binary visions wrote:
Uh. This is the very nature of being an early adopter.
Prices on goods drop over time. If you are an early adopter, you pay more money for the privilege of using it before everyone else. Is it shocking to you that technology prices drop after the initial release?
This isn't Nikon screwing you. This is you making a conscious decision to purchase a product on or around release day, with the knowledge that it will cost less money 6 months later. If you weren't aware of that, don't blame Nikon: it's the way virtually all markets work.
If a product is half-baked or poorly serviced, that has nothing to do with the pricing issue. Products should be finished and serviced well no matter what....Show more →
I don't see it that way. I see a brand building a loyalty by quality products & service. Then loyal customers can feel confident to blindly buying that brand's new product. In this situation, price is not the prime consideration (while it does have import)
Let's take the V1 (I'm personally knowledgeable about this). On paper the features made the cam seem to be worth 30% or more for comparable cams. Upon use; some features made the cam useless for some activities other Nikons have. Then the cam was reduced over 20% less then original in 6 months, thereby devaluing the resale value, then price became important. Kit released at over $850 now $350 less than one year later.
The manufacturer didn't support the pricing and brought out a cam that wasn't ready for prime time.
There's a taste of betrayal here. If you bought a unit in a 20 unit condo project for $500K and 6 months later the developer sells the same units for $250K, how do you think the original buyers feel?
I was an early adopter with the D7000 (that had a firmware redo in the first month) & the V1. I will not be an early adopter again, Nikon is too untrustworthy
Rags Hef wrote:
I don't see it that way. I see a brand building a loyalty by quality products & service. Then loyal customers can feel confident to blindly buying that brand's new product. In this situation, price is not the prime consideration (while it does have import)
You're buying consumer electronics. Consumer electronics drop in price rapidly. That's the way consumer electronics work.
There's a taste of betrayal here. If you bought a unit in a 20 unit condo project for $500K and 6 months later the developer sells the same units for $250K, how do you think the original buyers feel?
Pricing isn't arbitrary. It's set, whether electronics or real estate, by what the market will support. If the developer slashed prices, it's not because that developer wants to screw the original buyers - it's because he or she has determined that the condos will not sell unless they ask a lower price.
In this case, what if the majority of condos on new units dropped in value after 6 months on the market? Would you then feel cheated if the condo's value fell? You bought an item that, the majority of the time, falls in value in less than a year.
If you feel the original camera's quality isn't up to snuff, that's fair, but that doesn't mean Nikon has screwed you by following normal market trends. They may have screwed you by releasing a crappy product - it has nothing to do with a price drop, though.
binary visions wrote:
You're buying consumer electronics. Consumer electronics drop in price rapidly. That's the way consumer electronics work.
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Pricing isn't arbitrary.
Yes it is....
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It's set, whether electronics or real estate, by what the market will support. If the developer slashed prices, it's not because that developer wants to screw the original buyers - it's because he or she has determined that the condos will not sell unless they ask a lower price.
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It's because he doesn't care about the original buyers. I have developed condo projects and I always felt a responsibility to support prices. I would rather give away trips to Europe or BMWs with the sale. BTW would BMW or Mercedes drop prices like that? I don't know what your background is but you sound naive about business.
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In this case, what if the majority of condos on new units dropped in value after 6 months on the market? Would you then feel cheated if the condo's value fell? You bought an item that, the majority of the time, falls in value in less than a year.
Yes, I would and know of examples of other that felt that way
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If you feel the original camera's quality isn't up to snuff, that's fair, but that doesn't mean Nikon has screwed you by following normal market trends. They may have screwed you by releasing a crappy product - it has nothing to do with a price drop, though....Show more →
The dictionary definition of arbitrary is, “based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system”. You think Apple randomly chooses prices, as opposed to investing huge effort into choosing a precise price that maximises profit?
Nikon, despite its best efforts, is far from being a premium brand. Comparing Nikon to Mercedes-Benz or high-end condos is not useful. Nikon makes essentially disposable consumer electronics with a high R&D cost and low production cost. Of course the prices are going to fall, and fall rapidly, shortly after launch. Only vertical price restraints (anticompetitive in most markets) would maintain prices against market forces.
S Dilworth wrote:
The dictionary definition of arbitrary is, “based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system”. You think Apple randomly chooses prices, as opposed to investing huge effort into choosing a precise price that maximises profit?
Nikon, despite its best efforts, is far from being a premium brand. Comparing Nikon to Mercedes-Benz or high-end condos is not useful. Nikon makes essentially disposable consumer electronics with a high R&D cost and low production cost. Of course the prices are going to fall, and fall rapidly, shortly after launch. Only vertical price restraints (anticompetitive in most markets) would maintain prices against market forces....Show more →
I recognize this is a semantic dispute not entirely relevant to your argument (which I actually agree with), but Nikon makes low end to mid/upper tier products and I would reserve the luxury category for Leica, Hassy, etc. With that in mind, Mercedes is an apt comparison - I would consider them a mid-tier luxury car manufacturer and not the elite.
All that said, I agree with you - "arbitrary" indicates a random selection; essentially picking a number out of a hat. Nikon could just have easily priced the camera $5 or $5000 if their pricing was truly arbitrary. There is a method and strategy to their pricing, I have no doubt.
