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Archive 2012 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?
  
 
Mashuto
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p.1 #1 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Sorry if this has been posted before. I did a search and didn't find exactly what I was looking for so I figured I would go ahead and post.

Basically, I am thinking about upgrading to full frame, specifically the 6D from my current 60D.

My questions arent so much about the features or the quality, etc, but whether its really worth it to upgrade. While I can afford it, its no drop in the bucket and I want to make sure that it will be worth my money.

My current kit is a 60D, EF-S 10-22, EF-S 15-85, EF 70-200 f/4L IS with a 430EXII flash. If I was to upgrade I would probably get the kit with the 24-105 and then purchase the 16-35 f/2.8 II. Having an ultra wide angle lens is important to me.

I would like to go full frame because I shoot mainly landscapes and would like to have the extra image quality offered. Having also never worked with a FF camera, I am assuming the viewfinder is bigger and probably brighter, which is appealing. Even though I set up on a tripod as often as possible and shoot at low ISOs, ISO performance is important to me since I do shoot the occasional wedding, and am hoping to expand my event shooting in the coming year or two. I also enjoy shooting the night sky when I can, and I have found the performance lacking at f/3.5 on my 10-22 and the crop sensor. I like the features the 6D has as well, such as the built in GPS (although I am a bit worried about battery performance when using it) and the fact that I think I will feel right at home with that camera upgrading from my 60D.

I am hesitant for a few reasons. It is a lot of money and it feels as though with the gear I have chosen, I will not be adding any real major features over what I already have, other than a bit faster lens at the wide end, and of course the full frame sensor and the benefits there. But I am hesitant about that as well. I would love to start selling some of my nature and landscape prints, and have started printing some at home on my Pro 9000 MkII and so far, for the most part I have been quite satisfied with the quality of the prints I can make at 13x19". Additionally, I have shot just over 7000 shots on my 60D since I got it in April of 2011 and I just dont know if I will be able to shoot enough to justify the upgrade. I consider myself an enthusiast with aspirations of more.

Has anyone in a similar situation made the jump? Just looking for some advice at this point. I am not at all unhappy with my kit now, but I think I might be ready for full frame and the benefits it can provide for the type of shooting I do... just not sure if it is worth it yet.



Dec 30, 2012 at 06:52 AM
saneproduction
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p.1 #2 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


What is the total cost of the upgrade you want to make? Compare that against the potential gain of 1 stop better high ISO (more at 6400 12800 and beyond), wifi teather and shallower Effective DOF. Also your 70-200 would act like it made to do.


Dec 30, 2012 at 07:03 AM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #3 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Hi Mashuto,

Seems you understand your two EF-S lenses will not be usable on the 6D, so we'll move on to your first issue, crop vs. FF...how do I know it's worth it to upgrade...spend all that money?

Short answer, you need to bring the 6D's images home and work with the files personally, you must view them, post process and print these images and compare them with your 60D's output; results. This will help you decide if the upgrade in IQ is worth moving from crop to full frame.

1st, make sure your current post processing and printing software supports the 6D.

2nd, To most cost effectively review the 6D's IQ potential, features and cost justification, do one of the two options below...shoot both RAW and Fine Jpeg, at as many ISOs as you can...bring your own SD cards, one for each body, keep the images separate.

- rent the 6D and test shoot it, even for one day if you can afford it; read the manual before you do this, you can download it from Canon's website.

- or, a less costly, but potentially less effective option, ask your local camera shop if you can test shoot your 60D kit along side the 6D. Most shops will have a demo body and lenses that will match your current kit and they usually will let you take a few indoor test images;ask if you can do the same outside the shop in daylight as well...if the shop is in a closed mall this is probably not going to be possible, but ask anyway.

Once you've got some test shots, get home and study, post process and print the images, see 1st hand how the images look and feel; fit into your work flow, how well your equipment handles to new files, storage requirements.

