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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples
  
 
rscheffler
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p.15 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Ron, OK, I take my comments back and maybe I was too quick to make those earlier statements because I was expecting the same type of behavior when we associate Leica with these expensive brands (snobbishness, rudeness, etc of Hermes or LV stores). I do agree, Leica need these type of well heeled customers and maybe a Leica store in Boston would be great so that I could try out gear locally.


I suspect the store to store experience might vary. Andrew G, I think, mentioned to me that he didn't share the same experience visiting some of the asian Leica stores. But then in HK or Tokyo, there are literally so many other Leica options. Has anyone been to the one in DC?

I think the Munich store is a company store, and the atmosphere there is definitely not one that pushes you to make a purchase. I believe they encourage 'tire kicking' because even if you don't buy the camera or lens there, you'll buy it somewhere and Leica still benefits.

Interestingly, even Canon sees some value in this approach. You may have read about their Canon Experience Centre in Calgary (maybe Ryan or Gary can give us a user review on this ). With so much moving online, potential customers are finding it very difficult to make informed decisions about very expensive purchases. And Canon needs a way to demo their higher-end printing solutions to businesses. I wouldn't be surprised to see more companies do this. I guess Sony has had their stores already for a long time...



Feb 26, 2013 at 12:00 AM
zhangyue
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p.15 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


rscheffler wrote:
I suspect the store to store experience might vary. Andrew G, I think, mentioned to me that he didn't share the same experience visiting some of the asian Leica stores. But then in HK or Tokyo, there are literally so many other Leica options. Has anyone been to the one in DC?

I think the Munich store is a company store, and the atmosphere there is definitely not one that pushes you to make a purchase. I believe they encourage 'tire kicking' because even if you don't buy the camera or lens there, you'll buy it somewhere and Leica still benefits.
...Show more

Ron, I was in one store sell Leica in China, that is not for photographer. PERIOD. The same feeling once you enter LV, Hermes etc.. in China. You will know it once you were there

I am sure Leica will sell a lot more camera and lens by doing business this way. That is a good market decision for them, at least that what their money comes from.





Feb 26, 2013 at 01:23 AM
Ajay C
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p.15 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


I've been to the Munich store quite a few times, and it probably is the 'friendliest' Leica store I've ever been to. I bought an APO 1.4x extender for my Telyt 280/4, and they wanted to buy back the Telyt! And Leica Singapore store, while not bad, was stone cold till I told 'em that I shot with an M9 and had a few Leica lenses.

rscheffler wrote:
I think the Munich store is a company store, and the atmosphere there is definitely not one that pushes you to make a purchase. I believe they encourage 'tire kicking' because even if you don't buy the camera or lens there, you'll buy it somewhere and Leica still benefits.




Feb 26, 2013 at 03:48 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.15 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Edward, the quieter shutter is not meant to only sneak up on you but also in other situations such as in a wedding reception when the bride and groom are exchanging vows, an operating theater, a religious event, a corporate event where all eyes are on the speaker, or say classical music concerts or even school events. I've shot in all of the above situations and I can tell you the M9 shutter is still too loud to let proceedings go unnoticed. A quieter shutter would definitely help, at least for me.



Yes, you're absolutely right. I even read somewhere that a still photographer on movie sets was unable to use the M9 because of the loud shutter. He normally used the quiet film Ms.



Feb 26, 2013 at 04:29 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.15 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Edward, I think in your case, its easy enough to buy a new M240 every other year

Partly one of the reasons I gave up on film as a daily shooter was also the cost. I went on a "film only" vacation in 2011 and came back with nice memories and wonderful pictures, but the cost and time alone to process and scan the negatives on that one week trip could buy me a new digital camera, so I can imagine how you could spend $4k on film in a single year.



I also do not think in terms of getting my money back, even though if it happens, I won't really mind

There are many much more expensive hobbies out there.

A friend of mine plays golf. He spends between 5000$ to 10000$ a year only on green fees, caddies, transportation. This does not include his golf equipment and accessories, that theoretically he can still re-sell.

Compared to that, photography is not so expensive, especially that whatever gear I buy, I can sell it again with 25-30% loss.



Feb 26, 2013 at 04:35 AM
thrice
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p.15 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


The rebadged 'Leicasonic' cameras have final assembly and QC in Germany, come with two years international warranty and include a copy of lightroom.