Edit: To clarify, though, I don't think that Nikon's pricing is strictly based on costs, as opposed to marketing forces. I think the point that early adopters get screwed over by price drops later in the life cycle is true and completely expected. A price drop of a couple hundred bucks during the holiday season several months after the body was introduced would not be unexpected or unreasonable. Had Nikon dumped the price 2 months after release, that would be different.
What about dropping the announced price about 150 € on first day of release to reach the price level of an just one day earlier announced competitor? That is what they did with D600. The body is now only 2 month later already "dumped" for another 350 bucks (€ not $). This is 500 € of a 2.150 € product That even did not have an competitor till last week. Of course I would support the opinion that (many) prices are "arbitary".
Dropping price on first day month or week of release I'm actually fine with. Much prefer rather since most good camera stores will refund you the difference without question.
Its a bonus
S Dilworth wrote:
The dictionary definition of arbitrary is, “based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system”. You think Apple randomly chooses prices, as opposed to investing huge effort into choosing a precise price that maximises profit?
Nikon, despite its best efforts, is far from being a premium brand. Comparing Nikon to Mercedes-Benz or high-end condos is not useful. Nikon makes essentially disposable consumer electronics with a high R&D cost and low production cost. Of course the prices are going to fall, and fall rapidly, shortly after launch. Only vertical price restraints (anticompetitive in most markets) would maintain prices against market forces....Show more →
Apple arbitrarily picks prices.... on a personal whim?... Absolutely yes, especially Apple. A strong personal control over a company who doesn't answer to anybody.. is the definition of Steve Jobs
Another founder with that much control was the chap at Yahoo, he however, wasn't as successful..
I believe Nikon to be a premium brand and Mercedes has been for years trying to downprice their models E to C to the 4cyl. to broaden market share. Mercedes doesn't cannibalize the product prices; one of the reasons I owned them for 20+ years. They have similar to Nikon product marketing structures (filling niches).
I believe it useful to use parallel analogies.
If you want an example of intensive marketing research to develop a product unsuccessfully, see "New Coke".
A strong leader with experience doesn't always need to rely on committees, who many times deliver mediocrity.
Wait Until December 15th
Nov 27, 2012 (commentary)--I still get tons of "is it safe to buy a D800" questions. My answer remains the same as before with a slight new twist: in the United States wait until December 15th if you're going to buy one. You'll thank me for that (and no, asking what this is about won't generate any additional information, so don't send emails asking what's going to happen on that date).
Thom Hogan also thinks the 800 model will be discontinued with only the 800E continuing on.
rjk55425 wrote:
Wait Until December 15th
Nov 27, 2012 (commentary)--I still get tons of "is it safe to buy a D800" questions. My answer remains the same as before with a slight new twist: in the United States wait until December 15th if you're going to buy one. You'll thank me for that (and no, asking what this is about won't generate any additional information, so don't send emails asking what's going to happen on that date).
Dollar to yen movement from .76 to .82 over the last couple of weeks will likely figure in a lot of Japanese manufacturers price adjustments worldwide. Expected to continue too. Watch the markets for added pressure on Nikon, Canon, etc
Finally, I'm going to re-issue and increase my warning: if you're in the market for a Nikon FX body, wait until at least December 15th. My warning has to do with pricing. Just as early Nikon 1 adapters are now wondering why they didn't wait, those shifting from DX to FX now may face some similar pricing displeasure. Certainly not the 50%+ drops that the Nikon 1 models have made, but if you like to preserve your Franklins (US $100 bill), have some patience. While FX bodies are doing okay, it appears that the sales are soft enough that Nikon will sweeten the deals in the US soon.
And this about the future of the two D800 models:
Dec 1, 2012 (commentary)--A couple of things I wrote in the past week seem to be prompting repeated emails, so perhaps I'd better clarify those things.
First, why did I predict that Nikon will drop the D800 and only make the D800E? This has to do with prices. With sales softening enough on the D800 now that we're about to see a significant discount appear in the US, things get tricky for Nikon. Nikon uses new product to reset price points. The D800 reset the original D700 price point (US$3000). But the D800 isn't likely to be updated for quite some time (three to four years if we use the D700->D800 process as a guide). Having it slide in price in less than a year would predict it would have to slide in price quite a bit over the course of its lifetime. Nikon's typical lifetime slide is 25%, thus a D800 that should hit US$2250 in 2015. But Nikon wouldn't want it to do so before then.
The D800E shouldn't really cost Nikon more to make: it's a lower volume production, which is why they charge more. The other reason for the E in the lineup has to do with video. I think Nikon thought that the D800 would become a go-to video camera, replacing the 5D as the poor man's Hollywood camera. The fear was that the E would trigger too many motion artifacts.
But people are buying the D800 models for their still abilities. They were the hot model this year because they basically gave grade school bragging rights to landscape and a few other shooters ("nah, nah, I can print bigger than you.").
What I'm predicting is that Nikon will figure out that by making only a D800E, and making it US$3000, they will be able to prolong the price point. This looks like a US$300 drop in price in the E model, but it's effectively a US$200 price increase on the D800 from where it will be in a couple of weeks. Everyone wins ;~).