I've been shooting for 4 decades and have found it very helpful to find a local photo shop and explore, become a regular customer, even if it's just buying accessories they will help you. I still shop, explore, just look around, in the same store where I bought my 1st 35mm film camera; that was back in 1978

Good luck, most of your questions can be discovered personally, with the 6D in your hands, images for you to work/print with...pixel peep, post process and print the crap out of both the 60D and 6D test images, Make your best effort to do this before you spend your hard earned monies on something you may or may not need.

PM me if you'd like, a 6D will be in my kit around April, I'm looking forward FF greatly...but I have a few years of experience with the original FF bodies/lenses, namely film, to help me decide; I've also shot and worked with the FF 5Dc and 5D2 bodies. Give a serious look at the various 6D treads here on FM, check out the images posted, send a PM or two to the members that are using the 6D and ask them if it's FF images are worth the expense.

Happy New Year
Jerry



Dec 30, 2012 at 09:09 AM
Gochugogi
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p.1 #4 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


I recall when I upgraded from a 10D to a 5D I had similar concerns. Of course once I had the 5D in my hands I felt like I had finally arrived home and all doubts disappeared. The first striking difference going from small frame to full frame is how easy it is to compose and keep horizons and verticals straight. That FF viewfinder is huge, bright and worth every penny extra paid for it. The next shock came when viewing those ultra smooth almost grainless (compared to APS) images on a Cinema Display. And of course the huge and smooth prints.

Not that the 60D is only worthy or tossing in a can after acquiring a 6D. They make a great team with similar feel, controls and complimentary abilities: 60D for reach and the 6D for wide, portraits and big print. I use a 7D/5D2 combo and am very happy with the performance of the combo and the 60D/6D should be even better matched.



Dec 30, 2012 at 10:15 AM
CW100
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p.1 #5 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto wrote:
I am hesitant for a few reasons. It is a lot of money and it feels as though with the gear I have chosen, I will not be adding any real major features over what I already have, other than a bit faster lens at the wide end, and of course the full frame sensor and the benefits there. But I am hesitant about that as well. I would love to start selling some of my nature and landscape prints, and have started printing some at home on my Pro 9000 MkII and so far, for the most part I
...Show more

try renting before buying



Dec 30, 2012 at 11:27 AM
Mashuto
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p.1 #6 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


saneproduction - I am looking at probably around $4k for the total upgrade, which I can hopefully offset to around $2k if I am able to sell my current crop lenses and body. At that price its definitely easier to swallow, and if this camera is a better tool for me to take my photography to the next level, thats worth it. Having never shot full frame though, I dont know.

StillFingerz - Yes, I have done plenty of research and I hope my questions are not basic or stupid. I am well aware of what moving to the full frame body means in terms of my current kit. I know that what you are suggesting is probably the best idea, but I have somewhat limited access to be able to test one first hand. I might potentially be able to head to a shop and test one out, although the guy on the phone seemed somewhat less friendly than I would have hoped and almost seemed bothered that I was calling...

Gochugogi - Having a larger brighter viewfinder is definitely a huge plus in my book, even if it does not have 100% frame coverage. I do not mind a little cropping in post if need be. As much as I would like to keep the 6D as a backup, especially for the extra reach, I am not sure that is feasible and the maybe $600 I could get for the body would definitely make it easier to eat the cost of the new purchase.

CW100 - I will see if this is a worthwhile option for me.


Any other opinions? I dont want to start a debate about the merits of FF vs Crop, but I would definitely like some opinions on the upgrade, especially considering the type of shooting I do.



Dec 30, 2012 at 04:45 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #7 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto -- First of all, I wouldn't sell the 60D and EF-S lenses. You have a really nice set up there and won't generate enough from the sale to be significant toward a replacement.

That said, I do recommend you get into full frame, and I like your plan, especially the 16-35L II. You could start with that, get a little 40 STM and be off and running with your 70-200L.