Also, if it were up to me there would be a stronger drive to entice young buyers into Leica, but they can only pursue so many avenues

And lastly, as for what Leica have planned, let's just say it's very exciting and shows they are definitely serious about photographers and not just the affluent status-seekers.



Feb 26, 2013 at 07:12 AM
thrice
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p.15 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Yes, you're absolutely right. I even read somewhere that a still photographer on movie sets was unable to use the M9 because of the loud shutter. He normally used the quiet film Ms.


There is no way any director would let any camera be fired between takes. Sounds like a bit of an urban myth.

I shot promo on a set and it was ALL staged and between takes.



Feb 26, 2013 at 07:14 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
Interesting. And fair enough, these people shouldn't consider the M240. Nor a rangefinder camera for that matter. Imagine getting fully invested into Leica glass expecting them to manufacture a camera system unlike their forte or tradition. Insanity.


This is what would have been needed to fulfil the promise of a solution for R lens users, IMO. They fell short, which annoys me. I am normally a Leica backer, and even am now, but the M240 gets to the 80-90% mark and gets stuck there.

thrice wrote:
No it didn't go up. In Australia I paid significantly more than that for my M9.


Okay, I had forgotten that M9 prices were so insane. When it came out here it was only a bit more than an M8. Anyway, the M9 is no longer in the lineup, and the M-E is, right?

All I can say is the marketing and product design direction and positioning Leica have adopted is yielding huge profits. Leica putting in their own stores has increased business in surrounding dealers noticeably. One dealer I look after installed an in-store boutique and Leica sales more than doubled. The strategy is sound, and is proving itself in tough market conditions. Photography purist might not like it, but the majority of customers do.

Agreed, I don't argue with their current success, only the extrapolation of it past questionable choices.

I know the M6 is great in dimensions and I miss mine. The new M body is 0.5mm (you know how little that is right?) thicker, not due to the thumb wheel.

I know that is very little. I doubt I could tell unless I had both camera in front of me to feel. But it is undoubtedly the wrong direction. Everyone I know who has owned an M6 or earlier has lamented the chubbiness of the digi-Ms.

There is a lot on the distant horizon to make everyone happy, maybe even you Carsten. If the M240 does not tick enough boxes, maybe wait for the next product.

I recall my time with the M8 with fondness, and was hoping that the M240 would move away from some of the problems which made me leave, but I don't see it yet. Maybe one day. I would love to own the system again, but the prices are rising higher than my pay.

Off topic and not referring to your contributions to the discussion, but one thing that amazes me is how Leica brings people who don't actually want the product out of the woodwork to comment

Just a little bit like guns or religion, everyone has an opinion about Leica.


Edited on Feb 26, 2013 at 10:06 AM · View previous versions



Feb 26, 2013 at 09:55 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
Can you give me information or an example of the M9 having problems with IR in real world shooting? If you link Digilloyd I will try and throttle you through your computer monitor


No, it wasn't from mr. Chambers I stopped that subscription when he lost his cool, and started reading like an editorial.

IIRC I took a single shot of someone in the Leica store on demo day, and the same shot with my M8, with and without filters. The M8 with filters had the blackest cloth, the M8 without the reddest, and the M9 was maybe 80-85% of the way towards the M8 with filters. That wasn't enough for me.




Feb 26, 2013 at 10:00 AM
thrice
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p.15 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
This is what would have been needed to fulfil the promise of a solution for R lens users, IMO. They fell short, which annoys me. I am normally a Leica backer, and even am now, but the M240 gets to the 80-90% mark and gets stuck there.


Are you looking for an R solution Carsten?

Okay, I had forgotten that M9 prices were so insane. When it came out here it was only a bit more than an M8. Anyway, the M9 is no longer in the lineup, and the M-E is, right?

Yes indeed.

All I can say is the marketing and product design direction and positioning Leica have adopted is yielding huge profits. Leica putting in their own stores has increased business in surrounding dealers noticeably. One dealer I look after installed an in-store boutique and Leica sales more than doubled. The strategy is sound, and is proving itself in tough market conditions. Photography purist might not like it, but the majority of customers do.

Agreed, I don't argue with their current success, only the extrapolation of it past questionable choices.

I know that is very little. I doubt I could tell unless I had both camera in front of me to feel. But it is undoubtedly the wrong direction. Everyone I know who has owned an M6 or earlier has lamented the chubbiness of the digi-Ms.

