6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

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alexdi
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p.2 #1 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Mashuto wrote:
RobDickinson - Thanks for the information, it sounds like the difference between full frame and crop will be noticeable. Sounds like I can expect better sharpness, color rendition and depth of the images, which of course is a main reason why I am considering the upgrade.

Not if you end up with a 17-40, and not if you ever decide to go wider than 14mm. The 10-22 is better than the 17-40 and Sigma's 8-16 is better than their 12-24. I'd put the 16-35 against the 10-22, but you'll be paying twice as much.

I moved from a 50D/10-22 to a 5D II/17-40. And then sold the 17-40. Yes, you do miss the extra millimeter. And then I bought a Samyang. And sold that too, brilliant optics aside, when it turned out to be a pain in the ass to use.

What you gain with the 6D is at least 2 stops of noise and much more flexibility to beat on the picture in raw even at low ISOs. That's worth something. The move isn't a bad idea, just expect to buy that 16-35.

Dec 31, 2012 at 04:57 AM

Mashuto
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p.2 #2 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

alexdi - now those were my exact concerns. However, at the same time, it seems like there are plenty of photographers who get along just fine with the 17-40. And I find it a little hard to imagine that so many landscape shooters would be shooting full frame with an inferior lens. And although I am concerned about this too, in practice am I really going to notice that much of a difference losing that 1mm at the end? Clearly there are some trade offs here with either the price or performance, but wouldnt the performance upgrade to FF be worth trading that extra mm?

Dec 31, 2012 at 02:41 PM

alexdi
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p.2 #3 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

First point of note: not everyone is shooting the same 17-40. I've found wide sample variation among Canon's L zooms. A 17-40 that isn't decentered performs very well. At f/11, the extreme corners, roughly 800x600 pixels on a 5D II (0.5 MP each), lose a bit of resolution and contrast. They'd still hold up to a large print. At f/4, about 1000x1000 in each corner is noticeably blurry even viewed at 25% zoom.

So yes, stopped down for landscapes, there isn't much to complain about.

The 16-35 will hold those extreme corners at wider apertures and focuses closer (9" vs. 11"). The 16-35 is also a better event lens, and I care about that. My walkaround kit is a portrait prime and an ultrawide. F/4 is slow for that. With f/2.8, I can replace something like the 50/1.4, which I tend to shoot at f/2 anyway.

The extra millimeter is noticeable. If the lens was solely for stopped-down landscapes, I'd look very hard at Sigma's 12-24/4.5-5.6 II. Contrast, edge performance, flare, and flexibility all suffer relative the 17-40, but the results at 12mm can be spectacular. I don't own one because, as above, I want a walkaround.

A dark horse in all this is Tokina's 16-28. It's big, heavy, doesn't take filters, and flares more than either Canon lens, but it is f/2.8, 16mm, and with better edge performance than both. I opted for the 16-35 because weight and flare matter to me more than pristine edges. The Tokina costs about 50% less.

To come back to full-frame: the 16-35 will give similar performance to the 10-22 at the same apertures. You won't gain much in resolution. Maybe 20% overall. But as before, full-frame gives you more post-processing flexibility, far better noise, and whatever semi-tangible qualities people ascribe to the tonality of larger pixels. If you're shooting stars all the time and messing with the exposures, that's worth something.

Dec 31, 2012 at 05:13 PM

boingyman
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p.2 #4 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

I'm in a similiar situation as you are and will have some decisions to make when I jump to FF.

The 16-35 vs 17-40 decision can be a hard one when budget comes to play, expecially since thd 17-40 will likely meet more than 75% of your UWA needs. On a good note it does take 77mm filters if that means anything to you. Also if you shop smart and don't mind used/refurb/waiting for a supersale you could just get the 17-40 and sell it later with little to no loss if you do decide to get the 16-35.

Not sure if you already mentioned this, but do you plan on keeping your 60D as a backup?

Dec 31, 2012 at 06:19 PM

Mashuto
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p.2 #5 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

As much as I would like the 2.8, it is not as important to me. I do shoot events on occasion, but I shoot with a friend who has faster lenses, and with the improved ISO performance, I think I can probably live with f/4 when needed, even if corner performance is not great at that aperture.

For most of what I will be shooting, I will be stopped down to f/8 or f/11. And this lens certainly will not be my walkaround lens. I was planning on getting the kit with the 24-105 for that.

Being able to use filters is also very important to me. I have a set of Lee filters right now that I absolutely love using and would not want to build a new camera kit without the ability to use those on my wide angle lens.

