I took paid off. Now wedding photography is a significant chunk of my overall income. To really be prepared and have everything you need to shoot a wedding is a long process. It would require you to do a lot of second shooting first, do maybe family portraits first and establish your company. Many people do that process before they shoot the first wedding. There were also many like me who took a big risk. Some were successful and some fell short. Those who fell short, some were lucky they didn't get sued. Feel free to check out my first wedding I shot

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/949857

Also, I do have experience with bad wedding photos. I have the worst wedding photos. Just think how awkward it is going to be for your wife if her boss feels the same way about her wedding photos.

http://usagani.com/p150384214

I'm not planning on shooting weddings as a career, but here's a question for you. If I showed them your "bad" wedding album and they were ok with that quality of photography, what would you say then?

Edit: As far as your first wedding, I think you did a really good job. And your wedding photos match my wedding photos. My photographer butchered my whole wedding. I will confidently say that I wouldn't be that bad.

Feb 24, 2013 at 04:21 PM

julieawhitlock
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p.3 #19 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

I'd say if you showed them the results of what they could expect and they said they were fine with that then fair dues.

Feb 24, 2013 at 04:46 PM

Ballistics
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p.3 #20 · Being asked to shoot a wedding when you aren't a wedding photographer

julieawhitlock wrote:
I'd say if you showed them the results of what they could expect and they said they were fine with that then fair dues.

I think that If I show them awful work and they accept, I don't have much to worry about.

Feb 24, 2013 at 04:56 PM

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