Well I'm sure it's something they're researching but it is almost impossible to fit the screen and sensor in a slimmer body. The RX1 sensor is about the same distance from the back of the camera, maybe a little less.

I recall my time with the M8 with fondness, and was hoping that the M240 would move away from some of the problems which made me leave, but I don't see it yet. Maybe one day. I would love to own the system again, but the prices are rising higher than my pay.

Which problems specifically made you leave? I cannot recall anyone in the M8 days lamenting the lack of live-view scrolling
EDIT: I see your post about M9 blacks. Was this early firmware and before Adobe colour profiles?

Did you miss where I pointed out that price dropped this generation?
The new lens prices have gone up marginally in the past year, but used prices are once again dropping.



Feb 26, 2013 at 10:06 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



carstenw
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p.15 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
Are you looking for an R solution Carsten?


Not personally, although if an R9 followup were to be released, I would be reading spec sheets until midnight. I do know a few people with nice R lens collections who have been watching the story unfold, and I feel sorry when I see that the M240 doesn't fulfil what one might expect an R successor to be capable of. So close, but not there.

EDIT: I see your post about M9 blacks. Was this early firmware and before Adobe colour profiles?

Yes it was, but as you know, IR sensitivity is not a firmware parameter. All that can be done after that is to fiddle with the colours, which will always affect the real colours.

Did you miss where I pointed out that price dropped this generation?
The new lens prices have gone up marginally in the past year, but used prices are once again dropping.


I sold my 50 Lux ASPH at almost what I bought it for new, in spite of it having gotten a small scratch on the rear element. The rest I sold at a profit, except for the M8u body itself. At the prices I sold for, I could not justify entering again. Everyone has a pain threshold, and mine is pretty high, but not Leica-high.



Feb 26, 2013 at 10:13 AM
joakim
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p.15 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


For those interested, the new Lightroom 4.4 Release Candidate and the CameraRaw 7.4 RC supports the Leica M.

Lightroom
CameraRaw



Feb 26, 2013 at 10:45 AM
rattymouse
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p.15 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Joe, I completely agree with you, but my point of view is that, in 2012 alone, I paid more than 4000$ of film and processing costs. Since I bought the M9, my costs went down to 0.00$. At this rate I can afford a new M every other year.

As for b/w, Ming Thein mentioned he really liked the tonality of the M files conversions. Nothing final yet, but a good sign.


$4000 a year on film and processing? How many rolls of film does this represent? That sounds like an enormous amount.

I find myself shooting far fewer images when I shoot film and further, the quality goes up since my effort is much higher. I shoot a lot of film, but no where near $4000 worth. For me, film is a HUGE savings over digital as long as I stop upgrading my digital gear. So far I have done pretty well with that. I have averaged at least 2 new digital cameras per year, except last year I bought only one (Fujifilm XF1).

Film is so cheap, except for slides, that I just can't imagine shooting $4000 worth. Of course, we have nasty winters here in Shanghai so part of the year I dont shoot much. Thankfully that time is almost over this year.







Feb 26, 2013 at 10:52 AM
rattymouse
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p.15 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Edward, I think in your case, its easy enough to buy a new M240 every other year

Partly one of the reasons I gave up on film as a daily shooter was also the cost. I went on a "film only" vacation in 2011 and came back with nice memories and wonderful pictures, but the cost and time alone to process and scan the negatives on that one week trip could buy me a new digital camera, so I can imagine how you could spend $4k on film in a single year.



How long are your vacations? I did a mostly film only holiday last week in Japan. I came back with 20 rolls of 120 film shot. $4X20= $80 in film costs. I shipped them off for processing for a total cost of around $100.

$180 buys one crappy digital camera.

Every day the anticipation is building for when the developed film comes back. Can't wait.



Feb 26, 2013 at 10:57 AM
rattymouse
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p.15 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Douglas, I'm also one of those who don't mind the loud shutter. In fact I'm not into taking sneaking shots and when I shoot people I want them to be fully aware of that. That is why I never understood the need for the discreet shutter noise.


Try shooting inside a Zen Temple while people are meditating. You'll quickly find your focal plane shutter camera is 100% useless. While in Korea I was in a beautiful Zen temple and was able to shoot over 100 shots without anyone even knowing I was doing so, because I had my Fuji X100, a TOTALLY silent camera.



