Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

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KirkB
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p.2 #1 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

I like 3, 6, and 10 PP best Lil.

Cormie silhouette is beautiful Lil.

PP rules are only guidelines that need to be broken once in awhile for artistic expression.

Kirk

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:03 AM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #2 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Tim Kuhn wrote:
FM Forum Rules Rules: One new topic per day Really

I think that rule has left the building. I looked for it the other day and couldn't find it, go figure

Yes you will get different points of view on these and I really don't think there is right or wrong per se.

For the first group I like 1 the best. It was close with 3 but I like the darker bg in 1.

Group 2; 6, to me looks most natural. I do love the shot overall

Group 3; the actual subject looks best in 9 but there are selection artifacts on the subject and even more so on the rocks that ruin it for me. 9 is the most detailed of the bunch and to me the whites look the best.

The bonus shot is gorgeous

There are my thoughts, take them as you will

Tim

Hi there Tim,

as for the rule - - oh it's still here. Go in on one of your threads & look up top on the
left hand side & it's right there for you to see. So yes, the rule's still here.

I agree - I don't think there's a right or wrong. I think it's the Photographers Vision & Artistic choices really.

Thanks for all your feedback & comments

Lil

Karl Witt wrote:
1-4 I find all very acceptable and honestly not worth a debate on which is better or more liked, I see nothing that would sway me one way or the other.
5-7 sometimes those ultra pure bright blue/whites look a bit artificial to me
#10 over #11 for me

The last is simply beautiful

Karl

Thanks Karl

excellent thoughts

Glad you like my Cormorant

Lil

WesN wrote:
Lil,

1-4. I like the whites in #3 (looks to be less blown out), but I prefer the blues in #2 and #4. So make it #3.

5-7. I prefer the whites in #7, but prefer the warmer colors in #5 and #6. So make it #7 (but with a tweak to warm it up a bit).

9-11. These looks pretty close. I'll pick #9 as it has more contrast in the wing area.

12 - Nice.

Wes N.

Thanks for weighing in Wes

I love this - - so many excellent thoughts on this

Again - thanks for liking my Cormorant

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:05 AM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #3 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

morris wrote:
Hi Lil,

The first clearly maintains the whites best and is darn good. The face of the second has a bit more definition and it would look good on the first.

7 is my pick of the next set as it have vibrance

9, 10 and 11 all bug me as the body is too bright though if I must pick one it is 9

12 is the best of that set, oh it’s the only one and sweet!

I hope you feel better soon

Morris

Thanks Morris

for all your comments

Maybe # 1 & 2 should be combined in an HDR

I want to point out that in the 9,10 & 11 shot the whites are not blown

But I know it got hit by the sun

Glad you lie the Cormorant as well

I do like that shot

Vertigo has been very bad today. Going in for an MRI next Monday. I'm doing exercises every day to help me restore balance. It's horrible feeling like I'm in the Ocean in waves 24hrs each day.

Thanks

Lil

Ed Robertson wrote:
Super Job Lil. Ed

Thanks Ed

Lil

sritri wrote:
#1, #7 & #10. #12 is super special

Thanks so very much Shreeni,

most kind of you

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:11 AM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #4 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

eyelaser wrote:
Lil, vertigo must be contagious...I'm dizzy going back and forth amongst all the great shots. Yes there are subtle differences but all are much more than acceptable. And that last is really special. Hope your world stops spinning soon and you can get out and about.
A nice exercise and I'm sure you found what appeals to your eye and that is what is truly important.
Eric

Eric I sure hope vertigo isn't contagious, though I know there's something called the Crystal sickness which has to do with the crystals in the inner ear & my mother swears it's a virus. Either way - I've really been bad today.

MRI next Monday. And yes, I'm seeing a specialist for it.

Yes, subtle differences - and very little in difference in pp.

The spinning is like waves in the Ocean.... And I fall backwards & to the left.

Yes, I now have a new idea of how to handle Golden Light.....

Thanks

Lil

KirkB wrote:
I like 3, 6, and 10 PP best Lil.

Cormie silhouette is beautiful Lil.

PP rules are only guidelines that need to be broken once in awhile for artistic expression.

Kirk

Thanks Kirk,

appreciate your feedback.

So happy you like the Cormie

& you're so very right

"PP rules are only guidelines that need to be broken once in awhile for artistic expression.

"

Exactly my thoughts

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:22 AM

surfnron
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p.2 #5 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

A nice set Lil.
Of the first four, 3 seems to have the most detail in both the whites and blacks, (DR).
In the next group, 6 has the most DR.
And in the last group, it's 9.

