Communication With Your 2nd photographer

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monie2078
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p.1 #1 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

I was hired to 2nd shoot a wedding a few weeks ago by this photographer here in my city. I responded to a "2nd needed" ad on Craigslist because although I do mostly newborn and family portraiture, I like the excitement of a wedding every now and then. I've never shot one by myself, and I have no intentions of doing that for a while; I don't mind gaining some experience by 2nd shooting though.

Anyway, he says he'll probably only need me for 4 hours, and says he'll be paying $40 per hour. Again, nothing crazy, but I was mostly doing this for the experience anyway, so it wasn't that big a deal, really. We meet up the weekend before at a Starbucks, talk for a bit, and he goes over the details of the day with me. Over the next week, he emails me more specifics (it was a miltary/navy wedding held on the naval base in Newport, but I was to start the day by meeting up the groom at the Mariott) about the day, and all that.

The day of the wedding comes, and it all goes well without a hitch. After my four hours are done, I bid him adieu, and he transfers the $80 right there on his phone in front of me via paypal, and he tells me he'll be sending he rest after he recieves the files. Although he had initially said he'd hand me a flash dive to fill and mail to him, he at the wedding, told me that he would prefer if we did a 'google online drive' transfer.

After culling the images, I had about 436 RAW files. I shoot with a 5D II, so there were pretty large. The Monday after the wedding, we started communicating per the file transfer; he sends me a link via google, with an invitation to view/edit a folder, and asks me to fill it.

We had so many problems with this transfer that ended up taking us about a week and a half of steady communication, deletes, start overs, and a bunch of other stuff to finally get them all to him. The Tuesday that I sent the final file, I send him an email asking for confirmation on his end that all was well... I never heard anything back. I mean, I know he got them, I just wanted to be sure.

Over the next 2 weeks, I reach out to this guy via phone, text, twitter, facebook, email, and God knows what else. To clarify, the first week or so, I only tried once or twice.. When I didn't hear back, I'd send a text here and there, or a quick one-liner, asking if all was well, and stating that I was just trying to touch base.

After about 10 days of so of nothing from him, I leave a message on his wall.. The same kind; "Hi ..., it's just me again. I hope all is well, I'm just trying to touch base and make sure you got everything I sent".. I actually didn't go into 'onslaught mode' till about the 12th day.. I called about 8 times a day, sent about 4 emails a day, texts, tweets.. etc.

I had established at this point that he definitely was gettting my communications.. he was updating daily on FB.. So I know he was getting them. I just didn't understand why he was ignoring them. Could it be the money? I mean, it was only $80, and I know he got paid a lot more than that! Doesn't make sense, right? Was he unhappy with the images? Why wouldn't he just say..?

Like I said to my husband; "I don't know for sure that he's trying to screw me over, but I do know for sure that he's ignoring my emails"..Finally, I sent him an angry email about two nights ago, and threatened legal action if he didn't pay the balance. Ten minutes later, I get an email from PayPal informing me of an $80 deposit into my account.

He also sent me an email telling me that I was ridiculous, and that the "standard practice" is for the primary to make payment within 30 days of which he had plenty of time. He told me that I was ruined in this business that relied so heavily on word of mouth, and he would never hire me again. He said he had been on vacation, and that it when he's on vacation his phone stays off.

.. I've thought about this a lot since it happened... I know he was getting my emails, he had an iphone..! And as a photographer with no studio, his phone is most definitly his best friend. I mean.. I don't get it. My husband is convinced he was going to sccrew me over.. I would like to believe he wouldn't, but why wouldn't he acknowledge anything I'd sent? Why did he not pick up? Or respond to anything? He ignored the texts, the phone calls, the emails..everything.

Most of the photographers here are very experienced, so would you mnd giving me your 2 cents here? Did I jump the gun? Do you think he would have eventually responded? Is this standard? How would you have handled this as either the primary or the 2nd?

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:32 PM

joelconner
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p.1 #2 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

He may not have been planning to screw you over, but he definitely did not give you enough respect to respond to you in a timely manner.

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:42 PM

amonline
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p.1 #3 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

The standard is to pay upon receiving the files. Sounds like he was just sitting on the money. I'm pretty sure your hubby was on the right track. You did not jump the gun.

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:44 PM

Mitch W
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p.1 #4 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

Full payment on the day of wedding is fairly standard. I've never not been paid the day of. Either way, a simple contract with the primary would have helped avoid this problem.

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:49 PM

eSchwab
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p.1 #5 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

Standard practice is to return someones phone call or email. If you miss one it's understandable. If you miss 10 you're avoiding them.

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:50 PM

Robin Usagani
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p.1 #6 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

when I 2nd shoot, I usually hand over the cards on the wedding day and I get paid right then. The main shooter then mail me back the cards no later than a week later.

Oct 18, 2012 at 07:55 PM

coreymatthew
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p.1 #7 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

When I work as a second shooter I turn over cards at the end of the night and send an invoice via email when I get home. I pick up my cards a few days later and receive a check in the mail within about 10 days. I've been second shooting for the same photographer for a few years, so I've never been worried about non-payment or anything like that.