Feb 26, 2013 at 10:59 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.15 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


rattymouse wrote:
$4000 a year on film and processing? How many rolls of film does this represent? That sounds like an enormous amount.

I find myself shooting far fewer images when I shoot film and further, the quality goes up since my effort is much higher. I shoot a lot of film, but no where near $4000 worth. For me, film is a HUGE savings over digital as long as I stop upgrading my digital gear. So far I have done pretty well with that. I have averaged at least 2 new digital cameras per year, except last year I bought only
...Show more

RM, I used to shoot 10-15 rolls a month, mostly E6. Fujichromes sell around 8-12 $ in Thailand. Add to that 12$ per roll developing and scanning at NCPS and 2 way shipping. I think the average was around 25$ per roll.

When I'm on holidays I easily shoot 3-5 rolls a day.

Just to give you an idea, I've had the M9 for exactly 5 months and I've shot around 4000 frames, eventhough I still got my film habits of shooting sparsely.



Feb 26, 2013 at 11:47 AM
rattymouse
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p.15 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
RM, I used to shoot 10-15 rolls a month, mostly E6. Fujichromes sell around 8-12 $ in Thailand. Add to that 12$ per roll developing and scanning at NCPS and 2 way shipping. I think the average was around 25$ per roll.

When I'm on holidays I easily shoot 3-5 rolls a day.

Just to give you an idea, I've had the M9 for exactly 5 months and I've shot around 4000 frames, eventhough I still got my film habits of shooting sparsely.


Yeah slide film is expensive. But Thailand is very expensive compared to China. Here in Shanghai it's about $7/roll and maybe $6 to develop it. I LOOOVE looking at medium format chromes, so the price to me is worth it.

It's only $4 to develop a roll of C41 here and maybe $4.50 to develop black and white. Plus, I get really good scans as well for those prices.

What I dont get are prints. I still have not found anywhere that prints!

You are averaging 26/shots per day with your M9. That's not sparingly by any stretch! You would be shooting a roll of film/day.



Feb 26, 2013 at 12:39 PM
wstam
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p.15 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


Hi, will you be in Singapore tomorrow? Then you can try your luck in getting a new Leica M

I got a call from a Leica shop this afternoon, telling me that new M will be available at the shop tomorrow. I can try out the new M and LIMITED STOCK WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR SALE.

I am really surprise to hear that as I have been reading about the delay till Apr. No, I will not be getting it, not so soon. Will like to play with it though but may not be able to go down next few days due to busy schedule.

Cheers.



Feb 26, 2013 at 12:51 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.15 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


rattymouse wrote:
Yeah slide film is expensive. But Thailand is very expensive compared to China. Here in Shanghai it's about $7/roll and maybe $6 to develop it. I LOOOVE looking at medium format chromes, so the price to me is worth it.

It's only $4 to develop a roll of C41 here and maybe $4.50 to develop black and white. Plus, I get really good scans as well for those prices.

What I dont get are prints. I still have not found anywhere that prints!

You are averaging 26/shots per day with your M9. That's not sparingly by any stretch! You would be shooting a
...Show more

Well, it costs around 3.5$ to process slide film in Bangkok, including a few deep scratches and spots that make your film unscannable even with IR cleaning. Hence the extra expense of sending the film to the US for processing/scanning.

As for shooting sparingly, in fact, I only shoot 5-10 frames a day, as I carry my M9 with me all the time. The high number comes from shooting travel and documentary. I took more than 1000 shot during my 4 day trip to Chiang Mai, and over 500 shot when Helimat was visiting.



Feb 26, 2013 at 01:49 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.15 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


wstam wrote:
Hi, will you be in Singapore tomorrow? Then you can try your luck in getting a new Leica M

I got a call from a Leica shop this afternoon, telling me that new M will be available at the shop tomorrow. I can try out the new M and LIMITED STOCK WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR SALE.

I am really surprise to hear that as I have been reading about the delay till Apr. No, I will not be getting it, not so soon. Will like to play with it though but may not be able to go down next few days
...Show more

Well, the local Leica importer told me they're getting a few pieces by the end of the month. Didn't hear from him yet, but since I believe it's the same company as in Singapore, maybe they will send us a few



Feb 26, 2013 at 01:52 PM
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