Ron

Jan 23, 2013 at 12:23 PM

72chevelle454
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p.2 #6 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Lil,

Just being clear, there are many times when absolute black (0) and pure white (255) are necessary in photos, only when you are trying to recover an area that has been lost and you would like to show detail is where the action comes in play, and shows you if you are out of the range 5-250 RBG. Matter a fact! in most of my photos I always include an area that is 255 black (black point), this helps for better contrast and POP! in the image. If I'm showing the detail feathers of a white egret such as you have shown in #3 image, I feel its best to keep these areas at or below 250 RBG.

With all of this being said, you will get several views depending on the persons eye and more importantly the calibration of monitor they are looking and viewing the image on.

Observe the chart below:
On the top bar at the left, If you cannot see different shades of black at positions 0, 1 and 2...
and
at the bottom right... different shades of white at 2, 1 and 0
It's time to calibrate your monitor!!!

Chad

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Jan 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM

plsand
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p.2 #7 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Hi -
Enjoyed your test - However, the first time I scored, didn't agree with anyone - Then, I woke up and used the numbers that you posted - Much better - My choices were 3 - 6 - 9 -
Thanks for the fun -
Paul

Jan 23, 2013 at 12:54 PM

72chevelle454
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p.2 #8 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

BTW Lil, I'm liking your double crested commie... Too bad you can't see the double crest

Inside joke!

Chad

Jan 23, 2013 at 12:59 PM

DonGut
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p.2 #9 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

#1, 7,9. I agree with what many have already said. However I do believe that if you isolated these you wouldn't see any difference to make a choice. Too subtle. Don

Jan 23, 2013 at 01:09 PM

Shasoc
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p.2 #10 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

I also firmly believe in The Photographer's Artistic Creative View of a shot
That makes two of us

With that in mind here are my thoughts:
1-4: Technically #3 is probably the best: sharper detail, better shadows, better whites. However my favorites is the first one because of the warmer tones and feels better to my eyes.
5-8:After a little debate between 5 and 6 I went for #5, again for its warmer tones. In # 7 the whites are un-naturally whites for that light.
8-10 definitely #8. #9 looks too contrasty (over-sharpened a bit) for that light. #10 may be technically the best.
One consideration that has to be made is how we look at the images. May be too often we look at images with our "techs" glasses try to find some technical imperfection rather than stepping back and appreciate the artistic side of an image w/o spoiling with our technical comments. Don't get me wrong. I believe it is important at first to get a "technically correct" photo, but then after that we should move into creativity. Good photographer should reproduce tones and colors with an artistic eye

Socrate

PS. The last shot has the best mood created by the warm light, the warm tones and the warm shadows.

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:50 PM

Cincy Bruce
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p.2 #11 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Lil, thanks for posting this thread. It's a great learning tool in my eyes. I still have lots to learn so I don't feel my opinion would make a huge difference here. 1, 5, & 9 catch my eyes.

I'm sure you're aware of the epley procedure. My wife is vertigo free (for now) after doing this for about a week.

Bruce

Jan 23, 2013 at 05:06 PM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #12 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

surfnron wrote:
A nice set Lil.
Of the first four, 3 seems to have the most detail in both the whites and blacks, (DR).
In the next group, 6 has the most DR.
And in the last group, it's 9.

Ron

Thanks Ron

appreciate your feedback

Lil

72chevelle454 wrote:
Lil,

Just being clear, there are many times when absolute black (0) and pure white (255) are necessary in photos, only when you are trying to recover an area that has been lost and you would like to show detail is where the action comes in play, and shows you if you are out of the range 5-250 RBG. Matter a fact! in most of my photos I always include an area that is 255 black (black point), this helps for better contrast and POP! in the image. If I'm showing the detail feathers of a white egret such as you have shown in #3 image, I feel its best to keep these areas at or below 250 RBG.

With all of this being said, you will get several views depending on the persons eye and more importantly the calibration of monitor they are looking and viewing the image on.

Observe the chart below:
On the top bar at the left, If you cannot see different shades of black at positions 0, 1 and 2...
and
at the bottom right... different shades of white at 2, 1 and 0
It's time to calibrate your monitor!!!

Chad

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Thanks for the feedback Chad

as for the chart - - my monitor passes the test with flying colors

Lil

plsand wrote:
Hi -
Enjoyed your test - However, the first time I scored, didn't agree with anyone - Then, I woke up and used the numbers that you posted - Much better - My choices were 3 - 6 - 9 -
Thanks for the fun -
Paul

Thanks Paul,

I think sometimes we need to "mull things over"

Glad you enjoyed

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:02 PM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #13 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

72chevelle454 wrote:
BTW Lil, I'm liking your double crested commie... Too bad you can't see the double crest

Inside joke!

