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Archive 2013 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

carstenw
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

kewlcanon wrote:
You can search the web if you want to know. My comment is not directed specifically to Maeda, it's just general suggestion not to belittle anybody that has been in the industry for a while.

I am not interested in knowing, I am interested in knowing whether you know...

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:34 PM

kewlcanon
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

I know now don't ask me what they are..if you do..read my previous post.

carstenw wrote:
I am not interested in knowing, I am interested in knowing whether you know...

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:37 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

philip_pj wrote:
I wonder aloud whether it it is ever going to be possible to omit the deification of the Jobs fellow, I mean I know a lot of people here have a (to me unhealthy) regard for this character but it is not too late to get over it.

Then why don't you get over it

Two comments: a straight answer would be no, probably not. He took a failed and limping company from the edge of collapse and built it into the most valuable company on earth today, releasing loads of well-loved products, in the process making many of the formerly greatest companies on earth look like blithering idiots with no clue. Was everything perfect, no of course not. Was he a great guy? Depends strongly on who you were. Did he do everything right, clearly not. But his achievement still stands. No one else to my knowledge has done something like this, on this scale. Not even close.

I question your choice of the word "deification". I don't deify him, and don't know anyone who does. But he is clearly a great example of exactly what we are discussing, and I have gotten a lot of enjoyment from his company's products in the past.

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:38 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

philip_pj wrote:
Maeda, assuming you do not refer to the fine mini cranes but the guy named John Maeda, I checked out a talk he gave, or perhaps I should say:

I kinda like turned on my computer, you have one of those too I guess, anyway I kinda found my way to his er, like, talk video, and I like listened a little and I was like, uh, wow.

He struck me as a modern day, gen Y friendly charlatan specialising in self promotion and new age design snake oil. Nice linen coat though, if a little (OK, a lot) metrosexual. He...Show more →

Masaya Maeda, Managing Director and Chief Executive, Image Communication Products Operations at Canon.

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:41 PM

kewlcanon
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

..and he started NeXT..what happened ?.

carstenw wrote:
Then why don't you get over it

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:42 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

kewlcanon wrote:
I know now don't ask me what they are..if you do..read my previous post.

I looked, and see only interviews with him. He appears to come from a video background and is an engineer, but I don't see any record of anything he has done since 1975, other than being a manager. Got a link?

Apparently in 2011 Canon had 44% of the DSLR market, and in 2012 they had 27%. I don't know whether to trust those numbers fully, but again they are based on these same reports.

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:48 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

kewlcanon wrote:
..and he started NeXT..what happened ?.

It failed on its own, but succeeded in getting bought by Apple, and the rest was history. When was it ever wrong for someone to have a failure before a success?

Look, I don't know why we are even discussing this any more. You present point after point, and as I find source material to refute them you move onto other, ever more vague and less relevant points. Just stop.

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:51 PM

Access
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

I think of this as mostly a regional thing.

Where I live, I am in a major photo club (70+ active members) and besides that, my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances, there are roughly several a year who are trying to get into photography more seriously.

And invariably, it always begins with buying a DSLR. None of the newcomers are embracing the mirrorless platform. It just doesn't happen. I can only think of two photographers I know irl who use them besides myself.

I know in the east DSLR is dying off and being replaced with mirrorless. You can see this with the new sales figures. But here in the west, I think if mirrorless was going to take over, it already would have. IMO if something is going to displace the DSLR here, mirrorless is not it (maybe the next thing, whatever that is?)

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:51 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

Europe is in between the two extremes, FWIW, probably a bit closer to the States.

Feb 01, 2013 at 05:52 PM

kewlcanon
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

Yeah and why did he fail ?. He's just human...he's not going to be successful all the time just because his name is Steve Jobs. There are a lot of factors just being a leader. All you said was Maeda is an org chart filler

. I think you might want to think before you criticized anybody think about what have you contributed so far to the industry ?

.

carstenw wrote:
It failed on its own, but succeeded in getting bought by Apple, and the rest was history. When was it ever wrong for someone to have a failure before a success?

Look, I don't know why we are even discussing this any more. You present point after point, and as I find source material to refute them you move onto other, ever more vague and less relevant points. Just stop.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:01 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

kewlcanon wrote:
Yeah and why did he fail ?. He's just human...he's not going to be successful all the time just because his name is Steve Jobs. There are a lot of factors just being a leader. All you said was Maeda is an org chart filler

. I think you might want to think before you criticized anybody think about what have you contributed so far to the industry ?

.

Here we go again: I criticised some guy in some company who nobody (?) knows has ever done anything at all other than a few interviews, and preventing the guy below him from moving up. You criticised possibly the most successful businessman ever, implicitly, and for no good reason. I never said that he was god, I never said that he is going to be successful all the time, I never said anything else, just that he did alright by Apple. I didn't even bring him into this discussion, and IMO he doesn't belong here.

In fact, I didn't criticise Maeda-san, I just said that there was no content in his interview, which is true. You cannot learn what Canon thinks from these interviews. You cannot learn the truth from these interviews. The only thing you can learn from them is what Canon wants to say publicly (notably: whether it is actually true or not), and possibly something about Canon's current strategy.

Even more funny, if your stabbing around drunkenly in the dark with a very dull knife isn't funny enough, is that this reference was brought in to show that Canon knows what they are doing in the mirrorless market, yet in this very interview, Maeda-san admits that the EOS-M wasn't as successful as they hoped

This apparently got completely overlooked by you.