Your story definitely makes it sound like he was intentionally ignoring you. However, 12 days really isn't that long. Maybe he was waiting on a check to clear and was embarrassed to tell you. Maybe he really did have something personal going on and once you're emails and texts came pouring in, he didn't really want to deal with you anymore. Who knows. I don't think you were in the wrong at all to be sending emails/texts/phone calls etc. until you got a response. He definitely should have responded somehow, but threatening a lawsuit after only 12 days (over $80) probably wasn't your best move. Especially if it means you are going to be slandered now, even if its unfairly.

Oct 18, 2012 at 08:38 PM

Sarah Brewbake
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p.1 #8 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

I've never 2nd shot or had someone 2nd shoot for us that we haven't paid in full the day of the wedding. Normally if we have a 2nd (actually a 3rd since there are two of us) we give them the money in full at the start of the day. However we also have our 2nd shoot on our gear and our cards. And also surprised he didn't have a contract for you to sign, especially if you had access to the raw files post wedding.

I would have not been happy with him either! You did the right thing, sounds like he wasn't planning on paying you in a timely matter...or possibly at all. And his mistake for not giving you a HD to put them on, you bent over backwards to help him in that case. I personally wouldn't worry about him. Keep good documentation on everything just to be safe though! Sorry you had that experience and keep 2nd shooting! [: Don’t let one nutcase bring you down!

Oct 18, 2012 at 08:39 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.1 #9 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

When I've second-shot I'm paid at the end of the wedding if it's someone I haven't worked with before. If I know them well and we're friends I don't really care when they pay me, before/end-of-night/couple weeks later... whatever. Generally if I'm being paid after, though, it's because I've shot on my own cards, backed them up at home, and then we meet up for lunch the next week to transfer the files and take care of payment. Let's me use the occasional 2nd shooting photo I want for my portfolio and it gives them a backup of all the images I shot.

Basically, I wouldn't worry about this guy 'ruining your reputation' as they seem unprofessional in not sending you any sort of response. After more than a couple of emails they should have at least said hey I got your emails just really busy right now on vacation or whatever and I'll get back to you next week, thanks!

Oct 18, 2012 at 09:50 PM

Prettym1k3
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p.1 #10 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

Payment the same day is standard as far as I'm concerned. I always go home with cash or a check in hand. Even if I'm transferring the files later.

Additionally, this is nothing new seeing people blog, post to FB (both personal and business), and yet you'll be calling, emailing, texting, and you'll get nothing back. Us photographers (at least around my parts) are notorious for being horrible at communication, and this guy just seems like he/she is a run of the mill photographer who needs to go back to a junior college and take Business 101, and a communication class.

Bummed for you. That's really frustrating. I'm sorry.

Oct 18, 2012 at 09:51 PM

monie2078
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p.1 #11 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Corey, you're right.. And I'd been thinking in that same direction myself. I felt really childish writing and saying "stop ignoring my emails!", so I brought up the money instead, which wasn't even really what I wanted from him.. Its still sitting in my paypal account. I just didn't know what else to use to get a response. To avoid him feeling like this,I also made sure to not cross the 'pestering" line till over a week of occasional phone calls/emails.

I'm just perplexed as a whole.. Before he got the files, he would respond within minutes, and the longest he took was about an hour or so... Then he got them and just fell off the surface of the earth.. and I just didn't understsand why. I still don't..

Mitch was right about the contract, too. Its going to sound crazy and ridiculous, but the ONLY reason I didn't demand one was because of how paltry an amount was at stake.. I felt like he had more to lose from the deal (say I opted to bolt with the images, or took crappy pictures), and as I had no intentions of duping him, I figured it was a pretty good win/win situation.

.. Contract next time for sure. I have no clue why this entire situation bugs me so, but it does.. If nothing else, I would kill to get some kind of closure.. "I found you annoying and just kept putting off", or "I just didn't want to hear your voice", or "I found your texts annoying".. anything at all to explain why he really just ignored everything I sent for so long... Especially since I know for fact that he got them.

Anyway, thanks to all who responded. I appreciate your time and words..

Oct 18, 2012 at 09:56 PM

JR PhotoNY
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p.1 #12 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

I just went through a similar situation. Except I was hired as a main photographer to shoot a 5 hour engagement party for another photographer's clients. She was busy that day shooting a wedding so she had a friend post on this Facebook group of local photographer's who are looking for second shooter's or any other type of work. I was free and she chose me among other photographer's who responded to the Facebook posting. We spoke on the phone a few days before the event to get to know one another. She told me what type of event it was and that she was shooting their wedding next year. She then calls a day before the engagement party and wanted me to second shoot for her that morning for a few hours. She also said it would be great to meet before and she would pay me half of the money for shooting the E. party and the other half after handing over the files to her. She never called me that morning to second shoot. So we never got a chance to meet up.