As I see it, with importance to me, the pros of the 16-35 are:
-faster, f/2.8 which is of mild interest to me but not a deciding factor
-wider, 1 extra mm, although since I am used to crop frame its more like half (or .6 extra mm). While noticeable, may not be nearly enough of a deciding factor
-sharper. Maybe a bit sharper wide open, but stopped down probably the same as the 17-40.
The Cons:
-Cost... its double the price of the 17-40 and that price difference is a big deal to me, makes the upgrade easier to swallow and allows me to have some extra money for accessories, etc.
-82mm diameter. This is kind of a pain as it would require new filters and new adapters. Extra cost on top of the already very high cost.

So for most of my purposes, it seems like the 17-40 will be able to equal or possibly surpass my 10-22, if for no other reason than its on a full frame system and the benefits the full frame system will provide. Of course I will miss that 1mm at the wide end, but for me, is that 1mm reason enough to spend twice as much on a lens?

There are still of course the other benefits. I was able to use the camera at my local shop yesterday for about 10 minutes. The camera felt great to hold, and as solid as my 60D felt, the 6D just felt more solid and a bit better. The viewfinder was bigger and nicer. I took some pictures with it to compare to my 60D on my 70-200 at 200 and even though the subject filled more of the screen on the 60D, the quality was definitely better on the 6D, although that was from looking at 100% crops, but even my girlfriend said she could see the difference.

alex, not trying to dispute what you are saying, just trying to see if it really applies directly to me and whether its important enough to base this decision off of, as it stands, I am still not 100% convinced about upgrading to full frame, its a lot of money and so far I am basing it off what I see, but again, having never used full frame or the equipment I am considering, its hard to know whether its really worth it.

boingyman - sorry didnt see your post while I was posting. Yes the decision between the two is tough, and I am nearly convinced I am ready to upgrade to full frame, but I do have reservations.

About keeping the 60D, probably not. I would like to, but I am not sure my budget allows for it. Although with the price difference between the 17-40 and the 16-35, it might become more of an option...

Dec 31, 2012 at 06:19 PM

alexdi
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p.2 #6 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Here's what the 17-40 looks like, full-res, on a 5D II, converted from raw:

f/4: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/163210/share/photo/1740_17_4_5D2.jpg

f/8: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/163210/share/photo/1740_17_8_5D2.jpg

This particular copy is decentered. The right side is representative of the breed, the left isn't. If you buy a used copy, watch for this.

Just to throw in an outlier for a sharpness comparison, here's Sigma's 8-16, also full-res on a 5D II:

f/8: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/163210/share/photo/816_16_8_5D2.jpg

Dec 31, 2012 at 06:30 PM

Gochugogi
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p.2 #7 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

alexdi wrote:

This particular copy is decentered. The right side is representative of the breed, the left isn't. If you buy a used copy, watch for this.

I've owned several Canon zooms with decentering problems and, oddly, each time it was the left side. Decentering is normally an easy fix with a trip or two to Canon Service. My 70-200 4L became decentered after a couple years of light use, so elements can drift out (no drops or bangs). Strangely my 17-40L is perfectly aligned and is of ancient 2003 vintage.

Dec 31, 2012 at 06:47 PM

alexdi
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p.2 #8 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

If possible, I'd rather exchange a bad lens than to ship it to Canon. Repair is hit or miss. There's also an upper bound to what the technicians can achieve. This is illustrative:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/10/the-limits-of-variation

From that particular sample set of decentered lenses, all came back on the lower end of acceptable. None would be a standout example. I'd rather roll the dice again with a different copy.

Dec 31, 2012 at 06:55 PM

Mashuto
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p.2 #9 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Heh you guys are not making my decision any easier. Also, the lens would be purchased new. How widespread are these issues with this lens?

Dec 31, 2012 at 07:13 PM

alexdi
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p.2 #10 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

It doesn't matter if you're buying new. Amazon lets you exchange the lens three times and covers return shipping. I don't think the 17-40 is unusually prone to impact decentering. Roger alluded to the original 24-70 as one of the sole aberrations on that front.

Dec 31, 2012 at 07:30 PM

RobDickinson
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p.2 #11 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Examples from my 17-40, f11 I think, unsharpened.

Frame
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centre

lower right
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Dec 31, 2012 at 08:26 PM

Mashuto
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p.2 #12 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Well first off, the photo looks great, and since I know you are located in NZ, I am jealous and want to go back.

The center sharpness looks great, and the lower right looks great until it get to the corner, then.... well, quite unsharp and lacking in detail. Does that bother you? Just want to make sure that if I do upgrade, Ill have a lens I can use as my primary landscape lens and be just as happy if not more so than my 10-22...

Dec 31, 2012 at 09:09 PM

StillFingerz
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p.2 #13 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

I've a wonderful centered, it appears, copy of the 17-40, but the corners are not perfect sharp...get a TSE or a piece of Zeiss glass if you want that.