And what I have done for the photo industry is completely irrelevant, because I don't work in it.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:06 PM

Access
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

carstenw wrote:
Even more funny, if your stabbing around drunkenly in the dark with a very dull knife isn't funny enough, is that this reference was brought in to show that Canon knows what they are doing in the mirrorless market, yet in this very interview, Maeda-san admits that the EOS-M wasn't as successful as they hoped

This apparently got completely overlooked by you.
Yeah, EOS-M was dead on arrival, but that was too be expected.

The big DSLR sellers (Canon, Nikon) both had reasons to fail when it comes to mirrorless. And so of course that they did. If the product had been a true DSLR-killer it would have been shot down by corporate before it ever saw the light of day.

If there are winners for mirrorless it will be the ones that have no real stake in the current DSLR systems. That is always what happens, few companies are run with the principle that "it is better to outdate yourself rather than have someone else do it for you".

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:19 PM

zhangyue
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

Access wrote:
And invariably, it always begins with buying a DSLR. None of the newcomers are embracing the mirrorless platform. It just doesn't happen. I can only think of two photographers I know irl who use them besides myself.

I believe that is difference between iphone and camera businees. Iphone is the one and single one enough to flip the phone industry.(well, its apps helped) A single camera body won't. We need a whole system to be able to do that. With more mature with the system, ie more lens, it will change. That is why I am so disappointed with NEX lens map as they really aim P&S and low end DSLR market than higher end DSLR right now. It might make sense for them from market point of view.

Of course the system can't be thrive with adapting classic manual lens on it like most people do here

Most of my friends don't know NEX or Fuji. But now almost all my family members or friends who seek advise from me for system purchased NEX, and they are all happy with it. and my father dump his DSLR for NEX7. Most people choose DSLR default is not because of it is better but they know noting better, which is not a surprise given it's (DSLR) dominance during past half decade.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:28 PM

kewlcanon
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

Are you a lawyer ?. So what EOS-M is not successful, it's not like every Canon product was successful. Not every Apple product is successful.

So your job is irrelevant, are you 'armchair photography analyst' ?

.

carstenw wrote:
Even more funny, if your stabbing around drunkenly in the dark with a very dull knife isn't funny enough, is that this reference was brought in to show that Canon knows what they are doing in the mirrorless market, yet in this very interview, Maeda-san admits that the EOS-M wasn't as successful as they hoped

This apparently got completely overlooked by you.

And what I have done for the photo industry is completely irrelevant, because I don't work in it.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:31 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

Access wrote:
The big DSLR sellers (Canon, Nikon) both had reasons to fail when it comes to mirrorless. And so of course that they did.

The Nikon 1 system has been very successful in Japan, capturing a double-digit percentage of the mirrorless market in a very short time. It is less successful in Europe, and probably not at all in the States. The EOS-M doesn't appear to have gotten any traction, really. 2.1% in Japan, about 0% everywhere else.

We would have to know what their respective intentions were before judging them, however. If they really wanted to fight MFT and NEX, they have failed. If they wanted to stem the tide, Canon has failed and Nikon partially failed. If they wanted to stem the tide locally (we know that they consider the Japanese market disproportionately important, beyond just money numbers), then Canon failed and Nikon succeeded.

Edited on Feb 01, 2013 at 06:34 PM · View previous versions

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:32 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

kewlcanon wrote:
So your job is irrelevant, are you 'armchair photography analyst' ?

.

Of course. I am a programmer, not a pro photographer, nor a manager in a photographic company.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:33 PM

jonrock
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

thedigitalbean wrote:
The size and bulk of the 24-70 and 70-200 is partially due to the sensor to mount distance. I suspect that if this distance were reduced (as it would be on a milc) then the these kinds of lenses would get smaller.

Yes, it would be smaller but not drastically smaller. The Sony 55-210mm f4.0-6.3 that I have for my Sony NEX isn't that much smaller than a standard 55-200mm f4.0-5.6 for Nikon/Canon DSLR cameras.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:42 PM

carstenw
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

That's right, the differences are greatest for lenses which have to be designed further away from the sensor than normally desirable -- due to flange distance restrictions -- such as very wide angle lenses. Long lenses continue to be placable anywhere the designer wants, with no serious restrictions.

Edited on Feb 02, 2013 at 04:58 AM · View previous versions

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:58 PM

Access
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

carstenw I think what they wanted to do is hedge, ie. have _something_ out there to jump to in case the DSLR is substantially impacted or dies. But at the same time, not something so strong that it cannibalizes their DSLRs.

I've worked at a number of medium to larger companies and this is how they think. Cover your @$$ and avoid risk. Most of them, at least. No one in management ever gets fired for being conservative or doing things by the book.

Having been through this product development process many times where corporate or marketing deals with this very issue, I can imagine Kodak did the same thing with film/digital at some point too (saw the threat it posed and pulled back from it).

I do hope mirrorless catches on here but often I think that is hoping for too much.
Also I'd like to see some different form factors in mirrorless. I remember some of the radical form factors we had for compact prosumer around 2003 timeframe. To me, mirrorless form factor seems downright uninspired. It's either 'DSLR-like', 'the box', or some minor variation of 'the box'.

Feb 01, 2013 at 06:59 PM

mordicai
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · A prediction for camera industry for discuss here Alt board

John Meada is running Canon Camera into the ground. He has no creative vision and is Not an innovator. To compare him to Steve Jobs is just plain dumb.

Feb 01, 2013 at 10:20 PM

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