Like Gochugogi, I moved from 20D to 5D, and didn't look back until the T2i for my "back-up" and it's great video and higher MPs. I still have the 60D and love it for my trouble free and worry free camera -- I don't worry about it getting hurt, so it is less to think about in some situations. But I am primarily a full frame photographer.

You might just ease into full frame with a used 5D2 and old EF 28/2.8 (or 35/2) to immediately start out. But the 6D is certainly an attractive option and ergo complements your 60D nicely.

Good luck deciding.

I wouldn't spend $100+ to rent a body and FF lenses for a week -- that's just a loss against your future purchase. You aren't likely to rent all the options of full frame to do a real comparison, so what's the point? -- you pretty well know what you want to do already.



Dec 30, 2012 at 05:01 PM
Mashuto
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p.1 #8 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Gunzorro - Thanks for the reply.

Unless I am completely off base with my estimates, I think I could probably get about half or close to half of what I need by selling the body and lenses. As much as I would like to keep at least the body, I am just not sure it is feasible for me right now to have both.

For my landscape shooting, my 10-22 has been my workhorse lens by a large margin. Honestly, without something similar (or better) like the 16-35 in my kit, I wouldn't even consider moving up to full frame as I would just feel incomplete without the ultra wide angles. And unfortunately, the cost is too prohibitive for me to make that jump while keeping my current setup. The 6D also appeals more directly to me than a 5D mkII, even though that can be had for significantly cheaper.

Although I have had the 10-22 for years, I made the jump last April from a Rebel XT to the 60D and the difference was astounding. I picked up the 15-85 at that time as well to replace my old 18-55 kit lens. While I could still produce great images on the Rebel XT, the 60D gave me plenty of extra resolution and image quality, especially ISO performance to work with, and the new lens was a huge upgrade both in image quality and usability. If moving to the 6D from the 60D is anything like the move from the Rebel XT to the 60D I wouldnt be giving it that much thought. It seems like IQ will be an upgrade, but for my purposes I still wonder how much, and that would be for both the body and the new lenses I would get. In terms of usability, the 60D was a huge upgrade, but I just cant imagine this new camera would be all that big of an upgrade beyond maybe the viewfinder (which was a very big deal for me going from the rebel to the 60D).



Dec 30, 2012 at 05:46 PM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #9 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto - that's a shame, that camera store just lost a customer. If you can't get out at least look around the web for some jpeg or RAW samples you can explore/exploit.

And I have to agree with Gunz, keep your 60D kit if possible.

If not, keep the 70-200 and get the 6D/24-105 kit, you will notice the crop factor reach loss, that just means you'll need to use the legs to get a bit closer...I'd avoid large animals with sharp teeth and or claws tho

Also, an extension tube set; Kenko's are very good, and a 1.4x t/c; extender will expand your kit pretty cheaply. I use canon's vII T/C and it works quite nice on the 70-200; I hear the vIII version is even better, much sharper in the corners...

When you make the move to ultra-wide check out the 17-40L, it's more then half the cost of the 16-35. I've loved the 10-22 on my 50D; it's the same as 16-35 on FF, but recently picked up a used 17-40 and although you do loose a bit of FOV, 97 vs 93 degrees, and a stop; f4 vs. f2.8, I; as a passionate hobbyist, just couldn't justify the cost of the 16-35 vs the 17-40. I use and get the full 17mm on my EOS-3 body and it's color, contrast and sharpness are great. There are some tamron and sigma f2.8 zooms that start at 17mm as well that are really nice. The canon 16-35 II is a killer, expensive lens, the best...repeating myself, do you need that right now.

My next 2cents, best to you on your decision.
Jerry



Dec 30, 2012 at 06:15 PM
Mashuto
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p.1 #10 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


StillFingerz - Thanks again for another reply. I am keeping the 70-200. Its a great lens, and it would complement a full frame kit nicely. I do find the reach lacking a bit on occasion on my 60D, but more often than not, I find things framed too tightly with it currently to get a whole lot of use out of it, so maybe a full frame will help. The rare occasions I try to shoot wildlife though will certainly be more difficult.