Chad

Very funny Chad - - btw I've now got I think 3 people I'm hid from

Lil

DonGut wrote:
#1, 7,9. I agree with what many have already said. However I do believe that if you isolated these you wouldn't see any difference to make a choice. Too subtle. Don

Thanks for voicing in Don,

& I do believe you're right - isolated I don't think people would really think much of it.

I made the differences subtle not to make it too apparent so that the pp would be really different. I was/am looking for just subtle differences.

Lil

Shasoc wrote:
I also firmly believe in The Photographer's Artistic Creative View of a shot
That makes two of us

Socrate

PS. The last shot has the best mood created by the warm light, the warm tones and the warm shadows.

Thank you so very much Socrate for voicing in & your well thought through comments

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:20 PM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #14 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Cincy Bruce wrote:
Lil, thanks for posting this thread. It's a great learning tool in my eyes. I still have lots to learn so I don't feel my opinion would make a huge difference here. 1, 5, & 9 catch my eyes.

I'm sure you're aware of the epley procedure. My wife is vertigo free (for now) after doing this for about a week.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce

glad you got something out of it

I'm now checking out the epley procedure. I've been doing the Cawthorne's Vestibular Exercises for a week & since I stopped the Prednisone the other day the vertigo's worse. I've called my doctor. Don't knwo if he wants me to go back on Prednisone or what.... Anyhow I will check the epley procedure to see how it may differ from Cawthorne's Vestibular Exercises.

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:24 PM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #15 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

OK So my little project I consider done - results

if we can call them that

So lets talk about the very subtle differences in between the shots....

First up - - as for sharpening - each shot is sharpened the exact same amount. No more no less. So I find it interesting that some view certain shots as sharper.... Interesting

Secondly - the histograms in all of these shots remain within the 0 - 255 range - Important to know.

Thirdly - in all of these I've chosen to leave the white balance where the camera chose it. I had it on Automatic. I tried them by changing the WB to Daylight Sun & felt they all turned too blue. So there's no changes on these there.

OK off we go

Group # 1

# 1 which got 7 firm, but in a way 8 votes - -

In this shot I've only done the most minimal of pp. I've opened my RAW file in NX2 & basically just converted the NEF (Nikon RAW file) to a jpg. The Histogram is right in between Chad's values I believe.

What I like with this version is that the warmth of the beginning Golden Light is visible. And I personally like the shadows being shadows...

# 2 - only got 1 vote.

Now in this one I've done shadow recovery (for Chad) & set white & black points in NX2 which I personally feel does it better than CS3. But what do I know

Now this is a typical example of what I don't like to happen - - the hint of Golden Light is completely lost.

# 3 In this one I've kept the Shadow Recovery & still set black point - but only the black point.

It's very close to # 1, but it does have a slight less indication of warmth than # 1 but still the hint of Golden Light is there.

# 4 the much not liked # 4 (poor # 4) has Black & White points set & no shadow recovery.

Well that takes care of group # 1 - - my favorite.... Probably leaning towards # 3. But I do like # 1 as well.

Group # 2

OK so my little Snowy Plover resting in a footstep of a person

Cute don't you think

# 5 - - Well in this one I've set the Black Point only past the regular RAW file to JPG & sharpening.

It got 3 votes

# 6 - - OK this is the one where I've not set any points at all. This is what the camera gave me from my options. Values are right in the normal range of a histogram.

What I like about this shot is a couple of things....

It has retained well the Golden Light, yet it's just a tad lighter & feels inviting & if you look really really close you can actually see the brown in the eye of the Plover. Can't do that in # 5.

It got 8 votes

# 7 - - Well what can I say about this photo. Seems it got liked a lot - 7 votes

Well to me it's lost the hint of Golden Light I know it was in. I set both Black & White Points in this one & I think this is the one people thought I'd sharpened more - - nope....

To me this shot is very "clean" etc, but the warmth is gone due to the white point. I guess if I really wanted to I could tone that down.

In this group my choice goes to # 6

Group # 3

# 8

Again - just simple RAW to JPG conversion & then I set the Black Point in this one. It has retained the hint of Golden Light and I feel the body of the bird just draws my eye to it

Sorry Morris I know you think the shot in all versions is too bright - - bird has a white tummy & the sun just hit it

Got 2 votes

# 9

Well this one got 13 votes - - This one also has Black Point set, but in this one I used NIK Tools which I really don't like to do with Bird photos. They easily look fake to me. But in this instance it turned out OK. It gives the bird more modeling etc.