BTW Rob, nice images

Dec 31, 2012 at 09:52 PM

Mashuto
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p.2 #14 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Well my 10-22 is perfect sharp in the corners either, and I would not consider myself a pixel. I guess it has just been made out to seem here that the corners are really terrible on the 17-40 and... yea, just being thorough (perhaps too much so) in my decision making.

Dec 31, 2012 at 10:00 PM

marko1953
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p.2 #15 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

On keeping the 60D if you do get a 6D...you said you shoot the occasional wedding and want to do event photography. I am not sure if you mean that you would be the "main" photographer (weddings), but you must have gear back ups for a wedding if the couple are depending on you. I am sure you realise this, just that having the 2 bodies would be mandatory in case one fails at a critical moment (wedding or events). I have shot weddings with a 7D and a 5Dc. Recently sold the 7D along with the 10-22 (great lens btw) and a 17-55 2.8 IS (another great lens). But I have never been really happy with the 7D cropped sensor. The images from the old 5D just blow away the 7D. Now going full frame totally with a 5D3 and my old 5Dc.
I find the 17-40 quite good, it is soft at the edges like many on here have said, but for weddings it is fine. For landscapes I have an old olympus Zuiko 21mm 3.5 lens which works great on the 5D with an adapter.

Dec 31, 2012 at 10:33 PM

Mashuto
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p.2 #16 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

I have been shooting them with a friend, and I think we both prefer to do them together. Its easier for the both of us to have another person around, plus its a good excuse to hang out... even though we are working. I think though if the decision to go full frame is made and I decide to go for the 17-40, then the savings may be enough to convince me to keep the 60D, although I would almost certainly still need to get rid of the lenses.

And I am a bit concerned about the corner softness if it is too soft since it will be my primary landscape lens. As to a dedicated wide prime for landscapes, it seems a lot of those are manual focus or super expensive, and I do not have the desire at the moment to venture into that territory. Perhaps a bit into the future, but I really like the flexibility of my 10-22 and want something similar to be my prime landscape lens.

Jan 01, 2013 at 12:02 AM

marko1953
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p.2 #17 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Mashuto wrote:

And I am a bit concerned about the corner softness if it is too soft since it will be my primary landscape lens. As to a dedicated wide prime for landscapes, it seems a lot of those are manual focus or super expensive, and I do not have the desire at the moment to venture into that territory. Perhaps a bit into the future, but I really like the flexibility of my 10-22 and want something similar to be my prime landscape lens.

* Yes, the 17-40 is a little soft at the edges for a dedicated landscape lens, however if you stop down to f/8 you will only maybe see the softness in large prints up close.

* The flexibility of the 10-22 and the image quality is so good, that is why I held on to my 7D kit for so long.

*If you hang out in the alternative gear forum you will see great examples of the manual focus prime wide lenses for landscapes. Remember you don't need auto-focus for landscapes. A cheap way into this is to start with a $30 fotodiox adapter and an $150 Olympus Zuiko wide angle. Not nearly as expensive as some of the great names..Ziess etc but sharper than the 17-40. Good luck.

Jan 01, 2013 at 12:27 AM

RobDickinson
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p.2 #18 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Mashuto wrote:
Well first off, the photo looks great, and since I know you are located in NZ, I am jealous and want to go back.

The center sharpness looks great, and the lower right looks great until it get to the corner, then.... well, quite unsharp and lacking in detail. Does that bother you? Just want to make sure that if I do upgrade, Ill have a lens I can use as my primary landscape lens and be just as happy if not more so than my 10-22...

If you look at it yes the absolute corner is mushy, but thats perhaps an inch on a print several feet across.

Its not perfect, but thats why I own the 24tse...

Jan 01, 2013 at 12:53 AM

Mashuto
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p.2 #19 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Trying to make this decision within the next couple hours... still a little undecided. It sounds like there will be a few minor compromises choosing the 17-40, which is what I would choose, but the benefits of shooting with a full frame system may make those compromises not really matter.

marko, for my landscape shooting I am stopped down.

rob, good to know, although I would like to print larger, I am mainly doing 13x19's at home now and if the images as a whole will look better, and of course if the camera gives me even more room to learn and grow as a photographer then yea that would be good. Also, that 24 tse is at the absolute top of my wish list... and significantly out of my price range.

Jan 01, 2013 at 02:03 AM

Mashuto
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p.2 #20 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?

Well, decided to bite the bullet and jump into full frame. In the end I think it came down to the fact that I feel I will be happier shooting on this new camera in the full frame format and that should give me more motivation to get out there and shoot as often as possible as well as give me new room to grow. The 6D and a 24-105 as well as the 17-40 have been ordered. Guess its time to find a buyer for my 15-85 and figure out what I want to do with the 60D and the 10-22.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone!

Jan 01, 2013 at 02:55 AM

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