Again, as much as I would like to keep the 60D kit, I just cant swing that right now while going full frame unless I possibly hold off getting the 16-35, but as I mentioned earlier, leaving that off sort of negates the purpose of the upgrade in the first place.

About the 17-40 vs 16-35, well I think that might be a step backwards in terms of what I am looking for. I find myself often at 10mm and I honestly think I will miss that 1mm if I choose the 17-40. The 2.8 while not usually important to me, actually is sort of important as I have dabbled in night time landscapes/sky shooting and would like to do more. I find the high ISO long exposure performance a bit lacking with my 60d/10-22 and the wider aperture (coupled with better ISO performance of the 6D) is appealing to me. And since the 10-22 is my workhorse, I think I can justify the current cost of the 16-35 if I decide this upgrade is worth it.



Dec 30, 2012 at 06:46 PM
 

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StillFingerz
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p.1 #11 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto wrote:
StillFingerz - Thanks again for another reply. I am keeping the 70-200. Its a great lens, and it would complement a full frame kit nicely. I do find the reach lacking a bit on occasion on my 60D, but more often than not, I find things framed too tightly with it currently to get a whole lot of use out of it, so maybe a full frame will help. The rare occasions I try to shoot wildlife though will certainly be more difficult.

Again, as much as I would like to keep the 60D kit, I just cant swing that right
...Show more

Solid thoughts...and i understand. I'd seriously PM Rob Dickinson, he's a pro shooter in NZ, he is currently testing the 6D and is an avid 7D shooter; your 60D and the 7D use the same sensor. Rob has posted his 6D thoughts and images here on FM...check them out...but I'd PM him, he's a great guy to chat with and can give you his hands-on experiences with crop vs FF.




Dec 30, 2012 at 07:21 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #12 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto wrote:
Gunzorro - Thanks for the reply.

Unless I am completely off base with my estimates, I think I could probably get about half or close to half of what I need by selling the body and lenses. As much as I would like to keep at least the body, I am just not sure it is feasible for me right now to have both.

For my landscape shooting, my 10-22 has been my workhorse lens by a large margin. Honestly, without something similar (or better) like the 16-35 in my kit, I wouldn't even consider moving up to full frame as I
...Show more

You know your situation better than I do!

I'd hate to get rid of my 60D and 15-85 -- I keep the lens mounted all the time, unless something comes up. It's such a pleasant setup to just grab and start shooting, and it's saved my bacon on a couple assignments where Nikon AF and exposure caused me trouble. So, it would be one of the ones I keep around until it gets an upgrade.

If you sell the 10-22, and buy the 6D and 16-35, you'll spend around $3k out of pocket, keeping the 60D and 15-85. But that's just me.



Dec 30, 2012 at 08:22 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #13 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


I found the 18mp crop sensor (I used a 7D) to be fine for landscapes but I wanted a better choice of wide primes, which you just dont get on crop.

The 10-22 is IMO a better all round lens than the 17-40L which I use now, but the 17-40 is sealed and on a 5d2 produces better images ( purely because FF is sharper overall..)

Another thing I like with FF is the better colour accuracy and depth, really noticeable on foliage and skies.

Not sure why you would want a 16-35 when the 17-40 is generaly as good for landscapes.



Dec 30, 2012 at 08:34 PM
filmjuicer
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p.1 #14 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


I went from a 60D to the 5D MarkII earlier this year, and am happy I did.

The 60D was my first DSLR, after being a film shooter for nearly 20 years using mostly Canon EOS gear. While it is a great camera and had a lot of nice features and great image quality, when using the 60D I just missed the feel and operation of a full-frame camera. Coming from a 1N, the 60D was just a little too small and I missed the 35mm field of view and viewfinder.