# 10

Well this one I used Shadow Recovery in - but personally I think it brightens the shot way too much. Also, I fell that in this rather "moody" shot I want the bird to PoP & when using Shadow Recovery, far too many other things pop up. No Black nor White points in this one. Still it got 4 votes

# 11

With just 1 vote this one has both Black & White Points set however no Shadow Recovery. My complaint - - no hint of the Golden Light I went out to capture.

In this group my top pick is # 9, but if the NIK Tools had not worked out I would have presented # 8.

and now to my Silhouette Cormorant (with) slightly visible double crests

in a Golden Light lake.....

I really appreciate the 12 comments I got on it. Here I wasn't sure if it was too artistic for the forum & it gets all these comments

See what I know

So what have I learned from this - - Experiment with my PP - find where I & my eye feel comfortable & "invited" into the photo. Where I feel it really represents what I want it to or reflects what I saw. Make several versions & pick if so. Don't stick like "glue" to any rules etc. Guidelines are just that - guidelines - nothing etched in stone.

If it was, well then there wouldn't be Cinematographers & Cinematographers....

Thanks for doing this with me

Lil

Jan 23, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Rob Tillyer
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p.2 #16 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Nice work Lil, I feel like I just took a test

Jan 23, 2013 at 11:53 PM

Major_K
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p.2 #17 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Great post Lil!

Of the three group, excluding the last image, my picks are #3, #6, and #9. I tend to like the warmer side of thing.

Khai

P.S. Hahaha, I did not read your analysis after I posted the picks. At least I'm aligned with you.

Jan 24, 2013 at 12:14 AM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #18 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Rob Tillyer wrote:
Nice work Lil, I feel like I just took a test

Karl is wrong 1 through 4 have real differences to me 1 being my chose.
#5 is my preference in the next group.
I don't have a preference in the next group but I really like the last shot, beauty colour.

Rob

Thanks Rob,

Thanks for voicing in - I'd just written my comments so they're just above your post. And it's not a test, well it is - on how you perceive colors etc.

Glad you can see differences where Karl can't

Lil

Major_K wrote:
Great post Lil!

Of the three group, excluding the last image, my picks are #3, #6, and #9. I tend to like the warmer side of thing.

Khai

P.S. Hahaha, I did not read your analysis after I posted the picks. At least I'm aligned with you.

Thanks Khai,

glad you enjoyed it

It was a good exercise for me

glad we aligned in picks

Lil

Jan 24, 2013 at 01:11 AM

Lance B
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p.2 #19 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

An interesting series and I like your question as this sort of thing rarley gets put up for discussion. All are great images in their own right and these are just my opinions for what they are worth and I'm no expert but at the end of the day, it is your image and you have to look at it. The interesting thing is everybody's opinions are different and yet none are wrong and none are right.

1-4: a great shot all round

1 = is a good balance and very natural looking
2 = is just a little more blown in the whites and less natural looking as I think at that time of day the light would be more yellow rather than the slight blue that is evident in the image. In isoltion it is good, but when compared to the others is not as good, IMO.
3 = is also a good balance and natural looking but when compared to 1 it is just not quite as good, IMO.
4 = is also a good balance, probably the best out of the bunch.

All are excellent in isolation, but when given a comparison, I pick number 4, although it's a toss up between it and number 1.

5-7: a lovely shot all round

5 = Probably a bit too yellow for me
6 = a tad better, but atill a tad too yellow for me
7 = a better colour balance, but possibly still a bit too accurate

I pick 7 as it is more natural, but I would probably like it somewhere between 6 & 7.

8-11: again, in isolation they are all great but when given a comparison...

8 = the wing on the left (birds right) is a little less detailed than the other shots, body a little more blown
9 = much better feather detail under the left wing (birds right) but the body is too contrasty and looks a little unnatural
10 = very good balance of left wing detail and body detail and exposure, best WB reflecting the slight yellow tinge of afternoon light
11 = very good balance of left wing detail and body detail and exposure, but the WB is more neutral not really reflecting the afternoon/morning light.

For me it is number 10.

The silhouette is great, love the orange water! Glad you didn't do a 3 way post process on that one and ask us for opinions!

Jan 24, 2013 at 01:27 AM

Lil Judd
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p.2 #20 · Final Thoughts - Golden Light, Whites - PP Woos.....

Lance B wrote:
An interesting series and I like your question as this sort of thing rarley gets put up for discussion. All are great images in their own right and these are just my opinions for what they are worth and I'm no expert but at the end of the day, it is your image and you have to look at it. The interesting thing is everybody's opinions are different and yet none are wrong and none are right.

Lance - thanks for your comments.

Always fun to see how we all see things differently.

Just want to make sure you know - - in none of these photos are the highlight blown. They were all shot in light Golden Light & actually should reflect that to a certain degree.

Thanks

Lil

Jan 24, 2013 at 11:09 PM

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