I go out and shoot the engagement party that night. And what a great couple they were. Awesome people. They loved me and the entire family was very friendly. The photographer who hired me did do a great job informing me of all the details of the event and even gave me the clients email before hand. I had emailed them before arriving to introduce myself and just say hello. I get home that night and she calls me to ask me how the party was and stuff and we agreed to meet later that week to exhange files and money. That day comes and I'm waiting for her for like 30 minutes. All of a sudden she doesn't answer my calls, emails or text messages. So I think nothing of it at first because I still had the files and the clients email and contact info. I continue to call her all week and got no response from her. About a week later she finally reappears and tells me that she got into a real bad car accident the day we were suppose to meet. And that she forgot to call me. I know she was lying. The story was just too bogus. She then proceeds to tell me that she just booked the clients and got them to sign the contract that same day. And that she can now pay me. She had told me before hand that she had already booked them. So I caught her on another lie. So about a month later we finally meet and exchange files and money after dodging me and avoiding my calls for another 2 weeks. The clients got to see some photos of the event on my Facebook page and were thrilled with them. They told her how much they enjoyed working with me and how pleased they were with the few photos they saw. After all this she had the nerve to ask me to second shoot for her on the couple's wedding. Unbelievable!

I recently visited her Facebook page and there is a husband and wife begging her for their wedding photos from 8 months ago! What a way to run a business. Only good thing about this whole thing is that she pays very well.

Oct 18, 2012 at 11:00 PM

sherijohnson
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p.1 #13 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

if he was really going on vacation, it would seem he would have told you that he couldn't be reached for whatever reason beforehand

Oct 18, 2012 at 11:20 PM

mccallmedia
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p.1 #14 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

This sucks. I freelance for several things outside of wedding photography and have had a few experiences where I had to really work to get my payment. The worst was some graphic design I did in January and didn't receive payment until about 6 months later in June.

I'm a member of the freelancer's union and have learned a lot about how to protect yourself to get paid through them, but I think this happens to a lot of people. Glad you finally got paid in the end but it's clear that paying you the remainder was not this guys' priority and if it weren't for you being persistent you likely would have never seen your money.

Here's the freelancer's union guide to help this not happen: http://www.freelancersunion.org/resources/unpaidwages.html

Oct 18, 2012 at 11:39 PM

Eric_M_Klein
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p.1 #15 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

Hi Monie,

I'm in Bellingham, MA and returning in November from a 1 year deployment with the USAF. I will be looking to reestablish my photography practice. I would like to network with area photographers about shooting opportunities.

Oct 19, 2012 at 10:20 AM

cordellwillis
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p.1 #16 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

sherijohnson wrote:
if he was really going on vacation, it would seem he would have told you that he couldn't be reached for whatever reason beforehand

+1
...besides, these days everyone can be reached at all times if we choose to. I'm sure if he had a new wedding inquiry he would answer it. My bet is that you were ignored for whatever reason.

Oct 19, 2012 at 12:47 PM

cordellwillis
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p.1 #17 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

monie2078 wrote:.... I have no clue why this entire situation bugs me so, but it does.. If nothing else, I would kill to get some kind of closure.. "I found you annoying and just kept putting off", or "I just didn't want to hear your voice", or "I found your texts annoying".. anything at all to explain why he really just ignored everything I sent for so long... Especially since I know for fact that he got them.
.....

No one likes to be obviously and blatantly ignored. I would say you didn't appreciate him not respecting you after the respect you gave him. The inner "win/win" was believed on your part but he chose to disregard it. No one likes that feeling. It bugs the sh!t out of me.

Oct 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM

friscoron
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p.1 #18 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

monie, I don't think a contract would have made any difference. It's just a piece of paper with a bunch of words on it. Sure, it spells out the expectations on both sides, but there are plenty of people who have broken contracts. So it's not the contract, it's the person. You just happened to have a bad apple. Most of us are really good about taking care of our 2nd photographers.

I don't think you handled it inappropriately. I'm amused that you threatened legal action and the schmuck finally responded to that. He's not going to ruin you. In the future, I would set up a different way of transferring the files, more along the lines of what Todd described. Either exchange at the end of the night, or meet for lunch or whatever in the next week and exchange. Transferring a bunch of RAW files over the internet can take awhile. Hope this helps!

Oct 19, 2012 at 01:00 PM

brianclary
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p.1 #19 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

For second shooters, I provide them with the cards to shoot on. The cards are labeled and organized in a case, and that's what they use to shoot with. I get my cards back at the end of the night before we leave the venue. My second shooters are paid in advance of the wedding (these are people I have met before, and I know them). They're paid a flat fee for 8hrs. If they want to stay later than 8hrs, great. If their camera has dual card slots and they want to keep copies, great. Has worked well for me so far. I may get burned one day handling things this way, but I'm ok with that.

The lack of communication on the primary shooter's part was inexcusable IMO.

Oct 19, 2012 at 01:22 PM

joelconner
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p.1 #20 · Communication With Your 2nd photographer

I must be one of the few people that does not pay their shooters the day of...that surprises me.

Oct 19, 2012 at 01:54 PM

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