When I got the 5D MarkII however, I felt right back at home and am glad I made the switch. Sure the 60D has a lot of extra nicer features (more advanced AF, flip screen, built-in flash with wireless trigger, faster continuous shooting, and 60fps video among them), I just missed my old format. I think it's purely a personal matter though, if someone wants to go to a full frame camera or not. Both the 60D and 7D offer a lot if camera with great image quality.



Dec 30, 2012 at 08:52 PM
Mashuto
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p.1 #15 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


RobDickinson - Thanks for the information, it sounds like the difference between full frame and crop will be noticeable. Sounds like I can expect better sharpness, color rendition and depth of the images, which of course is a main reason why I am considering the upgrade.

About the 16-35, as I mentioned earlier, there are a few circumstances where I feel I would want the 2.8, nighttime/sky photography when there is almost no light is one circumstance I have found myself unhappy with my current setup. With my 60D and 10-22 wide open at ISO 1600 I have done 30 second exposures that I just have found need to have the exposure boosted too much in post and end up quite a bit noisier than I would like. Maybe I am doing something wrong there, but I dont want to push the exposure past 30 seconds, and I am worried that pushing the ISO up farther will give too much noise. I do also shoot the occasional wedding and right now my lenses max out at about f/4 and I think it would be beneficial to have a faster lens. Of course, if the ISO sensitivity of the 6D is that much better, maybe that will be even less of an issue.

Also, given that I currently shoot a lot with my 10-22 I find myself often at 10mm, and I do wonder whether I will miss that extra 1mm, I know it sounds almost like nothing, but I also know its noticeable.

Anyways, those are the reasons I am considering the 16-35. I may be off base and it is hard for me to tell if I will really need that extra stop or extra mm. The 17-40 would definitely save money, but I then wonder if its even worth it to go to FF and 17-40, or just keep the 60D and 10-22.

filmjuicer - Thanks for the input. I think I want to go full frame, but having never shot FF before I just dont know if the cost and some of the (minor) trade offs are worth it.


... Very conflicted right now.



Dec 30, 2012 at 11:37 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #16 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Remember that the 6d will have over a stop of noise benefit vs the 60d, so f4 on FF is better than f2.8 on crop.

Someone should make a 14-16mm f2.0 prime...



Dec 31, 2012 at 12:23 AM
Mashuto
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p.1 #17 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


RobDickinson - thanks again, I think now that I consider it more, the camera should be able to make up that extra stop for me based on noise performance, and reuducing the cost of the kit by half the price of the 16-35 certainly makes it an easier decision

I think a kit made up of the 6D, the 17-40, the 24-105, and my 70-200 f/4 IS will be quite nice, and I guess if need be I can always add in some faster primes, perhaps that 40mm STM that everyone seems to like. Also gotta remember that I do have a 50 1.8 stashed away in my bag as well...



Dec 31, 2012 at 12:48 AM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #18 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


I'm guessing (in the US) that a 17-40L and a samyang 14/2.8 would be cheaper than a 16-35L.


Dec 31, 2012 at 12:56 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #19 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Mashuto wrote:
RobDickinson - thanks again, I think now that I consider it more, the camera should be able to make up that extra stop for me based on noise performance, and reuducing the cost of the kit by half the price of the 16-35 certainly makes it an easier decision

I think a kit made up of the 6D, the 17-40, the 24-105, and my 70-200 f/4 IS will be quite nice, and I guess if need be I can always add in some faster primes, perhaps that 40mm STM that everyone seems to like. Also gotta remember that I do have
...Show more


Fast prime - Samyang 35 f1.4? It might be worth a look.



Dec 31, 2012 at 01:00 AM
Mashuto
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p.1 #20 · 6D upgrade from 60D worth it?


Yea... Well I think I have a good idea of an upgrade path at the moment. The faster primes can come later when I have a real need for them.

Now the hard part is deciding if it is worth the upgrade or not. Or of course if its better wait a bit and see if the price drops. My current set up isnt going anywhere and still works great.



Dec 31, 2012 at 03:19 AM
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